This post would have been a lot sharper, a lot more angry if I had written it an hour ago, but after some time spent T1 and listening to a Dashboard Confessional Pandora station I now feel like curling up into a corner and crying. And eating my feelings.
Based on your comments from my last post about an OBGYN visit I canceled my 2nd appointment with the lecturing OB and asked some friends for recommendation. All of the wives of the LDS guys that work with my husband go to Tuscan OBGYN and rave about everyone there, and though they all had hospital births I figured things would be better. I managed to get an appointment as a new patient on the very day my birth control sample pack would run out so I wouldn’t have to miss a day. After the disaster that was my appointment today, my stupid withdrawal bleeding is going to start up as my confused body adjusts to being back off the hormones again… but I’m getting ahead of myself.
(Oh, and the reason I keep going to an OB and now a midwife is that I want birth control, haven’t had a pap smear for 2 years, and suspect a yeast infection, and I want my visit covered by insurance. Several people have suggested a CNM, Planned Parenthood, or general practitioner. I have visited none of those before here in Dallas but I think they are a good choice for my third try at this.)
I ate, showered, got dressed, fed T1, changed a poopy diaper right before we walked out the door, loaded him in the car seat only to have him scream for the entire car ride there, took him out of his car seat, carried him up to the office, handed over the new patient paperwork I had filled out at home (you know, the pages and pages of it), sat in the waiting room for 20 minutes past my appointment time, was ushered back, weighed, asked the standard set of questions by the nurse, had my blood pressure taken, moved rooms, and sat and waited for the doctor to grace me with his presence.
He walked in and shook my hand, commenting on how cute T1 is (an obvious statement). He asked how long ago I had given birth, I said 9 weeks, and he asked me where I had delivered. I replied that it had been a home birth, and he went out of his way to turn away from his paperwork and back up against the counter in shock. His eyebrows raised and he asked “You didn’t see an OB your entire pregnancy?” Anticipating what was coming I told him that I had switched from a previous provider because I had been lectured on my choice to birth at home and that I was just there to get some birth control and would appreciate not receiving a lecture on my choices. He gathered up his stuff and opened the door, and I asked him to please stay and just write me a prescription for birth control because that’s all I wanted. He told me I was free to leave whenever I wanted and I asked one more time if he would please just stay and finish the appointment. He refused and left.
I left, announcing loudly in the receptionist office that the doctor had refused to see me and I would not be covering my copay (how lucky that I hadn’t payed beforehand, right?). I made it 10 steps out of the door before I burst into tears, calling That Husband on the phone and sobbing heavily. He urged me to go back in and stand up for myself, but “standing up for myself” was what had me sobbing in the first place. I guess the medical community would prefer doormats who don’t speak their mind? The medical community in Irving, TX anyway.
I cashed a check on the way home, reading all kinds of outraged tweets in response to my own tweets describing the encounter (thanks to everyone who responded sympathetically, it helped calm me down a lot). By the time I got home T1 was demanding another bottle and I had the chance to cool down. TH called me to let me know he had talked to the OB, and I had to remind myself that he wasn’t siding with the ignorant jerk who walked out on me when he said that the OBGYN had made it clear that “I didn’t want to continue with the questions that he was required by law to ask”.
Oh sure, because saying that you don’t want to be told you are a stupid idiot for choosing to birth at home and not use an OBGYN for your pregnancy is EXACTLY the same as refusing to cooperate with state mandated questions. Did his little form have on it somewhere: Be sure to treat patients like you know everything and they know nothing.
Maybe he is a perfectly nice man (and friends who recommended his office please don’t feel bad, I’m just happy you had better experiences), but he was still a jerk, and I still think that he walked out because he only wants patients who are going to nod their head and giggle at everything he says, the way I did with the last doctor, actions I’ve come to regret since. Unfortunately this post probably isn’t going to encourage anyone to stand up for themselves when it comes to their own medical care because it would certainly be easier to just lie about where I gave birth and go along with everything he says, right?
Today, I’m going to name names because I think that as someone who pays hard earned money toward insurance premiums and deductibles, I have the right to be cared for with respect. If you are a woman thinking about using Dr. Steven A. Hoffman as your OBGYN, and you plan on educating yourself and taking charge of your own medical care (as I think every woman should), I think you should think twice before using him as your care provider. Based on my experience he is not a good choice for a thinking woman’s OBGYN.
I’m feeling dejected at the thought of going through the “new patient” process once again. I feel frustrated that despite the assurance from people that “there are open minded OBGYNs out there who are able to look past anecdotal evidence and approach medical care from an evidenced based viewpoint”, I can’t seem to find those providers myself. Overall I just want to cry into an extra large tub of the richest chocolate ice cream I can find. Today was overall a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day.















June 15th, 2010 on 4:18 pm
I’m so sorry about your day.
I suggest Haagen Dazs Chocolate. Maybe add some chocolate sauce too?
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:19 pm
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!! WTFudge?!?!?!?! Maybe you can call someone else and tell them beforehand that you did a home birth and don’t wish to discuss it???
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:20 pm
Oh Lord!!! Soon you’ll be here in Chicago, where we have nice doctors!! In the meantime, try Planned Parenthood for a pill prescription – I feel like with all the *interesting* situations they see, your story shouldn’t be such a shock. What is with these sheltered doctors??? Gah.
Hang in there, I know how frustrating it is when all you want to do is be responsible and get the pill. I’ve had similar situations (cancer-related, sadly, and not birth-related) and it really is ridiculous how difficult they make it to obtain birth control. It’s not like I’m going to crush up the pills and sell them on the street!!! You’d think we were trying to get medical weed.
I hope your night gets better hon. Chin up!
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Rachel Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 5:51 pm
I have to agree with Stephanie’s suggestion of Planned Parenthood. I started going there after college when I didn’t have health insurance because they have such affordable costs, and kept going even after I did get insurance just because I really felt respected and treated like a grown woman in charge of her own health (unlike at my previous gyn). Also, as far as the non-judgmental, one visit I had there the doctor came in and said “I hope you aren’t the most unusual patient I have today because the bar has already been set pretty high. With saran wrap.” I highly doubt that a home birth will make them blink an eye! (and I also hope that isn’t inappropriate to post- I apologize if it is as I just want to let you know that seriously, there are some weirdos out there and you are not one of them!)
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Laura Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 8:12 pm
I’m seconding this seconding of Planned Parenthood. Like Rachel, I started going to PP when I couldn’t afford care elsewhere, but I’ve continued going since I got health insurance because I love the people I have interacted with there. They’re very professional, and more importantly they’re non-judgmental. (And perhaps if more people equated professionalism with being non-judgmental it wouldn’t be such a fight to find a good doctor.)
The experience I had at PP that sealed the deal for me was when I was getting my birth control renewed last time, and the nurse gave me the standard “since you’re overweight, your chance of blood clots, etc is increased” spiel. She went over it, addressed the serious concerns, and came out on the end without making me feel like a bad person for being overweight. It was perfect. So even though I’ve never brought up the issue of home birth to them, I think they’re trained to deal with a wide, wide variety of personal choices and won’t be judgmental (or at least won’t let it effect your visit).
Finally, I’m really sorry you’ve had two nasty experiences with OBGYNs. No one deserves to be treated like that. Kudos for standing up for yourself against biased, patronizing attitudes disguised as medical care.
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:22 pm
Say, could you try a GP? They probably have fewer requests for bcp, so maybe they’ll respond in a more normal (read: sane) fashion.
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:23 pm
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. I’m honestly telling you to go ahead and find that extra large tub of the richest chocolate ice cream you can find to cry into to- that’s probably what I would do.
I sincerely hope you can find a non-biased OB/GYN soon and get everything straightened out.
And this is why I have not been to see an OB/GYN in the 17 months since G was born… You said exactly what I would have wanted to say, but would not have been brave enough to. Go you!
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:23 pm
When I saw a midwife at my university for birth control, she performed a pap and can diagnose minor issues like yeast infections. I think a midwife is still a viable option for you! (Though I can’t speak to insurance, since I saw the midwife at my university clinic, I paid a flat fee, I think $60? for my annual exam.)
Planned Parenthood could do absolutely any and all of the services you need. Despite their bad rep, about 98% of the services they perform are basic gynecological maintenance like annual exams.
You could also most likely get an emergency prescription for birth control from your primary care physician, if you explain the extenuating circumstances and that you are scheduling a pap.
I am so sorry you went through this. It’s just wrong. I hope tomorrow is a better day!
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kylydia Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 6:35 pm
Planned Parenthood has a bad rep? They were excellent practitioners when I went.
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Law School Wife Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 7:30 pm
As soon as I clicked “Submit” I knew I should have worded that differently. I see an OBGYN in private practice now, and she volunteers (? not sure the process) her time at Planned Parenthood on a regular basis, so I’m confident the care you receive there is on par with private practice. What I should have said was that Planned Parenthood has a bad reputation in certain circles, ie anti-abortion circles, and the point I was trying to make is that regular reproductive health services such as annual exams comprise far and away the largest part of services rendered. Sorry for the poor wording!
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Katie Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 9:32 pm
Why would you need an emergency prescription from a PCP? My former PCP used to write me birth control prescriptions all the time, and she did not do my Paps.
