A few weeks ago a friend of mine tweeted and asked: Continuing the debate: If your partner goes to strip clubs or watches Porn… is it considered cheating in your eyes? I’m a NO on this one…
I responded with: I say yes. I want my significant other seeking all forms of sexual gratification with me, not outside sources.
The majority of respondents in a poll she put on Weddingbee said no, but most clarified below that they thought the intent is what mattered, not the actions. I think that time spent with pornography or at strip clubs is time where he could, and should, be using me as his sexual outlet. I want him to depend on me, as I depend on him. It brings us closer together, and forces us to communicate openly about our needs and desires.
I believe pornography to be one of the most destructive forces at work in the world today. I have already stated why I find it so destructive, because it allows a person to seek sexual gratification through outside sources, rather than with a spouse. If there are problems in the relationship, those involved should sit down and have a discussion about their needs, not run and hide from the problem by finding another means of satisfaction. I believe gratification that sexual activities provide in a relationship is a need, not a want, and there is something so beautiful about being the only one who can give that gift to my husband, and he to me in return.
My husband and I talked extensively about pornography before we were married, and made sure that we had the same expectations surrounding the use of it. I do not believe that enough couples are discussing this topic before marriage. I believe a majority of marriages could be saved from being destroyed if it were.
Does this mean I think pornography should only be avoided if one is a in a relationship? Absolutely not. Pornography is addictive. ADDICTIVE. How do you think they make so much money creating it? Smoking is addictive, gambling is addictive, alcohol is addictive, and all of those industries are some of the richest in the world, because participants face such momentous physical and emotional challenges when they attempt to overcome them. Pornography doesn’t just destroy families. It doesn’t just destroy relationships. It destroys individuals.
Also, I do not believe pornography is a problem exclusively for men. It is traditionally defined as images or videos containing sexually explicit material, but I think many novels should be labeled as pornography as well. Any source that one uses to seek sexual gratification from, rather than ones significant other, would be considered pornographic in my eyes. Women are exposed to these things all the time, and although I don’t believe they are drawn as drawn to it as men are, they can just as easily be addicted.
I’d love to hear some thoughts on the following questions I have:
- Did you discuss pornography when you were dating?
- Do you have guidelines for pornography and its role in your current relationship?
- Do you believe that pornography, when viewed as a couple only, can have harmful effects on a relationship?
- Do you believe that pornography, when viewed individually, can have harmful effects on a relationship?
- And, would you be willing to anonymously share your story in how you dealt with the harmful effects of pornography in your own relationship? (It doesn’t have to be anonymous, but I assume that most interested parties would want it to be.)
Part II with an article about discussing pornography with your significant other can be found here.
July 16th, 2009 on 9:45 am
I think women who believe pornography isn’t destructive have never seen the power it can have to control a man’s life and men who say it isn’t destructive are lying.
I saw how it can destroy someone emotionally, spiritually, and physically to someone I dated as well as a man that I admired above all other men in my life. It is NOT harmless. Like you said, it’s an addiction. My mom knew a guy that was addicted to heroine and pornography and he said porn was the hardest addiction he ever had to break. What does pornography do? Among other things, it creates unrealistic expectations. You have to draw the line somewhere. Where does that line start? If someone says a LITTLE porn is okay, isn’t that what Satan is whispering in their ear? There may be men who can view it and not become addicted, but I wouldn’t take my chances.
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July 16th, 2009 on 9:50 am
I have to say that I like that you state – “I believe gratification that sexual activities provide in a relationship is a need, not a want, and there is something so beautiful about being the only one who can give that gift to my husband, and he to me in return”
I get so, so, so tired *and scared* of hearing my friends in long term relationships, or marriages, talking about how the frequency of their sex is measured in times per month, instead of per week. The old tired jokes on Everybody Loves Raymond of how he has to beg for sex, couples that go years- years!- without having sex. I read feministmormonhousewives.org, and they had a guest post about a husband really upset about how his wife basically said she’d just been having sex with him all these years because she had to, and she was done. When he told her he wanted a sexual relationship with her, she told him that would mean divorce, and then she asked him if he would lose his kids for sex- making him feel like some kind of a pervert for wanting sex with his wife
The comments were pretty evenly split, but a lot of the women viewed sex in a relationship as a want, not a need. Many of them spoke of once in the past 6 months, a few times in the past year… and of course it goes the other way, with women desiring sex and the husband not being into it, albeit less rarely.
I’m not blaming pornography use on one spouse or the other not giving themselves to the other, but it just seems sad to me that adults in what is supposed to be a lifelong commitment can expect their partner to get sole sexual satisfaction from them, and then got *give* them any sexual satisfaction. It doesn’t seem fair.
I feel like I should also say that I don’t believe this attitude is specific to feminism, it was just a guest post on a feminist blog. I consider myself a feminist because I fit the definition- I believe in equality for men and women- but denying sex consistently in a committed relationship doesn’t help anybody.
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Jenna Reply:
July 16th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
I read that post as well, and I’m appalled by the selfish attitude of so many women out there. I don’t believe a woman should just roll over and take it if her husband wants to be intimate, but you are asking that he be faithful and true to you, and then you deny him the thing that will allow him to do so.
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July 16th, 2009 on 10:03 am
I absolutely, completely agree, 100% with everything you said, Jenna.
After we had been dating for a bit — probably about a year — I found out that my husband was a porn addict. Apparently it started when he found his deceased father’s stash of porn as a teenager, and his mother did nothing to discourage him; after all, her husband frequented strip clubs and she had no problem with it, so she saw no problems with her son following in the same footsteps. She bought him a subscription to Playboy, and never thought that it might cause him relationship problems in the future.
When I found out, I made it very clear — pornography or me. Most of my friends share a similar view to my mother-in-law… that boys will be boys, and no big deal, but I was not willing to complete for my husband’s attention with porn. He held up his end of the bargain as best as possible… of course, there were slip-ups along the way, just like one can rarely stop smoking cold turkey (and of course, lots of tears and arguments with the slip ups), but he went into therapy and swore he would do everything in his power to stop.