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Law School Wife Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 11:12 am
My PCP will not write a prescription for birth control without having a pap within a certain amount of time on file, regardless of what office performed the pap. I don’t think doctors care if they themselves did the pap or not, just that you’re getting one. I said emergency since Jenna says she hasn’t had a pap in two years, and some doctors still require an annual pap before writing a prescription(though two years is now the new recommendation).
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cm Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 10:33 am
Exactly. As I posted below, every time I’ve gone to a planned parenthood for birth control and regular exams and stuff, there have been people there yelling about baby killing. I’ve never had an abortion and I don’t plan to, but they seem to think that’s the only reason people go to planned parenthood!
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Sara Reply:
June 17th, 2010 at 2:08 pm
I believe the protestors are protesting planned parenthood and those who advocate and support the organization by giving them their business whether clients are there for an abortion or a regular checkup, not that the protestors assume everyone going there is going for an abortion.
Jenna, it is unfortunate you have had such bad experiences, I guess it has not been easy for you to screen Dr’s opinions on home births ahead of time before they take you through that whole process. I feel you have full right to mention his name on your blog, freedom of speech, just as you would recommend or not recommend a vendor.
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:23 pm
Yikes! I’m so sorry that happened to you. It sounds like a terrible experience, and I can completely understand why you would be so upset! I would urge you to keep looking for a more open-minded and empathetic doctor. Aside from your need for a birth control prescription, it is so important to get regular pap smears (I’m not lecturing you- I know you know this, which is why you went looking for an OBGYN). After you recover from this experience, I do hope you can find a doctor who you are comfortable seeing and who will offer you the quality services you need and deserve.
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:24 pm
I’m so sorry you had such a negative experience again. A professional would have stayed in the room, explained that there were questions he needed to ask and tried to proceed with the appointment. You told him you didn’t want to be lectured, if that wasn’t his plan he should have said as much.
You should be proud of yourself for not sitting through another lecture just to get medication. I know it’s the doctor’s job to get the information they need to prescribe medication, but it is also their job to listen to their patient and it’s apparent neither of these two Dr’s want to do that unless they like what they hear.
((HUG))
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:24 pm
I hate that you had this experience. I live in San Francisco, and many doctors are receptive and supportive to the idea of home birth. If your insurance covers a nurse practitioner or other “non doctor” who is able to write scripts and do paps – I highly recommend it. NPs are better for a WIDE variety of reasons, and I doubt you’d get any judgment about your birth choice.
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:24 pm
I’m glad you named him so that you can prevent others from seeing someone who apparently has a God complex. At least it gave you something to blog about, right?
If I was a doctor I’d write you a prescription! Love you!
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:24 pm
I am SO sorry. My mother has been “dismissed” as a patient at multiple doctors in town because she stands up for her self.
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:24 pm
I am so, so, so very sorry you had to go through that, Jenna, and thankful your husband called the OB for you. That was a very, very, very nice thing for him to do.
In my experience, GPs are the way to go. My OB was *always* in a rush, but I have a fantastic GP who always spends time with me and asks me questions.
xoxo
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:25 pm
So sorry Jenna! Does your midwife have any referrals??
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:26 pm
While I think Planned Parenthood is a good option if you absolutely need to get birth control as soon as possible, if you are pro-life (I don’t know) I would avoid supporting an institution that is a vocal advocate of abortion-on-demand.
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Chloe (Island Wed) Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 4:30 pm
Why do you think Planned Parenthood advocates “abortion-on-demand”? Is it because of the morning after pill or because of their referrals for abortions?
(I know this is totally off topic Jenna, so please feel free to delete if you want. I just am curious about this statement and wanted to ask a bit more – definitely not looking to start anything.)
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Jessica Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 4:36 pm
From Wikipedia’s entry on Planned Parenthood:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_Parenthood#cite_ref-15
“The modern organization of Planned Parenthood America is also an advocate for reproductive rights, including the right to abortion.[10] This advocacy includes contributing to sponsorship of abortion rights and women’s rights events[11] and assisting in the testing of new contraceptives.[12] The group opposes restrictions on abortion, including:
>>laws requiring parental consent or notification for girls under the age of 18 (or 17 in some states) to have an abortion
>>laws requiring an ultrasound before abortion (many Planned Parenthood clinics perform, but do not require, ultrasounds)
>>laws requiring a waiting period (ranging from a couple of hours to a day or more)”
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Sophia Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 5:30 pm
Just to put some numbers on it, only 3% of Planned Parenthood’s services are abortion related. The other 97% of services Planned Parenthood offers are for general health and well being of women and their partners.
Personally, I think that someone who is pro-life would appreciate supporting an institution that makes it possible for low income women to access cheap and quality medical care and birth control that prevents unwanted pregnancies and thus abortions.
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Jessica Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 5:33 pm
That’s a good point Sophia. But I don’t think it contradicts my point that Planned Parenthood is an institution that supports and advocates abortion-on-demand. I’m just saying it’s something to consider, as are the points you bring up.
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Jennifer Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 5:44 pm
Jessica, I would encourage you to actually do research beyond wikipedia if you would like to make such statements. Sorry for the off topic continuation Jenna
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Jessica Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 5:48 pm
Jennifer, thank you for the general advice, but if you’re actually challenging the veracity of what I’ve cited here, I would encourage YOU to actually do any research at all, since you seem to have done none at all. Do you contest that Planned Parenthood advocates abortion-on-demand, or are you just trying to embarrass me?
Jenna – I’m sorry – I honestly wasn’t trying to go off topic, I was just pointing a fact out that I thought you might be interested in based on some of your other political/relibious positions.
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Chloe (Naturally Frugal) Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 8:02 pm
I think that I’m confused by your term “abortion-on-demand”. What exactly do you think “abortion-on-demand” is? My interpretation of that is that a woman walks in, says “I want an abortion” and is given one right then and there. Clearly Planned Parenthood doesn’t advocate or provide that type of service.
I think it’s the wording that is a bit jarring, and the fact that wikipedia is not a very good source for reliable facts, especially since nowhere in that link did it cite that Planned Parenthood advocates FOR abortions (as in that is the only probably end to a pregnancy for the women visiting their clinic), just for womens rights and the right to choose as well as more lenient laws.
Thank you for replying, I know this can become a heated topic, but was interested because I had never heard of “abortion-on-demand” before and am genuinely curious about those who use the phrase & what it means to them.
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Jennifer Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 8:08 pm
Jessica, I was not challenging the veracity of your statement because your original statements were opinion. Further, I do not contest that Planned Parenthood provides and offers abortion services and I am definitely not trying to embarrass you, in fact let me apologize because my comment did in fact read rather “snarky” and that was not my intent. Hopefully this will better explain my intentions:
I do believe that the wikipedia article that you reference has a clear political slant and opinion about Planned Parenthood (actually that’s the beauty of a wiki but open wiki and the accuracy of wiki information is REALLY off topic) and the descriptions of “abortion-on demand” reflect that. It is also my opinion that even the term “abortion-on-demand” has a political slant and is in fact often used by anti-abortion politicians (democrat and republican alike). Your response to Chloe’s question about why you considered PP to be advocates of abortion-on-demand was to post information from the wiki article: I don’t think that answered her question but instead presented at the very least incomplete information about Planned Parenthood. This seemed to be a disservice to not only PP but also to YOUR original opinion about why someone may choose to forgo services at PP because of a pro-life position or other religious belief.
I guess at the end of the day what I was trying to say, and what I hope I am saying in a nicer way now is: don’t tell me what you think Planned Parenthood’s mission is, explain why you a real person (without a political spin machine) may choose to forgo services at Planned Parenthood or alternatively choose not to support them financially or with patronage because of personal beliefs. This is one of those areas where there will always be disagreements between individuals but I would always rather hear what real people have to say as opposed to anonymous wiki writers.
PS excellent use of the word veracity!
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Jessica Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 8:35 pm
Thanks for responding Jennifer — I now understand what you were saying. The simple answer to your question — regarding why I wouldn’t go to Planned Parenthood — is that I try to avoid giving business or money to organizations that advocate positions I find morally objectionable. (I won’t go into details regarding why I’m pro-life and why I oppose Planned Parenthood’s positions — that’s a whole other topic I think!
) But for me, I wouldn’t patronize a business that performs elective abortions. If anyone else is interested in finding pro-life ob-gyn services, a directory of pro-life ob-gyns can be found here: http://www.aaplog.org/
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Jessica Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 8:49 pm
The LDS church opposes elective abortion.
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=63c139b439c98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
Planned Parenthood advocates for wide access to elective abortion.
That is why I thought Jenna might be interested in finding another source for birth control.
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Sophia Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 5:59 pm
You’re right Jessica, it doesn’t contradict that notion, they do support abortion on demand. It just seems as though they are often unfairly painted as an abortion factory, as though that is their sole purpose. That was why I brought up the specific numbers, because to me, if 97% of their services are involved in cheap, effective, quality health care for women, and if the vast majority of the 97% involves dispensing effective birth control, then I would say that they are, in the end, preventing more unwanted pregnancies and therefore abortions than they are performing. I guess it just frustrates me that they provide a necessary service in this climate of very expensive or non-existent health insurance, but they seem to be routinely painted as the “bad guy”, if that makes sense. I can appreciate that those who are pro-life would be uncomfortable supporting even that 3% of their activities, but to me it’s not quite as black and white as that- not saying you see it as black and white, but I’ve talked to the protesters that stand outside the clinic on many on occasion, and unfortunately the pamphlets they hand out, and the information they are disseminating, is often completely false.