I never really thought about how it would affect our relationship long term… but now that he’s moved away and I’m not around him and have no idea what he’s doing, I’ve found myself overwhelmed with a fear that he’s going to slip back into his pornography habits, and I’ll have no idea. I have no reason to suspect that he has regressed, but I think it was so emotionally draining on me before that I’ve become paranoid about having to go through it all again. Like I said, I have no reason NOT to trust him right now, and I think it is a big shortcoming on my behalf to be so paranoid when he has done nothing remotely suspect.
All in all, however, I think my life would be much easier if I didn’t mind pornography in a relationship like the overwhelming majority of women (or had a mother-in-law who didn’t just hand over porn to her son)… but… that’s just not who I am.
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Amanda Reply:
July 16th, 2009 at 10:35 am
This sounds trite… but this is where forgiveness comes in. Let all the hard work you put into developing and improving your relationship be the foundation for your trust and love for him now. This doesn’t mean you can’t ask him about it. But remember that you went through hard things before as a couple-and your relationship (and you) are that much stronger because of it. And it’s okay to be paranoid. It’s hard. And rough. And you are going to have good moments and bad moments. Just make sure to talk to him as much as you can so that he can reassure you (as he is the only one who can).
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Amanda Reply:
July 16th, 2009 at 10:36 am
And just want to add this in-you’re tough. And amazing. And good luck. But I’m sure you don’t need it.
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Jenna Reply:
July 16th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Ahhh Julie, you amaze me! The more I get to know you (through the internet of course
), the more amazed I become. You’ve come through so much, and you are giving so much back in return.
Good for you for sticking it out with him, and most importantly for putting your foot down. What if you two set up a system where you could check in with him every once in awhile? It could even be a code word or phrase so that it doesn’t feel as stinging as the question “Have you been looking at porn lately?”
If he also believes that porn is detrimental to your relationship, then he will want to work with you to make sure it doesn’t destroy it, even though it might be hard.
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July 16th, 2009 on 10:30 am
Way to go, continuing this hot-topic discussion, Jenna!
It goes way beyond a religious issue, as you mentioned. My husband recently gave a sermon at our [mainline protestant] church and used a Jill Manning article for a lot of his sociological research. Some of the things he found:
When it comes to INDIVIDUALS:
Exposure to pornography puts you at a significantly increased risk for developing sexually deviant tendencies, committing sexual offenses, and trivializing rape. You are also at an increased risk of behavioral and sexual aggression and for experiencing difficulties in intimate relationships.
When it comes to your MARRIAGE:
They have found that people who were happily married were 61% less likely to be viewing internet pornography.
Internet pornography is cited as being a significant factor in 56% of divorce cases.
Pornography negatively impacts your self-assessment of sexual experience and it reduces your satisfaction with your partner’s physical appearance and sexual performance.
This is the hardest one:
When it comes to your CHILDREN:
In homes where pornography addiction is present children can expect to encounter any of the following:
1) Decreased parental time and attention
2) Encountering the pornography their parents view
3) An increased risk of parental separation or divorce
4) An increased risk of consuming pornography themselves
5) Increased risk of parental job loss and financial strain. (20% of men access pornography from work).
In a 2003 study, over two thirds of children surveyed knew about their parent’s struggle with online internet pornography before their parents told them.
****
There are many other reasons for avoiding it, and staggering statistics related to this. I just wanted to name a few.
We have obviously discussed this issue. We have online accountability sources in place (one program called X3 records all questionable sites you visit and sends it to a person of your choosing–even to your spouse if you choose! That gets dialogue going.)
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July 16th, 2009 on 10:45 am
I usually post under another pseudonym, but as it’s linked closely to my actual name and other identities I have on the internet I’ll go anonymous for this out of respect to my husband.
I agree — pornography is ABSOLUTELY addictive and very destructive and hurtful, not only to women but to men and to the relationships between them. This is my story:
I had been “officially” dating my husband for a month when, after a week of phone calls and emails getting shorter and more depressed, he made the phone call that he thought was going to end our relationship — to tell me that he was addicted to pornography and masturbation. After 10 years of living with this sin bearing down on him and trying to maintain his identity as a Christian, he felt worthless, disgusting, and like he was totally unworthy of being loved by me. He asked for my forgiveness for not only the years he’d spent on self-gratification, but also that for the few months that we’d spent together so far, he had allowed his addiction to overpower the way he knew we should be acting, and while we never had premarital sex (in any fashion) there was a lot of inappropriate touching.
He did not expect me to be able to forgive him, or if I did, he did not ask me to stay in a relationship with him. I’m not sure how I did it, but that night I said the words “I forgive you” and I went from there, just trying to live out forgiving him every day. He never went back to pornography after that day, although he agreed to install a tracking program on his computer that would email me if he visited a questionable website. He continued to struggle with self-gratification, but every slip-up brought a confession within hours after the incident. He continued to feel worthless and disgusting every time he had to make such a confession, but I think having me there to say that I still loved him and found him worthy really made a difference to his ability to keep going, keep fighting his addiction. I had many, many days when I cried, when I felt disgusted by what he had done, when I felt that he could never look at me without thinking of all the anonymous women he’d seen before me. Sometimes I let him know how I was feeling, sometimes I didn’t. I kept trying to remember, though, that I had forgiven him, and so had God, and his sins, though they still hurt, were removed from him “as far as east is from the west”.
It’s been three and a half years since that phone call. We’ve been married seven months. He says there are still little temptations now and again, but they’re all easily handled through telling himself, “You have a wife, she will be home in X number of hours and if you still feel this way she’ll be more than happy to take care of it for you.” I don’t let myself think it’s over, because I know addictions typically take at least 5 years to beat completely. But it’s so much better than it was. I love him more than ever, and I think our understanding of sin and forgiveness is stronger and deeper from having come through this trial.
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Jenna Reply:
July 16th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Thank you so much for sharing. I have seen relationships crumble because of pornography, and although I don’t think everyone should stay together and work through it, I worry about how the addict is going to be affected by the rejection in the long run.
I think if more couples started broaching the subject while they were dating AND more women (and men if the problem is with the woman) would be more willing to forgive and work through the issues, that those addicted could end up having healthy and satisfying relationships.
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SameAnonymousAsBefore Reply:
July 16th, 2009 at 10:33 pm
Thank you for appreciating the story.
And I agree, I have never, ever appreciated the attitude of “once a [undesirable thing], always a [undesirable thing”. There are some relationships that just can’t be salvaged, some people that we need to let go and love and forgive from a distance, but everyone needs love and forgiveness. I couldn’t not give him the same chance that I know I’d want someone to give me.
Also, our porn issue wasn’t just one-sided… I occasionally indulged in smutty online romances (I had discovered them in book form as a babysitting teenager…) and I had to confess that and give it up for him. It was hard to think of it as the same at first, and so very tempting to go back, but I suppose it’s like not drinking around your alcoholic friend… it’s not only a sin issue for me, it’s a respect issue between the two of us.
Just for “statistic” purposes, btw, I’m not LDS but am an evangelical Christian.
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July 16th, 2009 on 10:54 am
Re. the Weddingbee poll… doesn’t seem right to me to lump pornography and strip clubs in together. I bet a lot of women would have answered differently to that question if it were just one or the other.
I’m mega-liberal, but I do agree that we live in a society that’s unhealthily saturated with pornography.
I’m really interested to see you tackling this issue, Jenna, and fascinated as always to read about your world view and experience, so different as it can be at times from my own.
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July 16th, 2009 on 11:03 am
I disagree with some points, but I can see what you’re saying, and respect the fact that you raised what might be a tricky topic, and one that you probably disagree with the majority on.
Personally, I don’t feel like porn or strip clubs are cheating. I would be concerned if my partner used them often. But if there’s a bachelor party, and they go to a strip club, I have no issue with Mr Button going. And if I’m away (for example, I’ve been overseas, and we haven’t seen each other for 2 months), I have no issue with him looking at internet porn.
And sometimes we have used it together, and I definitely have no issue with that;
I think I might see it slightly differently when we have children, and get married. (For example, I would hate for our children to stumble across porn on the computer). But if it started to feel bad to me, our relationship is strong enough to work it out. And I would definitely raise the issue.
For now, I’m totally happy with the level, and we have discussed it…
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July 16th, 2009 on 11:10 am
While I don’t consider it cheating, I do think it can be extremely destructive to a marriage or long-term relationship.
The larger problem about porn/strip clubs is that it ties back to how healthy the relationship is in the first place.
When a man isn’t willing to be fully open with his wife or partner about certain things in their lives, where is the trust? They’re not being honest to themselves or to their partners.
In my marriage, my ex-husband was extremely secretive and defensive about his porn watching. When I would approach him about it, he would make any kind of conversation impossible, and in the big picture, his reactions were part of a larger problem altogether, which goes back to the health of the marriage in the first place.
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July 16th, 2009 on 11:38 am
Wowee, you are one brave blogger to tackle the issues you do! But I have to give you HUGE kudos for doing it. I agree with you 100% – and you gave me a few more reasons for agreeing in this post. Thanks for sharing!
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Jenna Reply:
July 16th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
I’m definitely going to have an increase in my spam after this
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July 16th, 2009 on 11:40 am
1. Did you discuss pornography when you were dating?
Yes, we did. We were definitely on the same wavelength – that it is not good at all.
2. Do you have guidelines for pornography and its role in your current relationship?
Basically, there is no place for it with us. That’s why we have each other.
3. Do you believe that pornography, when viewed as a couple only, can have harmful effects on a relationship?
Yes. I won’t “supervise” lust. Who’s to say (hypothetically) that when we are intimate later he isn’t thinking about the “other woman”?
4. Do you believe that pornography, when viewed individually, can have harmful effects on a relationship?
Yes. See above.
This is definitely a great post, and truly needed. Thanks for sharing it!
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July 16th, 2009 on 11:50 am
I agree with Cate that porn and strip clubs don’t belong in the same poll. To me, there’s a vast difference between them. Strip Clubs is something I’m not really ok with, but I can live with it if it’s for a bachelor party or similar. My hubby got taken to one for his Bachelor party, and we did discuss it beforehand, and he asked me if it was ok with me. I said it was, because I knew that that kind of thing doesn’t really turn him on, and he feels kind of awkward watching strange women thrust their bits in his face
Really. I know I’m a lucky girl. If he got turned on by it and had to stop himself from touching them or wanting to go to a private room with them, THEN I’d have issues. But I believe him when he says he doesn’t.
As for porn, I don’t have a problem because it’s never been a problem for us. I’m going to be completely honest here and admit that I quite enjoy watching some together with my hubby occasionally. If it started being every day or even every week then I might think it was becoming a problem, but we have fun with it together, and that’s all it is. I fully agree that it can be a huge problem for some people, but I think Mr RS and I just view it as one form of sexual variety; something that we do sometimes because it’s fun and different. I love that we’re in that same mindset about it.
I also don’t mind if he, um, “enjoys himself” if I’m not home or something. Not a problem.
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July 16th, 2009 on 11:53 am
[...] Wife That Wife married to That Husband living That Life Discussing Pornography With Your Significant Other, Part I: My Thoughts 16 Jul Discussing Pornography With Your Significant Other, Part II: The [...]
July 16th, 2009 on 12:06 pm
1. Did you discuss pornography when you were dating? – I honestly can’t remember. I’m sure we did when things were getting serious. Talked about our sexual struggles and temptations of the past/present and what we thought was acceptable for our relationship.
2. Do you have guidelines for pornography and its role in your current relationship? – Yes. And the guideline is none at all. No movies, magazines, books, etc. It just doesn’t have a place in our relationship. And let me clarify that books like “How to Spice up Your Sex” (title fictional) I don’t necessarily consider porn. I feel that when a face or characteristic (since I’m prone to languish over characters in books) is attributed, this is where things get sticky. I/my husband begin to think more about someone that looks/acts like what we have seen or read about. But graphic illustrations/pictures or explicit language in such a book can be just as destructive.