Equality and access in women’s health is near and dear to my heart, so I always have to gently point out my views on Planned Parenthood because of it
Thank you for not thinking I was attacking you, just presenting an alternate view.
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Betts Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 8:34 pm
“Just to put some numbers on it, only 3% of Planned Parenthood’s services are abortion related. The other 97% of services Planned Parenthood offers are for general health and well being of women and their partners. Personally, I think that someone who is pro-life would appreciate supporting an institution that makes it possible for low income women to access cheap and quality medical care and birth control that prevents unwanted pregnancies and thus abortions.” -Sophia
I guess because I am pro-life, I simply can’t overlook that 3%. Abortion is a black/white issue for me, with no gray areas. But those are my views on abortion and PP, and I would be interested to know where Jenna stands on this issue. Maybe another time, another post? I’ll be on the look-out.
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Sophia Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 9:54 pm
I can appreciate that you have the opportunity to “vote with your dollar” and not patronize PP, and I think that is a smart and honorable way of living your values.
My concern is the fact that the rampant misinformation about PP slanders the good work they do. In addition, for many women PP is the only low cost provider in their reach, and they do not have the luxury of “voting with their dollar” even if they do disagree with abortion services. I believe in voting with your dollar, but I also believe in admitting that some people don’t have that luxury, so I wish their options weren’t shamed. I know it seems like a weird comparison, but it reminds me of locavore/farmer’s market/Whole Foods shoppers turning up their noses at people who shop at Wal-Mart- “don’t they know how AWFUL Wal-Mart is?? How can they support that!”. I’m not saying you’re shaming PP users, I’m just saying that I grow tired, as a women’s health advocate, and as a student of poverty and sociology, of seeing PP unilaterally maligned as an abortion chop shop, when the reality is that almost 100% of their services are aimed at good old fashioned sexual health, specifically women’s health, and that for many women it is PP services that allow them to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place.
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Laura Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 1:04 am
I just want to thank Sophia and Jennifer for your words. You had great tact. So much better than I could have.
Jessica – It is fine to give the opinion that PP doesn’t fit your and also maybe TW beliefs. I was actually surprised that she mentioned it because I had assumed she wouldn’t want to use them so it is not that your point was not valid. But using terms such as “abortion-on-demand” are loaded made-up phrases that do not add to a constructive conversation. Though I may not agree with you, I agree with Jennifer that your point would be better served and less combative if you were using your own words and beliefs. What I mean is using the phrase “abortion-on-demand” and then replying with a Wiki post.
I also wanted to add that using such a term can be really offensive. You may be on the other side of the issue but it does not correct to imply that women (or PP) take abortion lightly.
Pro Life or Pro Choice, let’s not be so quick as to assume than any of us women are two-dimensional. We know better than that. We all know that life is complicated and almost nothing is really ever black or white. It is not as simple as saying that PP “pro-abortion”. We may not agree but we should all be aware of the fact that it is a serious issue for both sides, not just pro-life.
This is a basic respect that I wish I saw more of when people talk about this and other polarizing issues. The debate can be about the issue while not also demonizing the people on the other side. The term “abortion on demand” insults people who are pro choice by implying that they are” pro abortion” and take abortion lightly. The argument for the people who are pro-choice is over right to choice when it comes to abortion. No one I have ever known is “pro abortion”.
I don’t mean AT ALL to take anything away from Jenna’s post……but I had to say that on this thread.
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Jessica Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 9:57 am
I never used the words pro-abortion. I don’t think the term abortion-on-demand is combative or insulting, I think it’s descriptive. I’m not saying that any particular person takes abortion lightly, I’m simply pointing out that Planned Parenthood supports public policies that allow women to receive abortions for any reason any time — as in “a woman demands an abortion and it is given.” But thanks for your comment — I agree with much of what you’ve said regarding being respectful of the other side. I don’t think anything I’ve done or said has been disrespectful. Again I was simply posting to mention one consideration in determining where to “vote with your dollar.” Thanks all.
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:27 pm
P.S. When you get to Chicago, I have THE BEST GP in the world. Seriously, she rocks. They can prescribe birth control for you as well!!
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:27 pm
I am so sorry you continue to have issues with finding an open-minded, patient-centered provider. It can be tough. I wholeheartedly agree with you that everyone needs to take a more active role in their medical care, and never, EVER hesitate to ask questions or disagree with a doctor. They have been highly trained, yes, but their function is essentially that of a mechanic. They are to fix our bodies, and who knows our bodies better than we do? Certainly not a doctor who is being met for the first time.
I’ve had doctors accuse me of faking a problem because they couldn’t find anything wrong quickly. I know when something isn’t right with my body, and I do not take kindly to being called a liar.
I wish you luck in your continued search for the right office for you. Sending hugs your way as well, I know how much it sucks.
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:28 pm
I am so sorry you had such a bad experience (again). I just googled to try to help, and I found this website: http://knowbirth.com/professionals.aspx
There is a section for OBs Supportive of Natural Birth. Hope that helps!
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:28 pm
Re:FeistyNC, I don’t think refusing to discuss your home birth is the way to go. Obviously, a doctor is going to need to know how your birth experience was in order to properly treat you.
I think the doctor treated you appallingly, and I’m sorry. But I think you probably also went into the appointment anticipating that you’d be judged, and that didn’t help anyone.
Maybe next time tell the doctor the same thing, that you were treated horribly by two practicioners because of your experience, and you’re really nervous. Not, “I don’t wish to discuss it”, but “be aware that I’ve been through the ringer, here.”
Maybe if you told them you were a home birther when you made the appointment, you’d have different results?
I don’t know, dear. I just hate to think that the entire medical community could be so ugly about something that clearly worked out well for you.
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Jessica Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
I agree, maybe you should make it clear at the time you set up your appointment that you had a home birth and you are nervous about how that will be received. Or maybe even call around and ask if the doctor is supportive of a woman who had a home birth BEFORE setting up an appointment? Maybe it would be worth a little extra work if it spared you another horrible incident.
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J Reply:
June 17th, 2010 at 5:37 am
I agree that the Dr. was inappropriate to walk out on you and the he should have made it clear to you (maybe he did/maybe he didn’t) that he is legally obligated to ask about your birth. That being said, I think you were preparing for a fight before he even got there based on your first bad experience. I think Chealsea said it best above, you need to let them know this is not an easy topic of conversation based on past confrontations but you need to also be willing and able to communicate about T1′s birth and your overall well being. I think any doctor will be more inderstanding if you are willing to have the conversation and do not put up walls or refuse to listen even if it means you may get lectured. They did go to med school for a reason. You don’t have to take the doctor’s advice and I think it is fine to listen and simply state, “thank you for the insight but I had a great experience and would not change anything about my birth.”
Alternatively, would your midwife be able to recommend any doctors that she has worked with in the past or know other patients see?
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:28 pm
I know you don’t tolerate cursing but that totally effing sucks.
Do you have a general practitioner? I’ve had my GP prescribe birth control before.
Maybe you could call the office back and ask what questions he was “legally mandated” to ask, so that you can be prepared for next time. If they actually are legally mandated, it’s best to be prepared!
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:29 pm
If you really want an MD Dr I’d recommend going to one that is the “on-call” Dr for a midwife. {Although I’d also recommend a midwife ’cause that’s what I have and LOVE} I am so sorry you had a negative experience. I know it’s not looking in your favor but not all Dr’s are arrogant snobs.
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:30 pm
That is awful! Seriously, how unprofessional is that doctor? If he’s required by law to ask you those questions, then how hard would it have been for him to simply say so? Interesting that he would say that to your husband over the phone, but in person with you, he thought it was ok to treat you like crap?
I agree, go get some chocolate ice cream and get refreshed. Good luck in finding some medical help.
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Katy Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 4:39 pm
I find it interesting too that he couldn’t just tell her all that rationally the way he did with her husband. Doctors get ‘emotional’ too – they’re just people of course – but they can’t be like that AND be the ones holding all the cards and deciding the fate of your medical care.
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Sophia Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 6:01 pm
It kind of rankled me that he was willing to discuss Jenna’s health via her husband over the phone, yet stomped out and refused to discuss Jenna’s health when she was sitting right there in front of him
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Helena Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 8:49 pm
Actually, Jenna, did you give the OB/GYN permission to discuss your care with your husband? Because I know that if some random husband calls me up to discuss his wife’s care my lips are sealed until I have permission from the wife to talk!
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Samantha Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 9:26 pm
Helena is right, unless you gave express written consent that TH (or anyone else for that matter) has access to your medical records then your doctor violated HIPPA laws. He is not allowed to discuss any aspect of the care you recieved without your consent (even to your spouse).
* btw I’m not trying to say that TH didn’t do a very sweet thing by trying to mediate the situation, just that your doctor MAY have been out of line (yet again :]) in discussing your care without your consent.
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Helena Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 5:58 am
Then again, we don’t know that this particular doctor actually revealed any of Jenna’s medical information. There’s no harm in returning a professional call, but from that point forward there is a fine line there between what you can and can’t reveal.
And, if Jenna put TH’s name anywhere on the “pages and pages” of new patient information, she may have already given him permission to let them discuss her care.
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Maggie Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 5:59 am
eh, he didn’t really discuss Jenna’s care without her consent as no care was provided! Unfortunately a doctor can refuse to treat a patient, and he was probably covering his own arse. Sorry this happened to you Jenna. I hope you can find an OBGYN that is a good fit for you.