3. Do you believe that pornography, when viewed as a couple only, can have harmful effects on a relationship? – Yes, I believe it is harmful. I look at it this way…Let’s say my husband and I were to watch a movie together, and then I can’t perform in the same way as the character in the movie. He will continue to have that image in his head. An illusion which I can’t compare to. He may begin to desire something like what was in the movie. I am highly emotional. So to read a book or watch a romantic movie and then compare that fictional man with my husband, only puts a divide between us. “Why can’t my husband be sensitive and caring like so-and-so?” And when my husband can’t live up to my ideals, I go looking for this illusion in the form of another man. Perhaps these are extreme examples. But I’d rather have a conservative line than a liberal line that gets crossed.
4. Do you believe that pornography, when viewed individually, can have harmful effects on a relationship? – Yes. Same reasons as above. Bottom line, it has no place in my life. It’s not worth hurting my marriage and relationships with others.
To sum up, I don’t want to share my husband. Plain and simple. Selfish as that might sound, I’m not going to apologize for feeling this way. As husband and wife we share a unique and sacred bond, which I have with no one else. A great part of that bond is encompassed in our sexual relationship. Why would of us want to bring in a third, fourth, tenth party? How unique and sacred is our marriage if its shared with others (real or fake)?
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July 16th, 2009 on 12:12 pm
I think I’m not exactly in your core demographic, and I understand that LDS members have religious beliefs about pornography, and that’s fine–I don’t think there’s really a way to talk directly about each other’s beliefs if one person comes from a certain set of religious principles and the other doesn’t.
I don’t think, however, that pornography is intrinsically harmful. I think much/most of it is incredibly degrading and can lead to unrealistic expectations regarding sexual activity, particularly if it’s someone who isn’t sexually active yet. That said, I think some of it is entirely unproblematic, and if couples find that watching it together is arousing, I have zero problem with it. And if one person doesn’t care if the other watches it by themselves, I have zero problem. I think the issue is with communication, making clear what each partner is comfortable with, and transparency (ie, not having it be a secret from one person) — not with pornography as a concept.
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Jenna Reply:
July 16th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
I agree with you about communication. If both members of the relationship are okay with it, then you might not have a problem at the time. But I am curious about what you think the approach should be if someone were to change their mind later on? What if you tell your spouse in the beginning that you are ok with him/her viewing porn, but the habits escalate? I see this as a very distinct possibility because I believe pornography is addictive, and even if one isn’t addicted at the time, it is always a possibility. So maybe the conversation for those who are saying “I’m okay with porn” should include the phrase “but I’m only okay with this much”.
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Ruby Slippers Reply:
July 16th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
I’m glad TJ has similar views to my own (I was beginning to think I was being TOO open-minded!) but I just wanted to add that my husband and I have spoken about the possibility of “too much”, and I will certainly speak up if I ever think it has become too much!
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TJ Reply:
July 16th, 2009 at 5:22 pm
Yeah, I absolutely think views could change later on, or that one partner could say they’re ok with only so much. In fact, I think a limit like “only if I’m also here” makes a lot of sense, especially for people who are worried that pornography would replace (rather than enhance) their shared sexual activity. My bottom line is that just as I think couples should work to communicate honestly about any other sexual feeling, desire, and development, they should try to be honest about how they feel about pornography. That might be “Actually, I thought I was ok with this, but I’m not.” I think growing as a couple should include the freedom to try new things and decide you don’t like them.
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July 16th, 2009 on 1:25 pm
I have to say that pornography has been a present and real struggle in my life and I encountered it at an early age and its effects can be emotionally damaging.
At a young age I stumbled across videos, magazines, etc that belonged to my dad. I knew I wasn’t supposed to look at them, I could tell that even though I never got ‘caught’ looking at them. Around the same time or within a year or so of finding these materials, my father had an affair. You can’t blame everything on porn, but I know it had to have played some part in a downward spiral for my dad. I definitely feel like seeing those images at a young age kind messed me up when it came to sex. I saw those images but was constantly told that sex before marriage was wrong and dirty and gross. But if it was so wrong and dirty and gross then why did my dad look at it? Very confusing for a child… young girl… teenager… adult! My parents put the fear of God in me and I was pretty much the only virgin in my group of friends when I graduated college. (Not that I have any regrets about that whatsoever!) I’m just saying it definitely is damaging…
When I discovered my husband (boyfriend at the time) was looking at porn, I was devastated. I felt like it could only mean that he wasn’t satisfied with our relationship and was looking for fulfillment elsewhere. I used to check his computer history all the time because I felt like I couldn’t trust him. I finally confronted him about it and he hasn’t looked at it since, at least not to my knowledge. That was 2 or 3 years ago. I explained to him how hurt and inadequate it made me feel…
I definitely feel like nothing good comes from viewing porn. It either gives people heightened expectations or makes them feel unsatisfied or not good enough for their partner. I am not okay with porn in any aspect in our relationship…
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Jenna Reply:
July 16th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
TH is a computer whiz so we’ll have very protected computers to keep our kids from stumbling on that stuff online, but one thing we are really going to try hard to do is initiate an open conduit of communication with our children. We want to work to make sure they know they can talk to us and ask us questions if they have them.
We are very strict about what we watch/listen to/read because we don’t want to get into habits that force us to have a double standard with our children. Although some subject matter is inappropriate for young children because they cannot emotionally handle the things they are hearing/listening to, we have eliminated all media from our life that would ever cause us to say “I can watch this but you can’t” without being able to give a logical and rational reason why. I never, ever want my kids to be confused or feel like they have to seek something out in secret because they don’t understand why they can’t view it. That’s not saying they won’t seek it out in secret because they are being naughty.