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Barb Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 9:51 am
I find it slightly disturbing that we are willing to slander this doctor about violating HIPPA laws when we aren’t exactly sure of what he discussed, what Jenna allowed in writing in her paperwork (most new patient paperwork requires you to list those with whom your dr can discuss your private information, and I would *presume* (again an presumption on my part) Jenna would list her husband). As much as Jenna’s experience was not to her liking, speculating about what laws the dr *may or may not* have been in violation of is an extremely different story.
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:30 pm
Jenna, I am so sorry about your awful experience. I know how hard it is to stand up for yourself in tense situations like that, and I applaud you for doing so. I am so sick of doctors just railroading their patients into whatever they think is best. What was the point of a meet and greet if he wasn’t going to listen to you anyway?
I hope that you are able to find an OB that works for you, and soon!
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:31 pm
Poor girl! Sounds horrible! I would suggest requesting a female OBGYN or a nurse practitioner if you decide to try an office again. I think a lady could be less ego-ish. And seriously just lie about the home birth. Say you waited too long and didn’t make it to the hospital, which would be true-sorta. It’s not worth the battle. Get your pap, and your pill prescription and get the heck otta there. It’s strange that a doc would care one bit about where you gave birth. It is done and over with.
Either way, ice cream is good for what ails you. And kisses on fuzzy baby heads too
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Helena Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 8:51 pm
Oh dear, never lie to your doctor. Please. For your own health and well being. Never, never, never lie. We usually find out anyway, and it only delays time to treatment and causes a rift in the doctor-patient therapeutic relationship.
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Sandra Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 8:09 am
Not to mention that people are always going on about why doctors don’t trust their answers (especially about not being sexually active etc) and instead confirm medically. Why should they when other people clearly advocate lying in any way?
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e2r2z Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 10:34 am
Clearly, I was advocating always lying to your doctor. Yes, that is what I meant. In life we make decisions and often there are some battles not worth fighting. Jenna has received post-natal care and having a home birth in no way determines which type of birth control a doctor should prescribe. Since that information (where she gave birth) has absolutely no bearing on getting a pap smear, being checked for a yeast infection and getting birth control – it is ok to omit or to lie about the information. It would serve you well to take comments on blogs that are related to a particular post within the context of the information provided in the post. Now, if Jenna was discussing the fact that she was on several prescription medications and didn’t want to share that information with her doctor or be lectured about how many pills she was popping, I would never advocate lying…context…people…context.
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:31 pm
Ohhh, so sad to read this post – but it made me feel compelled to leave you a note. It’s been amazing for me to read about your experience with a home birth and talk about the scenario with my own husband (for future kiddos). Thank you for so candidly sharing the ins & outs of your struggles (and triumphs!) You seem like an amazingly strong and incredible woman! Hang in there.
xoxo
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:32 pm
Oh my dear…I feel so bad for you with what you had to go through today. I clicked on the link to their website and was sickened and flabbergasted to see “Blending modern, sophisticated treatment with COMPASSIONATE CARE.” UM, excuse me?!?!? I could certainly insert an adjective far more fitting than the one they used. lol.
Anyway, I just want you to know that I applaud your courage…and despite your insanely horrible experience, I hope this doesn’t discourage you from standing up for yourself in the future. Whether or not they accept it or treat you with respect, I hope that you can feel some sort of comfort inside knowing that you were true to YOURSELF!
I am proud of you! You are an inspiration to me.
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:32 pm
Sounds like a total jerk to me, and how rude to just walk out without any explanation as to why he doesn’t want to see you. Very childish.
I hope you can find a doctor who will treat you with the respect every patient deserves – maybe try a woman this time?
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:33 pm
Jenna! Wow– I can’t respond very well without swearing, so I have nothing more to say than four letter words and that is absolutely awful. Good for you for sticking by your guns, and the h*ll with Texas and it’s doctors!
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:33 pm
I am so sorry this happened to you again!
You will find a doctor that doesn’t freak out.
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:35 pm
So here’s what I think…take it for what you will.
You should count your blessings that he dismissed you then, instead of wasting your time going through all of that, perhaps another visit or two, and still have you feeling uncomfortable with him and the way he treats you.
It seems he isn’t comfortable with patients that birth at home, and I’m in no way defending him, but I think you are better off without him. At least it was only a piece of your day he ruined instead of weeks and weeks. As I read this, I thought, “what a jerk”, and then I realized, sometimes I’m that “jerk”. I interview my prospective violin students/parents before I agree to accept them in my studio. There are things I demand, and if my students expectations don’t meet my own, then I tell them I’m not currentl accepting students.
Don’t get me wrong, I would be flaming pissed if I were you, but, sometimes it helps to see another side. I’m envious of your ability to stand up for yourself – it’s not something I do easily. All I’m saying is, at least you only wasted that much time, instead of a WHOLE LOT MORE.
xoxoxo
p.s. I hesitated saying this, because I read your post about struggling with mean commenters. I’m not being mean – I swear!! I LOVE to read your blog – so keep your chin up – and keep blogging! xoxoxoxoxo
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Jenna Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 4:43 pm
I didn’t think your comment was mean or critical at all, and I think it would apply if I was planning a long term relationship with this guy, but I only needed to see him once. Ever. We needed to spend maybe 15 minutes out of our entire lives together but he wasn’t interested.
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Katie Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 4:47 pm
Good point.
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Katherine (a.k.a. Sparkles) Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
But the doc doesn’t know that. (In all fairness).
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caitlin Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 5:31 pm
Yes the doctor did know that – she said that all she wanted was birth control.
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Katherine (a.k.a. Sparkles) Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 5:40 pm
He didn’t know that she would never see him again after that visit is what I was referring to.
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caitlin Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 5:42 pm
ah i see. nevermind
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crazydaisy Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 10:56 am
It would be irresponsible of the doctor to just had over birth control without so much as a medical history, questions and even an exam (IMO). Jenna’s better off finding an OB who supports home birth or using PP then one off visits to docs for BC- for both their sakes.
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Jennifer Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 7:47 pm
But doctors aren’t simply drug dispensing machines. It would be irresponsible to prescribe “just birth control” w/o having done a complete H&P. Think of how often OB/GYNs get sued. BCP is a drug (many different ones) with real risks, and if his first encounter with a patient is one where she refuses to answer questions or even *discuss* her choices, and hasn’t even had a pap in 2 years, I don’t really blame him for stepping away. Both parties probably could have handled it better, but I don’t think you need to trash the man.
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:35 pm
I love the doctor’s little twist there at the end to explain himself – - that’s EXACTLY what our jerk pediatrician did to me. Made me look like the crazy lady and he the rational, normal person. I’m so glad you didn’t pay your copay or give them anything else.
I’m so glad you posted his name too. I didn’t have the nerve to publicly tell our story because 1)I wasn’t sure anyone would really believe me or have any sympathy for me unless they REALLY knew us 2)so many of our friends absolutely love this pediatrician so they would probably have taken it with a grain of salt anyway and not realize how that jerk doctor pretty much caused one of the worst things that has happened to us.
I’m so sorry. I know how you are feeling right now and I’m so proud that you stood up for yourself. I know it would easier to be a spineless, brainless patient and just say “Yes, doctor, whatever you say” but that’s not what you should do. If more people stood up to doctor’s and demanded that they be treated like thinking, breathing EQUALS, more doctors would get the picture that they can’t just hold all the cards all the time and treat patients like mindless puppies.
This is a major hot-button topic for me if you cannot tell!
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:36 pm
im sorry that he would treat you like that.- truly horrible and not a good way to greet new patients, like that. please know you did the right thing by standing up for yourself. trust me, i have gone to doctor’s and nicely stated my opinion after doing educated research and have also gotten blown off by them. its a horrible feeling and at first it made me feel stupid and really down but i kept looking for a doctor and found one that would listen to my opinion and hear me out.- dont worry you will find one too- dont give up and dont ever apolgize or feel bad about stating your opinions to doctors. sorry for your crappy day- i think today is a great day for icecream
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:36 pm
I don’t think you should feel discouraged at all for standing up for yourself. I don’t know you but I feel proud that you did that.. because in a way you are standing up for other women who chose a home birth as well.
Even though he refused treatment, you should be happy that he didn’t try to berate you after you had said what you said. In my mind, seeing someone walk away after standing up for yourself (placing boundaries) rather than give you that lecture is a small victory.
And you know what, I am sure he’ll be thinking about this situation himself for a while.
I wish you luck with your birth control endeavors ! Be prepared, though, if you do go to PP that there is a LONG wait. I Went with a friend who I waited with for about two hours.. just in the waiting room.
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:36 pm
What a weird guy. It doesn’t take a lot for him to get upset. You think he would say something like “because you won’t answer these questions, I won’t see you”…instead of getting up and leaving. I am just speechless as to his immaturity.
I go to a planned parenthood type of situation…and I read the pro life comment above, the great thing about Planned Parenthood is they are not there to judge you. You just get your birth control and you leave.
I agree with some of the other comments you can just get your regular doctor to call it in, you don’t need to even go in.
Sorry people are such a-holes.
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:36 pm
I’m so sorry that you were treated like that. No one deserves that. My lawyer instincts were blazing while reading your post, trying (unsuccessfully, but hey, I’m young and inexperienced) to find a cause of action. Not that lawsuits are the magic solution, but sometimes they really can be a powerful way of changing things for the better for everyone.