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July 16th, 2009 on 1:32 pm
Regarding your questions, no, my husband and I never really discussed pornography. It was just a complete non-issue; he’s not interested, I’m not interested. I know he doesn’t look at it (we share a computer and I know all his passwords/he knows mine) and that’s it. Of course, he’s seen it in the past and I have too and meh, no big deal. If he wanted to look around on the internet today, I’d probably be weirded out just because it would signal something was up (because he doesn’t look at it now). As for strip clubs, he’s way too sensible with his cash to go to them! He went to one for his 21st birthday and he complained about how expensive the drinks were. I love my cheapo dude. Also, if one of his friends were having a bachelor party at a strip club, I’d be fine with him going to that too. Again, I know my husband well enough that a) he’s way too dorky and b) he’s way too cheap to actually enjoy the experience.
Discussing finances, raising a family, long-term career/education goals, etc. were waaay more on our radar prior to getting married than bringing up stuff like porn. You said you know plenty of people whose relationships have been destroyed by porn. Seriously?
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July 16th, 2009 on 1:35 pm
P.S. I will say that one friend of mine had a (jerky, ex) boyfriend who only found her attractive in lingerie. Basically, if she wore sweats or t-shirts to bed, he was completely turned off. This seemed incredibly strange to me (and it was) and I guess that must have been an offshoot of him being around too many oversexualized images and having too high expectations? So in that case, I can see how porn/oversexualized images can have a bad effect on relationships.
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July 16th, 2009 on 2:44 pm
I don’t mind sharing my story with you Jenna, as it goes along with your post and your beleifs somewhat. By my “name” above, you can surmise that I’ve been married before, and that the marriage didn’t work out.
My first husband was raised in a household where it was considered acceptable for his dad to have porn. The kids knew where it was and snuck peaks at it constantly, and the mom was also ok with it being around, as long as she didn’t have to see it.
I wasn’t raised that way. The house that I grew up in was a strong Christian household, with beliefs like yours in the destructiveness of addictions of ALL kinds, porn included.
Shortly after we were married the issue of porn came up. No, it had not come up in discussions before marriage, as we met at church and his father was a deacon as was mine. I didn’t understand at that age (and maturity level) that there could be a need to talk about things regardless of whether outwardly you think it’s a problem or not. We had been married about 6 months when we were house-sitting at his parents’ one weekend and the subject came up where he tried to get me to look through some with him. As you can imagine, a big fight ensued. The subject was dropped, although I was extremely shocked to learn so much about my in laws and my husband.
About a year later, I found the stash of porn that he was keeping in his closet. When I confronted him about it, he convinced me that there was nothing wrong with it, and encouraged me to look at it with him. Being brought up that the husband is the head of the household, I went along with it and tried to be ok with things. That lasted about a day. After not sleeping all night long, and worrying about it during school the next day, I went home and talked to my husband about how the porn made me feel and why I felt so strongly against having it in our house. I was shocked and surprised when he listened to what I had to say and agreed to get rid of it.
Fast forward another year. We had been having problems for the past year, communication and other things, and things became so unbearable for me that I did the unthinkable and moved out of our apartment. He had asked me for a divorce twice before in the past year and taken it back, and had just asked for a divorce for the third time. I couldn’t take the emotional roller coaster anymore, and I thought that some space might help both of us know what we really wanted. I moved in with my aunt and uncle to finish my semester at college until the Christmas break when I could go home and try to figure out some things and we could try marriage counseling. When I stopped by the apartment to get some things out of the closet, I looked up at the top of the closet (not snooping or trying to find anything) and saw a familar box. Yep, you guessed right. It was the box of porn.
Right at that moment, I knew that I could NOT trust him anymore. That he was unfaithful, if not in actual deed, at least in trust. That night on the phone, I confronted him about it, and he said many, many hurtful things to me that he was never fully able to take back saying, even though he was later apogoletic about having said them. Most of the things that he said ran along the lines of the fact that I was “not enough” sexually for him, and that he “needed” the porn to be satisfied.
At that point it was the porn or me, and I told him so. He was NOT willing to put it aside, nor seek any help for his problem. I did the unthinkable and filed for divorce. It’s been eleven years since all of that happened, and I’ve been wary of things like this in my relationships ever since. Was the porn the reason for our divorce? Not necessarily, but it was a factor. Or rather, the fact that I could not trust him any longer becuase of the porn was a factor. Either way, it definitely played a role in the demise of our marriage.
With my current fiance, this was obviously something that I was anxious to talk about before even getting serious. Lucky for me, I found someone this time who agrees with my viewpoints on it all – he also believes that your sexual satisfaction and gratification should be found with your partner and no where else. I trust him completely on this issue, and that’s saying alot for me.
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July 16th, 2009 on 2:45 pm
Oh, Jenna, I wish I had more time to read all of this. I’ll say 3 things.
1. I completely agree, but I think you already knew that. Pornography is horrible! It is Satan on earth. It destroys lives.
2. I’m so so so so SOOOSOOO grateful to be married to a man that is open and honest and has never looked at another woman’s body and LOVES my body, which brings me to 3.
3. Sex is amazing! when shared with someone you love and done often. Sex makes life so much better – We’re both less stressed. We both have more motivation to work out and eat right. We talk more. Sex therapy with a spouse it AMAZING! And sex is just as good for women as it is for men. Some of us may not openly crave it like men do, but it can be wonderful for us. And lingerie should be worn often:).
That’s all. Love your hot topics.
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July 16th, 2009 on 3:01 pm
The definition you’re using of pornography is very broad–anything that stimulates sexual feelings. So while I would be very uncomfortable with my husband viewing hard-core porn, we find other forms of “pornography” very helpful to our marriage. Sometimes he’s interested in having sex when I’m not, and I’ll turn on my ipod with my playlist of music that helps to put me in the mood. (Other times, my needs come first.) And we both enjoy the sex a lot more when I’m in the mood.
We’re relatively new at this marriage thing, so we tried other forms of “pornography,” but I could see us experimenting with some in the future, and could imagine them strengthening our relationship by helping to equalize our sexual drives.
Just wanted to throw that out there–I think the broad defintion of pornography may obscure some of the contours of the debate.
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July 16th, 2009 on 3:04 pm
Hi
Thought you might be interested in this. http://www.pornnationthebook.com/
It’s a great source that I think defines what should be labeled pornographic and such. Our college ministry club invited the author to our college campus to bring awareness. It was a great experience.
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July 16th, 2009 on 3:54 pm
Jenna this has to be one of the most powerful posts I have seen you write (I’ve recently been reading older posts by you to catch up).
I dated a guy when I first moved to college who struggled with this exact problem. He was more than a few years older than me, well educated, successful, funny and well liked by those around him. In almost every sense he was the “Golden Boy” and I was constantly reminded by those around me that I was lucky to have found such a catch. Shortly after starting our relationship however, I realized that there was something different about him and the way he treated me. I made the choice long ago that there were certain lines I was not willing to cross before marriage and had stood by my commitment my entire life. I was under the assumption that my boyfriend felt the same way (we were members of the same church) and yet he was constantly trying to get me to cross those lines. Soon after I found out that he was struggling with an addiction to online pornography. He felt that it was completely justifiable and refused to talk about the subject, other than to try and manipulate me to think that I was overreacting and not being as understanding as I should. When I was not enough to satisfy his lusts -which I refused to do- he would cheat on me with the first girl he’d meet at a club or girls he associated with. The worst was that he would always manage to make me feel that I was at fault and if only I would be understanding, there wouldn’t be any problems. The way he treated me broke my heart and left me emotionaly damaged for some time. His use of pornography lead him to view me as an object, not as a person, and to treat me like as though I were worthless. His use of pornography also turned me into a person I was not proud of, though I was not being physically abused, I was being emotionally abused on a daily basis. When I finally escaped from the relationship I felt the greatest sense of release and freedom. I do believe that it is something that can be conquered and that a couple can move on and leave the damaging effects behind, but only if both parties are truly committed. It is a daily struggle for so many and brings into a relationship unnecessary heartache and contention. Thank you again for posting on this subject.
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July 16th, 2009 on 4:27 pm
I don’t really have a big problem with porn. I agree that people with addictive personalities should be extremely cautious, as is the case with most things for them, but that the majority of people can “safely” utilize it. I guess for me it’s like just because it’s theoretically possible that I could become addicted to alcohol doesn’t mean I’m never going to drink out of fear of becoming addicted. If you know yourself and can recognize what’s not healthy you’re probably ok. I think a lot of it is also based on religious views, of which mine don’t include a lot of sexual taboos.
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July 16th, 2009 on 5:09 pm
Good luck dealing with the spam from this post!
1. Did you discuss pornography when you were dating?
-Yes. I simply assumed that he must have viewed some at some point because just about everyone has. So I asked about it.
2. Do you have guidelines for pornography and its role in your current relationship?
-Not in our relationship in particular, but we have a shared understanding that it is not okay at all for either of us.
3. Do you believe that pornography, when viewed as a couple only, can have harmful effects on a relationship?
-Of course.
4. Do you believe that pornography, when viewed individually, can have harmful effects on a relationship?
-Of course, because it harms the individual viewing it, and thus must impact their relationships.
5. And, would you be willing to anonymously share your story in how you dealt with the harmful effects of pornography in your own relationship? (It doesn’t have to be anonymous, but I assume that most interested parties would want it to be.)
-Thankfully we’ve not had to deal with this issue as a part of our relationship. I always try to guard against the foolish confidence which assumes that “oh, my husband would never do that” but at the same time I have to appreciate the fact that my husband is the most chaste man I’ve ever known. Which is good, since I don’t think that it is okay for for him to use *anyone* as a sexual outlet, including me. Sex should ideally be a reflection of deepest love, not deepest physical desire, and we aim for ideals.
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July 16th, 2009 on 6:05 pm
My problem with porn is the abuse that happens with the women in the porn. I didn’t really know much about this until a class I took on Women and the Law. However, pornography is a protected free speech right, and from that point, I don’t think it should be censored because I don’t believe in censorship. Except when it comes to child porn, which is shameful and I deal with some stuff about that issue at work that would make people’s stomaches churn.
However, I know a person that works in porn (not a friend) and he makes only Utah porn. It’s basically soft core porn and it is making a lot of people a lot of money. It is actually the porn that is in the highest demand.
Porn is kind of a non-issue for us. We didn’t talk about it because Sean is not a porn guy. Some guys are and some aren’t, with that said I am sure that he has seen a few in his life and I am not upset in the least. I would have a problem if he was watching it now, just because of how we feel as a couple about objectifying women and I think most porn is creepy. I think strip clubs are okay for the occasional bach party, but our friends don’t really do that. It’s just not our style.
I guess my view if you see you porn once or twice a year I don’t really care but if it is an all the time habit then it becomes a serious problem because first you are wasting time and money that should be spent with your significant other, and second you expect your wife or girlfriend to be a porn star and you are no longer sexually satisfied. Then in this case, porn can be come a possible factor in a destruction of a marriage.
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July 16th, 2009 on 6:59 pm
Besides your frank honesty, I love the fact that you can present a topic with an opinion that’s heavily influenced by your religion without leaving your reasoning to a Biblical verse. It’s refreshing and non-condencending.
I agree with you on the fact that sexual relations is a need not a want. I always remember something my High School Biology teacher taught us. He stated that there were three (or four?) basic Human needs that always needed to be filled. 1) Food/Water 2) Sleep I think and 3) The desire to procreate/attain sexual release.
In regards to Pornography: If an individual is making a conscious choice of porn over their spouse, then there is definitly a problem. Do I believe the porn is solely to blame? Not in every case. Similar to food addictions, porn addictions tap into our basic needs but not everyone who eats has a food addiction or eats un-healthy. Same can be said for porn, in my viewpoint at least. When used in moderation, with the proper attitude and support from your significant other it can be fun. My husband and I have discussed it and are fairly comfortable with it, in reason. It does make an extremly (can’t stress that enough) limited and brief appreance in our lives, and it’s always sexual gratification with each other over porn to any extent.
I find it interesting that in a lot of the stories above where the relationship was terminated with porn abuse being cited as one of the resons, that the offender in the relationship seemed to have been exposed to porn at a young age. It could probably be reasoned that the “porn abuser” was exposed at a point in their life were the porn was able to shape their sexual identity into something with unrealistic expectations. Also noted in those same stories that the other spouse wasn’t okay with it to begin with. Similar to the decision of not having children versus having children, if you and your spouse are on completely different pages the marriage/relationship is likely to end.