You’ve probably already thought of this, but would there be anyway for you to get OB recommendations from your midwife, or past patients of hers or some other group of home birth moms in the area? Or maybe mention something when you make the next appointment.
If not, I can second recommendations for planned parenthood. I can’t speak for the ones in your corner of TX, but every experience I’ve had with them was very friendly and professional, and I’ve only heard good things from others. Plus they are often able to work with insurance. The waiting room can feel a little more awkward than a normal Dr.’s office, but that’s nothing compared to being treated well.
You really shouldn’t have to take any of these steps, you should just be treated decently to begin with. But, I still hope things work out.
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Emmie Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 8:09 pm
Haha, me too I was looking for a COA too..alas no damages!! I think it’s our natural response!
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The Doc Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 10:42 pm
For one example of how law suits have certainly changed things (although, maybe not for the better) please read the paper here: http://digitalcommons.uconn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1157&context=uchcgs_masters
I’m curious to know your thoughts on this?
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:41 pm
Wow.
Um. Wow.
I am just CURIOUS… I am NOT saying you should have stayed there to find out. But what other ‘questions’ are they ‘mandated by law’ to ask that this OB/Gyn claims they clearly werent able to get out of you.
Honestly, I would have responded the same way as you. You re-directed him to the point of the visit (obtaining a prescription) and why you had left the previous provider. But I wonder in a way if you have a heightened sense of defensiveness?
Look I know I wasn’t there. I know that non-verbal communication can be powerful and I am sure he probably eminated quite a bit of it that may be perceived negatively. But He probably felt that (from his perspective) that you obviously were requesting something from him and weren’t open to engaged in a dialogue that he perhaps perceives he needed to engaged in with you in order to feel like he can A) provide for a NEW patient B) get a sense of where to start with someone he may never have worked with who has had a home birth C) doesn’t want to be told ‘just give me birth control and disregard the home birth part’ which is obviously- part of him needing to redirect his health care questionnaire which is not developed for the home-birther.
I’ll admit there are a lot of times in my own professional practice where I am taken aback by things I didn’t anticipate…. I had a new patient come to the office from a different state with their three year old daughter. I noticed the immunization record was blank so I said let’s go over it- and the mom responded she hadn’t given ANYTHING to her kid. So I too must have looked astonished- but I didn’t go from a place of “And why not?” I had to catch my bearings and want to say in a constructive approach- ‘so are you open to any? do you want/need any information from me?’ I had to look in the chart to make sure I had a waiver from the mother that she didn’t want to follow the AAP guidelines just so the mother & I are both covered- because let’s face it. We live in a litigious society.
Another time I cared for a patient who practiced Wicca. Now I know nothing about it, I am not one to judge- but how, where do I start to ask “how can I provide you culturally appropriate care?”
So before you get defensive from point A to point B… I might suggest to you kindly. Try to *consider* how a health care provider might start approaching a home birther whom they have NEVER met in a conversation so it is a win-win situation? Perhaps start by being the person who is more “Look, I had a homebirth. I don’t want to be lectured about this choice” [which you already said] But follow it up with ‘is it possible we can have a working relationship without you lecturing me on my birth choice? Because I don’t want you to feel that I am not open to working within certain medical models. But you came highly recommended to me and I was hopeful that we can come from a place where we can balance what YOU need to do and what I prefer”…
Often times I find families are SO ready to fight the good fight that I have to break down so many barriers of mistrust when I am open to working with them- that I have to establish “look I haven’t worked with this before so there might be a bit of a learning curve to make sure I am meeting your personal needs”. Some families NEED this warm up period in order to establish trust- while others don’t hear what I am saying as a practitioner and focus on the negative due to their heightened distrust/dis-satisfaction/defensiveness…
I’m sorry he said you can leave whenever you want to. I have not idea where he was going with this. But he probably felt like from the start he wasn’t going to be able to get that far. He is definitely at fault for how the provider-patient interaction went astray. But for a Busy man with a busy practice, this was probably the most courteous he could be to you given what HE gathered from your non-verbal communication.
I’m just saying. I am not defending his actions. I have been in more than a GAZILLION negative interactions between families and doctors and I have had to act as the mediator. I have to weigh both sides of the coin. And honestly, proudly I can say these things work out. How often to we get a bad impression of one person and over time realize it was just a crummy day where people weren’t on the same page what-so-ever? I’ve seen it in the hospital setting countless times.
Gather your thoughts and wits. You did what you felt was best in that moment. And he probably felt the same way to based on what he gauged he could do.
Someone will hang me for my view- I could write endlessly more specific details to further clarify my thoughts… but just take this as just a fraction of what I can contribute without making more of an essay out of this.
Feel better! I am crossing my fingers you have more positive experiences in the future!
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Katherine (a.k.a. Sparkles) Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 5:18 pm
I saw a midwife post this once. I thought it began an interesting dialogue on her post about it.
http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/wellbeing/homebirth-mothers-being-refused-prescriptions-20100608-xtr7.html
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Jenn Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 9:33 pm
Reading this reminded me of a friend of mine who had to walk out of a situation with a patient at an OB/GYN’s office while going to school to become a nurse. The patient was young (a teenager) and complaining that she was pregnant with her third child. My friend left the room to avoid saying or doing anything more negative because he and his wife were suffering through the miscarriage of their first (long awaited) child.
It makes me think (though your OB/GYN’s actions were inappropriate) perhaps you might not know the whole story. You are very passionate about your choice to have a home birth and feel that it was best for you, but he has gone to school for years and has been taught things that make him nervous for those who choose to have their babies at home. (Not to say that one way or the other is right. I have very dear friends on both sides of this aisle.) For some that nervousness/concern might be hard to handle at times. For all we know he may know someone who had a bad home birth experience and was projecting that to you.
Also, he may have been able to better speak with your husband for no other reason than that he was able to calm himself down from his experience with you. If he comes so highly recommended, he might even have realized that he did the wrong thing and didn’t want to make things worse by ignoring your husband too.
I hope this does not offend. I really am not trying to side with the doctor…just trying to help you to look at it another way. I’ve been trying very hard to not get upset with people for perceived (or real) slights because (in reality) I don’t know everything they have been through in life. (I’ve been trying even harder lately because of a few situations in my own life where people…not knowing all that I’ve been through…have made very rude comments about me. It hurts on both ends.)
I hope you are able to find a way to get the things that you need without being treating poorly because of differing opinions.
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Katie Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 9:47 pm
I really like the way you articulated this.
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Megan Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 10:17 am
I agree with Jenn. I can totally see why you were upset but I can see the doctors side as well.
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:42 pm
ahhhhhhhhhhhhh this is so aweful. seriously. I’ve had far too many bad experiences with obgyn’s to even think of them as educated people let alone call them doctors. This makes me so mad. I can’t believe he walked out of the room. Evil doctors. Sending lots of hugs your way because I know you need them.
Jen Allyson
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:46 pm
I’m so sorry about that crazy jerk, Jenna! Oh, I’d have lost it. But then I would have done the exact same thing- gone home and eaten chocolate and cuddled my baby!
Good luck with your next doctor. Lots of good advice on here.
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:48 pm
How rude! I’m so sorry you had to go through two bad experiences. Ask your CNM if she’s got any suggestions for doctors or maybe a midwife who can prescribe bc and do annual exams.
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:48 pm
I’ve never commented before but being 8 months pregnant made me feel furious on your behalf. I’m sorry you had to go through that. When I lived in Dallas, I saw Jack Johnson (not the singer) for my birth control. He’s a family practitioner and very cool. Good luck!
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:49 pm
I just don’t get it! (The doctors I don’t get…not you) How is you standing up for yourself hindering his asking of required questions? What difference does it make where you had your baby?
I too am really sorry you had such a horrible experience. It’s very discouraging.
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:51 pm
While I do agree that this was ridiculous, I have to agree with Katherine Sparkles… since before this visit you had been treated badly, you had your back up before you even set foot in this doctor’s office. And I bet he felt that. Also, by telling him that you were there basically for BC pills, you were implying that you didn’t really need HIM or his experience. You just wanted/needed something from him. And that angered him. And please don’t take this the wrong way— I do believe he acted wrongly. What I’m trying to say is that sometimes you have to stand up for yourself… but you have to be smooth about it.
Also, I am a little surprised at your mention of using PP’s services. And I’m surprised that your church (the LDS church) have never had anything to say about PP’s practices…
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Jenna Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 4:59 pm
But what is wrong with just going to the doctor for birth control pills? I just don’t see why we can’t say “This is what I want from you. Use your training and determine if I should have that thing, and then give it to me.” Isn’t that what we are paying for? I don’t think lectures are what my insurance is covering.
If it makes doctors feel used and that we don’t value them for whatever problem then that’s their problem I think.
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liv Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 5:18 pm
I think the problem with that is that people sue (not saying you, just generally). Doctors (and lawyers and other professionals) are trained (and mandated by insurance and professional ethics) to ask questions. Even PP will ask you questions. If someone is willing to give you BC without asking any questions they are a bad doctor.
I think he was probably a bit of a jerk, but you went in there with your defenses up, saying “I had a home birth, don’t lecture me, give me my pills and I can leave”. No good doctor will see a new patient and give them drugs without getting a patient history, etc. He handled it the wrong way, but if he did exactly what you wanted, he wouldn’t be doing his job.