But that’s just my opinion on it. =) If I didn’t ramble too much and it makes any sense of course.
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July 16th, 2009 on 9:23 pm
1. Did you discuss pornography when you were dating?
We are still dating, and it is a very common topic of discussion. Because…
2. Do you have guidelines for pornography and its role in your current relationship?
We have the same guidelines you do, which makes it incredibly hard to avoid.
3. Do you believe that pornography, when viewed as a couple only, can have harmful effects on a relationship?
Porn evident in any part of a relationship is harmful, no matter the context.
4. Do you believe that pornography, when viewed individually, can have harmful effects on a relationship?
See above.
5. And, would you be willing to anonymously share your story in how you dealt with the harmful effects of pornography in your own relationship?
Give me time to think on this one please.
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July 16th, 2009 on 10:30 pm
I’m totally with you, so I’m not going to type out the questions. Its wrong, masturbation is wrong, whatev. But I am not a sex kitten — but neither is my husband. We’ve talked about this in length and we’re good with the once a week routine — if we miss it one week, that’s OK with us. We might make up for it another week, we might night.
BUT – I’ve always said that I’d probably respond well to porn. Even a silly romantic comedy turns me on — but it turns me on to my husband, so I guess that’s good? I don’t know, I have never pursued watching porn to really see if I’d be aroused by it as a female — and I don’t plan to.
I don’t know it that provides an oddly different side of things, but I am totally against it.
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July 17th, 2009 on 1:22 am
Did you discuss pornography when you were dating?
Yes. When we were dating we said that we were sexually attracted to each other, and it was a topic that came up.
Do you have guidelines for pornography and its role in your current relationship?
I’m not sure what you mean by guidelines, because we trust each other with the choices we make as individuals and are comfortable enough to bring up something that bothers us aka “you should shower more/fold your clothes/lay off the ice cream/lay off the porn.”
Do you believe that pornography, when viewed as a couple only, can have harmful effects on a relationship?
I’m not sure, because I feel more comfortable partaking in pornography by myself than with my partner with me (at least, x-rated pornography, but that is not to say I feel uncomfortable watching a romantic comedy that happens to turn me on, with him in the room). For things that are ‘sofer’ that might get me going (romantic films, love stories, etc), I think it does help once in a while, but anything more intense I would rather not watch with him.
Do you believe that pornography, when viewed individually, can have harmful effects on a relationship?
Only when the communication isn’t not strong in the relationship to address any issue that might come up. For example, a woman in a relationship should be able to tell him if certain ‘moves’ don’t do anything for her, nor should a woman make a man feel insecure about any ideas pornography has given her about sex. For any issue that comes up, the communication has to be there to deal with it, otherwise it is just a disaster waiting to happen.
And, would you be willing to anonymously share your story in how you dealt with the harmful effects of pornography in your own relationship?
As I said before, I think it becomes harmful where there are other weaknesses in the relationship. If a man suggests they try something bizarre, his partner should feel fine replying with, “my god, you saw that in a porno, didn’t you?” and from there be okay to decline the request.
While there may be some people who become ‘addicted’ pornography, I don’t think I would classify it as addictive. If I never saw ‘official’ pornography, I would be fine. I have also drank and gambled in the past, but if I never did either of those again, I would still be just fine. This is not to say that alcoholics and gambling addicts don’t exist (or that I would ever try heroin or anything like that), but I do believe that there much more behind any and every addiction (food, drugs, cutting, sex, etc.) than simply the substance or action being ‘addictive.’
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July 17th, 2009 on 6:19 am
I think porn can be healthy in a marriage as long as it doesn’t interfere with the relationship. Personally, my husband and I are big fans of porn (and strip clubs). We enjoy it once in a while, but we’re certainly not addicted. Nor damaged as individuals. In fact, our openness and comfort with our sexuality has made our relationship even stronger over the past 8 years.
One’s sexual lifestyle is a very personal choice. I don’t think you can make a blanket statement that porn is destructive for everyone. Nor do I think porn is completely harmless for everyone.
I have close friends who are much more sexually deviant than I and close friends who are much more sexually conservative. I don’t think anyone should assume that their relationships suffer due to either their “deviant” or “prude” ways. What matters most is that the two partners communicate, draw lines on what’s okay and not okay, and respect each others (dynamic) comfort zones.
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July 17th, 2009 on 5:26 pm
Hi Jenna,
I’m a casual reader (stalker?) of your blog and I love it, mainly because we have a lot in common (same age, relationship status) but are very different (I’m an East Coast career gal, for instance). It’s really nice to see someone who is passionate about their beliefs willing to express those beliefs but also open up their blog as a forum for discussion!
Anyway, a few questions-what exactly do you consider pornography? I know a lot of people have asked this and I think in any good discussion, we should be clear on what exactly we are discussing. Defining porn is really difficult-I would not consider everything that contains nudity or sexuality to be pornographic. Are we talking about nude sculptures, the Victoria’s Secret catalogue, and movies with sex scenes? Couldn’t anything that excites a person be considered porn, even if it was not the primary intent of it (for instance, a magazine with a fully-clothes attractive model, music…) ? Or are we talking about things that are created with a sexual intent? There are lots of books, magazines, movies, etc that may show people having sex but I don’t believe they’re all pornographic. For instance, there are tons of explicit books that depict sexual positions. Lots of couples use these types of things as a how-to, to enhance their sex life. How do you feel about that?