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Sophia Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 5:51 pm
I have a lovely relationship with my doctor, and that’s pretty much how every appointment goes- I simply state exactly what I’m there for and what I need, and she goes from there asking questions to see what is appropriate for me. I’ve even specifically said things like “nope, everything else is cool, no problems, just need my prescription for xyz, thanks!”. To me, there is nothing in an explanation of a bad experience with a previous doctor regarding her homebirth that says “I refuse to answer ANY questions buddy, gimme them thar pills, ggggggrrrrrrrrrr!”
Personally, I just don’t understand why the doctor didn’t say “I’m sorry you had a bad experience, I just need to know about the care you received while pregnant so I can get a bead on your health history”. Simple as that. I think it is totally unprofessional that the doctor walked out despite Jenna asking him twice to please come back. Plus, as I said below, it seems like Jenna went in to this appointment the *opposite* of defensive- she had nothing but glowing reviews, and she was expecting a pleasant visit.
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Betts Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 5:45 pm
I am not a doctor, but I would imagine that if I were one, I would want to know a little bit more about my patient before writing out a prescription. I tend to believe that most of us here in America have a very, very friendly relationship with prescription medicine: it’s very available and we often forget that medication has to be monitored, doses have to be adjusted, etc. Basically, I am agreeing with Liv… However, he acted like a jerk, and he shouldn’t have– he should have explained himself after you explained yourself.
Also, he may have had his own welfare in mind: just think of the lawsuits doctors have to deal with.
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Sophia Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 5:52 pm
I agree about the lawsuits on the brain- I’m sure it’s a treacherous path for doctors to walk!
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:52 pm
Jenna, do you live near a teaching hospital (basically, any hospital affiliated with a medical school)? I know a lot of times people avoid them because you might have a resident or medical student watching the exam to learn, but I think in your situation, you may discover that they will look at your experience as a great teaching tool for medical students/residents. Rather than berate you for your choices, teaching hospitals often tend to be a bit more “open” and like the diversity in patients. Plus, perhaps discussing your wonderful homebirth experience will help shape the opinions of new OB-GYNs in training and help them take a more favorable stance on it!
I cannot speak for every teaching hospital, but every OB/GYN I have seen is in a university hospital and I have had nothing but wonderful experiences, so I absolutely do not believe there is any lower standard of care in a hospital facility as opposed to private practice.
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Jenna Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 4:59 pm
Great suggestion Julie! I really like this.
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kates Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 10:37 pm
By the way, you do live near two teaching hospitals, UT – Southwestern and Baylor Medical Center. Both are fantastic medical schools with strong OBGYN programs.
What about the on cal OB who works with your midwife nurse? The doctor you would have seen had you required a hospital transfer? I’m just thinking they might be accustomed to women with your birthing history, and at the very least be open to your preferences.
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:56 pm
Perhaps the doctor left because he was offended by the way you treated him. Doctors are not pill dispensers. I agree that the first doctor who lectured you was over the line, but I feel that you were in the wrong to completely close off the conversation with the second doctor. The doctor’s job is to practice medicine, which involves understanding a patient’s medical history. If I were a doctor and a patient declared that she didn’t want to discuss her pregnancy or L&D because all she wanted from me was a pill script, I would be pretty upset as well.
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Jenna Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 5:01 pm
I said this above but why AREN’T they pill dispensers? Why isn’t part of their description to determine if someone needs the medication they are asking for? Isn’t that partly what we are paying them for?
And I never said I wouldn’t discuss it, I said I didn’t want a lecture. Big difference. If he was interested in a discussion he would have done the rational and mature thing and said “I’m not here to lecture you, I just want to learn more about your past so I can help determine your future.” That is what doctors should be doing.
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liv Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 5:21 pm
I’m sorry, I’m trying to understand. You think a doctor should give a patient a drug that can have serious side effects, just because the patient wants it?
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Katherine (a.k.a. Sparkles) Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 5:28 pm
Between what you wrote in response to Disgruntled Julie and Sherry’s replies I have to politely disagree with you.
Health care providers are NOT pill dispensers- nor do they feel used if someone comes in to say “just give me my meds”. It’s a red flag to them. It’s like saying to a teacher “just give me the grade but let’s skip the work part”. (I dunno it’s a weak analogy bear with me.) And personally- if I went to a provider who I said ‘look I’m just here for this, I need this and this…’ and they just said SURE! Here is a script! I would be alarmed.
You’re right. The doc should have said ***“I’m not here to lecture you, I just want to learn more about your past so I can help determine your future.” **** But he didn’t.
But he has to draw the line somewhere when someone says just give me meds. He is there to understand what is going on in your medical history. He needs to reframe his approach to your care.
It’s a moot point now that it isn’t going to work out. Other people have made wonderful recommendations as to where to go from here. I would also agree with the person who said when you make your future appointments, ask if the provider is familiar with caring for women who have had home birth’s prior to making an appointment. Teaching hospitals, planned parenthood, Nurse Practitioners, heck even a FEMALE provider might be more the best bet.
But I would strongly sway away from saying “Providers shouldn’t /aren’t paid to lecture… providers should dispense meds….” it diminishes the anticipatory guidance conversations/ motivational interviewing/ provider-client therapeutic relationship that providers TRY (and sometimes fail), but ATTEMPT to establish with first time NEW patients. Sometimes first impressions are irreparably damaging. But providers will always be turned off if they don’t have a working relationship/ are told just give me the meds. Because it sets them up with FUTURE potential interactions that are negative for both parties involved.
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Stephanie S. Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 6:16 pm
I totally agree with your “red flag” point. Although you (and we!) know you didn’t have any “ulterior motives”, doctors have to be suspicious of patients like that.
Also, could you have turned it in to a bit of a teaching moment? Like it or not, home births are not the norm. And, in any field, taking the path less traveled can be a challege. When he said “you didn’t see an ob at all during your pregnancy?” you could have said, “nope, I had a home birth, brought my beautiful child into the world, and now I’m here for birth control”… and transitioned just like that.
Going beyond that question/comment, this doc probably wasn’t the right fit for you. But, taking an extra moment or two to explain your experience/stance could go a long way to making your life easier. And, you may even find that more medical professionals (and others) are more supportive than you think.
Best of luck to you in your search.
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Jenna Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 6:52 pm
This is most definitely how I wish I had responded. If only I had that time traveling machine!
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Heather Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 7:33 pm
Jenna, i love you. and your reply to this. I love that you are a strong, brilliant woman who is willing to look at things from all angles, even after you have been mistreated. I love how you are HUMAN and don’t hide from your readers. I love that you are willing to say, “maybe i could have done things differently” and dont just put up a wall and think you are the best of the best. I love that you are constantly striving towards becoming the best you can be.
This is why i keep coming back and reading your posts. YEAR AFTER YEAR.
thank you for being who you are.
and from meeting you “in real life” and working with you through Jenna Cole I can’t help point out that you are who you are in person just as much as you are through your writing on the blog. And that desires much kudos.
and gratitude.
THANK YOU, SWEET GIRL.
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Katie Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 10:18 pm
I am incredibly impressed with your response here, Jenna. I think it’s really easy to get (justifiably) upset with other people when we feel wronged, but it’s not always easy to hear advice on how we might have altered our own behavior to achieve a different outcome. The fact that you can say that while you are glad you expressed your opinion, you can see how articulating it in a different manner might have been a positive thing shows that a level of maturity that not a lot of people possess. That is awesome.
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Katherine (a.k.a. Sparkles) Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 7:31 pm
Yeah come to think of it- some other commenter said it too. Perhaps the physician just thought she didn’t have any provider follow up at all versus TW actually had an experienced person follow her during her pregnancy. Maybe he mis-interepreted not having an OB as not having a provider at all? And that TW just had a baby at home unassisted??? (Playing devils advocate here… just pondering)
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Barb Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 10:46 am
Jenna I really feel horrible that you felt badly about this dr’s visit, and you have the right to an undertanding dr, but I have to feel that there are two sides to every story, and I agree completely with Katherine, Stephanie, etc. As much as you believed you stated your case fairly, I am guessing you probably walked in there with your guard up and the doctor inpterpretted it as so based on your body language and words. Doctors most definitely are NOT pill dispensers, as that would have most of them out of business from the amount of lawsuits filed in regards to any side effects, no warnings, etc. They have spent 12 years of their life studying about how various symptoms, conditions, etc, interact with one another and their ethical duty is to give you the best care and medicine based on your personal history of health and genetics.
I agree that both of you could have turned things around to form a more positive experience, but I politely disagree with your opinion that doctors want only a doormat who giggles as a patient. There are very polite ways to state your opinion, and while you were very passionate (which is fantastic!) & defensive about your choice to home birth, it may have come across as such to someone on the outside, as sometimes it has to your readers. I remember in one post you said something about (LOOSELY paraphrased!!) “why would anyone want to be in an evironment so cold and unwelcoming as a hospital?” and my immediate thought was that I would not feel comfortable in ANY other place but a hospital when I give birth. Of course I didn’t comment b/c having been a reader for a while I was sure you didn’t mean any offense by it, it was just your way of stating how UNcomfortable YOU felt in that very setting. Point is, and I am just reiterating what many have politely stated, that if you run into any dr who will give you meds and not ask questions or get a detailed history of your health and L&D (which in any setting includes many risks), then I would RUN out of that office. The dr’s responsibility is to develop a relationship with you, and I am sure you can possibly find a dr out there willing to maintain this relationship with you (since you should be getting a Pap every year for your health!!)that will respect your choice to birth at home. Just b/c you birth at home doesn’t mean you should disregard seeing a physician on a regular basis for your personal health (Gyn, cholesterol, etc), and you should establish trusting relationships with those. Just remember that to them your choice was very risky and against what their own medical advice would be to themselves, and they want what is best for their patients (if they are good doctors anyway lol) so that generates a reaction, but try letting them know that while you are aware it was a risky choice, you felt it was the best choice for you personally and you are open to developing a medical relationship with a practicioner outside of your choice to birth at home. (if you are of course
)
I hope this comment didn’t sound offensive to you at all, I have been a reader for a long time and although I disagree with many choices I respect that they are YOUR choices and very much enjoy your blog.