I know other people have questioned the assertion that over 50% of divorces involve one spouse’s excessive interest in porn. I’m so fascinated by this that I’m definitely planning on getting in touch with the authors to find out the context. I would not be surprised if 50% of divorced people admitted to viewing porn on a regular basis because I think a huge percentage of the population does use some sort of pornography, so I would expect a large portion of married, single, divorced people to fall into that category. Another possibility is that porn is a contributing factor in 50% of LDS divorces. I say that with no judgment but since the church views pornography and masturbation as being absolutely wrong, if a spouse were to engage in such behaviour, I can see how that could be viewed as a violation of the vows they had made. A dear friend of mine (who is LDS) almost ended her relationship with her husband after discovering he viewed porn. He did not do it in secret and really was shocked at his wife’s response. This was in part because they had never discussed the subject, since it seemed taboo. My friend struggled a lot with the issue: she had been taught from a young age that pornography was evil, yet she had also been taught that marriage is a sacred commitment that lasts forever. She felt her religion told her husband was an evil person, but luckily she took her vows seriously enough to realise the importance of being open, honest, and considering things in context. The point that I’m trying to make is not that porn is right or wrong but we need to be careful about how we discuss it and the people who use it. I understand and respect all of you who believe porn has no part in your life, but I have a real problem with labeling those who view it differently as being evil or sinful.
As for me personally, I have a very different view of the issue than you. I don’t belong to any religion so my beliefs come from my personal experiences. Before moving to Boston, I lived in London, where topless “glamour models” are featured daily in the mainstream newspaper. I don’t avoid tv shows or movies that may contain graphic content because I think that’s the easy way out. I think it’s important to be exposed to that which troubles us (for instance, the trafficking of children is very disturbing to me but I still watch documentaries about it). I was exposed to porn at a somewhat young age (accidently). The troubling part to me was not the porn itself but what it signified (that my parents were sexual beings). I acknowledge the potentially harmful nature of pornography and masturbation but I believe sexual desires are natural. Many things that we desire we may become addicted to. People are addicted to food and even sex but that certainly doesn’t mean we should avoid because some people become addicted to them. I personally believe that being addicted to masturbation is less harmful than being a sex addict. Neither one is a good thing but masturbation is not going to lead to STDs or unwanted pregnancies.
As for me personally, my husband and I are very open about porn. It played a role in both of our lives before and since we met. It is used to enhance our intimacy, not replace it. There is nothing more important to me than the health and vitality of our relationship. Porn is never an escape from reality, it’s away to add variety and spice to our life.
Anyway, I had a more eloquent answer planned but I’m running out of steam and have gotta run. Thanks for allowing us to share our thoughts!
-Cristina
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July 18th, 2009 on 8:34 am
I met my husband in college, and he had several magazines and videos. While I had seen them in my brother’s room growing up I hadn’t really seen much. Most of the magazines were the “classic” 25th anniversary ones. And I was totally ok with this. That was about all we ever talked about it.
Now we have been married for many years (13) and we use porn together. Now it’s not the playboy ones, where its mostly pictures, but we read the random letters together. And in general we laugh and joke about how screwed up and how most of these things would never actually happen.
Have we each read porn when the other is gone, yup, and we are both ok with that. We know where we stand and that there really isn’t anything wrong with it. Do I trust him and he trusts me yup and porn or no porn isn’t going to change that!
I think there are certain times that as a human you just want to be pleased and not have to go through all the other work, sometimes foreplay is not what you want and I don’t think it takes away from all the other times I enjoy my time with my husband.
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July 18th, 2009 on 3:08 pm
We have no discussed the subject within our couple to be honest. Mentionned it when his roommate came to pick up his tapes… but he isn’t all that interested in it although I’m sure he’s seen some when he was younger.
I do believe they can damage individual and couple for the simple reason that they show you things that are not necessarily true. You tend to have expectations that are not realistic because whether it’s a novel (as you mentionned) or a porn movie they are not based on the reality of what a relationship is like (at least not a healthy one). And for women’s novels pardon me if I’m too graphic, but they make you believe that pleasure is so easy to reach and you get there everytime when in truth it needs work from both partners.
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July 20th, 2009 on 3:53 am
-Did you discuss pornography when you were dating?- Yes constantly.
-Do you have guidelines for pornography and its role in your current relationship?
It has no role in our current or future relationship.
-Do you believe that pornography, when viewed as a couple only, can have harmful effects on a relationship? – Yes. I think that it is just as harmful as a couple as it is alone. I dont really see the benefits in watching it together. It is addictive and would probably just lead to watching it alone, anyway.
-Do you believe that pornography, when viewed individually, can have harmful effects on a relationship? – deffinitely.
-And, would you be willing to anonymously share your story in how you dealt with the harmful effects of pornography in your own relationship? (It doesn’t have to be anonymous, but I assume that most interested parties would want it to be.)
My fiance and I have had to discuss porn alot. We’re christians so we definitely think its a terrible, immoral thing to become involved with. When we first started going out, at 14 I found out that he’d been on the internet looking at porn. He promised to never do it again, and I believed him. Fast forward five years… we were a year away from our wedding and he told me that he still did it. I was devastated! Even though I cant be his ‘sexual outlet’ yet, I still wanted him to try and be as pure as he could be for our wedding night. I didnt want him to have any preconceived ideas about what it would be like, or how I would act…I wanted to be the first female in ages that he had seen fully naked, or thought about sex with. I was so disappointed because I wanted as little outside influence as possible, Ive always liked the idea of our first time being like we were the first people in the history of the world to do it- completely natural. After he told me, we talked for hours and came up with a few things to help him… the biggest being disconnecting his internet- removing the temptation. Also, him seeing how much it hurt me really motivated him. My fiance revealing this to me helped our relationship because now he’s not scared to tell me anything… it really cleared the air for us. Its been a few months since that conversation and he hasnt watched porn or anything, and our relationship is better than ever. Im only starting to get over how much it hurt me and my idea of sex. However, I love him and how much closer we’ve become… and Im sure that sex with him is going to be just as good as I always imagined.
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July 22nd, 2009 on 10:19 pm
Thanks for posting about this – a very important issue that gets brushed under the rug all too often. You know what bugs me? Movies with their lame ratings. I idiotically thought “Good Luck Chuck” would be a cute movie based on the commercials, and I love Jessica Alba, so I got it to watch with my dh, bro, and sil. Oops! I still want to know how that’s not NC17 or completely unrated. What the heck?! And some of the stuff that’s rated PG13 is disturbingly mature as well. Ugh.
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