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Cristina Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 7:34 pm
There’s a reason why a doctor can prescribe medicine when other’s can’t. You are going to them not just as a pill dispenser but someone with special training who is looking at your situation through another, different set of eyes. You know what you want but that doesn’t mean you always know what’s right for you. That sounds strange because I believe the patient should be an active participant in their care, perhaps even the driver, but it’s a team effort and even the driver needs help sometimes. I may have an ear infection and go to the doctor demanding antibiotics. Most of the time, antibiotics would be appropriate in this situation but not always (and even if antibiotics are indicated, I probably don’t know better than the doctor which one is right for this situation, even if I read up about it on the internet). The doctor could give me what I ask, or he could ask me questions, discuss his opinion, and propose a solution. As a free-thinking individual, it’s up to me whether or not I follow his advice but it’s up to him, as the legally responsible prescriber, to use his knowledge and experience to render his professional opinion.
Birth control is not and should not be something that is just dispensed willy-nilly. While bc is generally safe, there are also risks (namely blood clots). A good doctor should make sure it’s safe for you to receive this medication. They may also know which methods are the most reasonable. You may agree that oral contraceptive pills are the right way to go, but you may disagree about which one. Lots of girls go into doctors’ offices demanding yaz because they want a pill that is less likely to cause weight gain. However, yaz can cause dangerously low levels of potassium in some patients, so the doctor’s determination of whether or not a specific patient is a good candidate to receive yaz could mean the difference between life or death. Do I think it’s likely birth control will put you at high risk for hypokalemia or blood clots? Certainly not and I don’t think women should be scared of taking control of their sexual health. BUT, we do need to acknowledge the risks and respect the value of medical advice in determining the risk-benefit ratio for a particular patient. I disagree with the poster who said you are the customer. Doctor-patient relationships shouldn’t be seen as employee-customer, they should be seen as a partnership based on different views and common goals…in other words, your health.
That being said, I’m sorry you’re having such problems establishing an effective relationship with a medical professional. You know what you want and that’s an admirable trait. Keep the health of you and your son as your priority and good luck in achieving that!
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Laura Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 1:15 am
Jenna,
I was just wondering because maybe I missed it but I don’t think you told us what you said. I am reading through and putting it together for what you say in the comments.
But I just wanted to be the devil’s advocate for a second: Is it possible that you really went off on him and that is why he please?
Please don’t assume that is what I think happened. it is just SUCH a crazy think that happened and I know you were made and maybe already defensive. You didn’t, like go in there with flames shooting out your eyeballs, did you? lol?
Also….suggestion:
Sounds silly but I work at a front desk (not medical) and staff really know the people they work with and what the beliefs and additudes are. May seem weird but I bet calling and asking before you see the next person may be helpful. Us receptionists really know all the dirt
Is it not possible to call places and talk to the front desk people? Can you just call please you have recommended and talk to the person who awnsers “hi…I know this is weird but I have a question. I did XYZ and I went to 2 docs and they were nasty. I need this and that but I need someone who will not be like the others. What is your person like?”
Maybe you can try to call and pre-screen
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Laura Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 1:16 am
“why he please”???? I think I meant left or walked out
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:57 pm
Ew. Doesn’t he realize he works for you? You are the patient!
I’m going to vote for Planned Parenthood too. If you are comfortable of course. They take appointments, are on a sliding scale, and yes, they offer abortions at some of their sites (in San Diego there is one clinic that does abortions for 3 million people) but they also support women in their choices of adoption, birth choices, etc.
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Sophia Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 5:34 pm
I second the support they give women! I was in the room with my very single, unemployed cousin when they gave her the positive pregnancy test, and in response to her terrified “how can I do this??” the nurse immediately began telling her of all the services she could apply for to get help raising her baby. It is a common misconception that they say “Welp, you’re pregnant, when do you wanna schedule your abortion?”
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:57 pm
ugh. I am slowly but surely thinking about trying to conceive, and after reading your accounts of pregnany and T1′s birth, I’ve really been thinking about the midwife/homebirth/birthing center route, and I’ve already started thinking about all of the things you bring up.
I can’t believe you were treated this way, he should have had the professional muster to tell you that he needed ot ask those quesitons by law.
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June 15th, 2010 on 4:58 pm
I just want to quickly chime in that I had a fantastic experience with the Planned Parenthood in Denton. Granted, this was two years ago, but I was stressed out (needed birth control without insurance). It was a wonderful experience and I highly recommend it if you don’t mind the drive up 35.
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June 15th, 2010 on 5:01 pm
Hi Jenna – everyone said it already but I must chime in and say that I’m so proud of you for sticking up for yourself and for naming the doc here! That takes a lot of courage. I hope you can find a much better doc soon!!
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June 15th, 2010 on 5:02 pm
I wouldn’t bother trying to get a doctor to prescribe birth control without a pap. It’s pretty rare. Planned Parenthood is the only place I’ve heard of where paps are considered optional by default.
Why don’t you want a pap, btw?
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JessicaMayLords Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 9:36 pm
The doctor’s office I worked at often wanted women to get a pap once a year as well. I have gotten two in the three years I’ve been married, just to make sure things are okay, but I don’t plan on getting another one until I’m ready to get pregnant. Since it appears that Jenna and TH were virgins before they were married (like my husband and I were) paps aren’t super necessary; they’re mostly looking for cervical cancer caused by HPV. If you were both virgins, then you won’t have HPV. There ARE other things that can cause abnormalities and cervical cancer, but they’re very very rare in young women. I can understand her not wanting a pap if she doesn’t think she needs one; I certainly don’t feel the need (or want!) to get one anytime soon!
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R Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 10:06 pm
It’s not the doctor’s office – it used to be the standard of care to do a pap smear every year. Recently, though, they changed the standard of care and after a certain period of normal paps, you can get one every few years. Still, doctors are concerned because they think patients won’t show up for their well-woman exams. It’s not just for the pap smear that you’re supposed to go once a year but also for the breast exam and the internal exam.
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Sandra Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 4:26 am
Yes, I’d understand any reason, even that one. I only ask her reasons because I was curious – if it was an issue or privacy, or something like that. Some people just do not like to do them (and who could blame them? They’re not exactly fun!).
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R Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 7:30 pm
@Sandra, I was applying to @JessicaMayLords with that comment
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The Doc Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 10:31 pm
The current for recommendations for paps are every 3 years if you’ve had 3 normal annual paps… and only if you **and your partner** are monogamous.
With a minimum 10% mistaken paternity in this country, are you ever really sure? You enter a marriage or relationship with a foundation of trust, but some element of reality must suggest that you never REALLY know what your partner is up to. I trust my partner 110% and would never let suspicion come between us, but we both look out for ourselves when it comes to being behind the doctor’s door. Infertility, HIV, hepatitis… There is little harm in screening, and if it comes up negative every time, it’s just confirmation of what I already know to be true – I’m low risk. My partner advocates that I advocate for myself when it comes to things related to my body and I return the favor.
And, I wish I had a nickel for every “virgin” Mormon, Catholic, Muslim, etc… who confides in me that they are actually not. There’s a reason the holy books go so far as to outline teachings about this kind of thing – As Jenna has said herself, sex is a “biological need” and therefore hard to resist. We are human and imperfect in so many ways.
I’ve taken to asking elders (like 80 year olds) if they use recreational drugs… because some of them do and admit it freely. I had an 85 year old who was using cocaine to treat the pain from bone cancer. I’m happy to increase your pain regimen or get you conscious sedation for your procedure if you admit you’re a heroin user, because you’ve developed a tolerance to our narcotics and they aren’t going to provide you with relief! Just because you wear a cross or a garment or a hijab doesn’t mean you don’t struggle with addictions/habits of all sorts… I ask, you answer, we move on.
And… for what it’s worth, just because you get out of the pap doesn’t mean you get out of the bimanual examination. In the words of one of my favorite OB/GYN colleagues – every woman deserves a finger in her vagina every year. It sounds crass, but that’s not the intent: I would hate to miss a cancer or a growth, wouldn’t you? Ovarian cancer is one of the most obscure and hard-to-diagnose cancers out there with a horrific prognosis if you don’t catch it early.
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June 15th, 2010 on 5:08 pm
I’ll second the teaching hospital suggestion & seeing a family doctor. I have been in one for almost 10 years and I love the residents. They tend to be more open and responsive, as well as more up to date on medical stuff. We just switched out of a teaching family practice to follow a resident we loved. She is a family doc so I only saw an OB for my pregnancy and even then I started late on the OB stuff.
I am already planning to change my OB for my next pregnancy as I want VBAC and my current OB isn’t as open as I’d like. Don’t get frustrated – maybe it is a case of asking more questions first – like what are your practices feelings about home births? I have to do the same to find the right VBAC OB.
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June 15th, 2010 on 5:11 pm
I’m still reeling from hearing about this. I’ve never heard of a doctor doing this before and it’s so frustrating to hear about it happening to a good person. I mean really, what was he thinking?! Maybe you’ve already asked her, but maybe your midwife could refer you to an OBGYN who they might work with. Then you would KNOW that they would be understanding and cooperative. I hope you have better luck and find someone who will act simply professional and not antagonize.
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June 15th, 2010 on 5:13 pm
Wow…just wow! I didn’t go back and read your previous posts, but from what I remember, they were all male. Have you considered going to see a female OBGYN? I will only go to females and although I’m one of the just nod my head and smile people currently, I feel that women Dr’s are more considerate to other woman’s needs. I’ve also seen nurse practitioner’s who are also great and can give you a prescription. If you are going to try this again, see if you can talk to the exact person you are going to see before actually going into the office. I’m sure you already did this, but did your mid-wife suggest a doctor for you to see?
I’m so very sorry that you have to go through this! And you deserve LOTS of ice cream and cupcake too!
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WM Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 5:33 pm
Can I ditto this? Not to generalize about male OBGYN’s, but I’ve had the same experience.
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Jenn Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 9:44 pm
I completely disagree about women doctors being more considerate (though I will admit that some may be). I’ve had both male and female OBGYNs and I prefer male. I filled out the large amount of new patient paperwork for the female doctor and part of it asked if I had ever been raped…to which I replied in the affirmative. Because of that experience I am VERY uncomfortable in situations where I have to be without clothing around anyone but my husband. The female doctor came in to do my exam and saw how I was reacting and told me “it’s not that big of a deal”. (I assume that she did not bother reading any of the paperwork I was required to fill out.)
When I went to a male doctor the paperwork did not ask the same questions, and he is still (by far) more considerate of the fact that I am uncomfortable. I even prefer him to his (female) nurse practitioner because he is so much more considerate.
I guess what I really want to get across is that there are both male and female doctors that are inconsiderate.
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June 15th, 2010 on 5:27 pm
I am sure you understand why I don’t understand the need for this post. I really don’t understand any of this. Why is home birth such an issue? I feel like calling this doctor and asking for an explanation…. I am sorry you are going through this Jenna. Get back on the right trail and think about how amazing your home birth was.
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Sara Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 7:40 pm
To better understand the vitriol and anger that some (not all!) medical practitioners have towards natural births, check out this link:
http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2010/05/waterbirth-dangers-newly-born-babies.html
Clearly that represents the extreme end of the spectrum, but these are the kinds of feelings that people who choose homebirths may have to face. It’s really, really awful that women making that choice have to face such anger from mainstream medicine.
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June 15th, 2010 on 5:32 pm
Not to be rude but…just kidding! (other post)
Poor thing, we put ourselves in a very vulnerable position when we see doctors and it can be SOOOO frustrating when they don’t want to listen to us. I know they are just people too and we can’t expect them to be perfect, but they really have to appreciate the power that they hold. Totally understand.
Big squishy computer hugs to you! My recipe to solve this problem would be something along the lines of a nice walk, some good ice cream, and a nice long hug from the hubs.
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June 15th, 2010 on 5:35 pm
you may add this to the long long long list of reasons i choose alternative medicine. BC is the only thing I go to the gyno for… and I hate it too!
I’m sorry Jenna. I think you should give your next gyno a heads up of your birth. That might help!
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June 15th, 2010 on 5:39 pm
Is it wrong that I clicked over to their page and immediately got out my cell phone to call them and let them know I would never, ever be using their services and would let others know the same? I stopped myself though
I disagree with the idea that you went in there defensively and were abrupt and dismissive in your approach. Here’s the deal. He turned around, raised his eyebrows, and you clearly felt he stated the thing about not seeing an OB in a rude way. You went in to this appointment with HIGH hopes, due to all the great recommendations. You let him know you had a bad experience, and that you were just trying to get birth control pills.
I don’t know about anyone else, but my doctor always asks “what are you here for?” and then I say “oh, just need blah blah blah”. Once I tell them what I need, they then respond with whatever they need to do/ask to help me out.
Jenna, I would seriously go to Dr. Aimee Wright. You can call ahead, the receptionist is sweet as pie and the nurses are so charming and friendly. Sorry for another bad experience
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Sophia Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 5:41 pm
Also, you didn’t say “I’m not answering any of your questions, just give me pills buster!!”. You just let him know, hey, this road of the conversation we might be about to walk together is what led me here in the first place. You were honest about your bad experience. To me, saying “I just need birth control pills” also implies “nope, no health problems or complaints, totally healthy even with the home birth, just need to put my baby maker on pause, let’s do what we need to do with a round of questions to get to that point”.
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Jenny Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 12:33 am
I completely agree with you. I don’t feel as though he should have been offended or that Jenna was asking him to be a “pill dispenser”. It’s common to say to your doctor, “I’m just here to get some medication.” Obviously, I can’t speak for Jenna, but I’m pretty sure that if the doctor said, “This medication won’t be right for you for these reasons,” she would have listened and taken it into consideration (while also having done her research because that’s the Jenna we all know and love). For him to jump to a conclusion that she didn’t want talk about the birth control or her care, and just walk out, without explaining his perspective, is completely unprofessional.
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Jenny Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 12:34 am
I completely agree with you. I don’t feel as though he should have been offended or that Jenna was asking him to be a “pill dispenser”. It’s common to say to your doctor, “I’m just here to get some medication.” Obviously, I can’t speak for Jenna, but I’m pretty sure that if the doctor said, “This medication won’t be right for you for these reasons,” she would have listened and taken it into consideration (while also having done her research because that’s the Jenna we all know and love). For him to jump to a conclusion that she didn’t want talk about the birth control or her care and just walk out, without explaining his perspective, is completely unprofessional.
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Jennifer Reply:
June 27th, 2010 at 8:16 pm
“Implies”??? Doctors cannot assume — they get SUED. BCP are not candy. They are a medication that comes with risks. Each new OB/GYN I’ve gone to has asked about previous pregnancies, deliveries as well as taken a full H&P before I’d ever ask, or they’d ever consider writing me a prescription. If she walks in stating she didn’t have prenatal care, and hasn’t bothered to have a pap in 2 years, why on earth should he be expected to assume that everything else is a-okay.
I don’t think any of the “how dare they?” contingency here has any idea the amount of training, debt, or years are put in by OB’s before they practice, or the staggering amount of malpractice insurance they pay b/c of lawsuits. Yes, docs *should* be held accountable when they make mistakes, but OB/GYN’s are held to an impossible standard — everyone expects a healthy baby, perfect outcome, and they want someone to blame when it doesn’t happen that way. Often the “birth is natural – you don’t need doctors” camp manages to forget that before doctors and hospitals got involved the infant and mother mortality rate was significantly higher.
I do think people should have the right to give birth they way they want to, but that doesn’t mean that a doc can’t ask questions about it to be sure they have the whole story before treating them.
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June 15th, 2010 on 5:42 pm
I’m surprised that their “slogan” is “Blending modern, sophisticated treatment with compassionate care.” You should consider using the Better Business Bureau (bbb.org) and Angie’s List to find some one better. I know you’re trying to get over this, but if you can find it in you, definitely find some way to file a formal complaint – because if he was so blatantly rude to you, I’m sure you’re not alone.
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June 15th, 2010 on 5:47 pm
This may be a very sexist thing to say, but maybe you should try a Female OBGYN? I don’t have anything against male OBGYNs, I saw one for a long time, but I think sometimes female doctors in the field are more accepting of personal choices as they themselves are women. I don’t have a good recommendation here in Dallas as I just see a Primary Care Physician, but I hope you find someone who won’t lecture you!
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June 15th, 2010 on 5:48 pm
Even if you have a heightened sensitivity to it as someone above suggested, unless you were yelling at the top of your lungs – he’s the one that WAAAAAYYYYY over reacted like a spoiled child. IF you were yelling at the top of your lungs… well, hooray for standing up for youself! But maybe take the vocal level down a peg.
You’re mid-wife or other midwives that she works with must have patients who go from homebirths to OBs for the exact same reasons…. can they suggest someone?
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June 15th, 2010 on 5:48 pm
Wow, that is insane!!! I cant believe how rude he was! I am sure you have gotten a million Dr’s names for referrals but I think you should go see my Dr. Her name is Dr. Heather Neville and she is AMAZING. I was referred to her by 2 different people after having bad experiences with OB’s in the past. I have since referred 2 friends to her and they both love her too. I am 35 weeks prego, and she has been so wonderful through the whole process AND through the process of trying to conceive (which was a long process). Good luck and email me if you want any more info on her
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June 15th, 2010 on 5:51 pm
Good for you for standing up for yourself!! I’ve heard of women who do homebirths, but still have OB’s who are understanding. Why do some doctors have to be jerks?? I’m glad you called him out on here. Personally, I wouldn’t want to go to a dr. that treated patients this way.
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June 15th, 2010 on 6:26 pm
I can’t help but wonder if the doctor was under the impression that you had received no medical guidance at all during your pregnancy and delivery. Was he aware that you were under the solid care of a reputible midwife? That you had medical testing done, an ultrasound, a delivery and post delivery checkup also performed by the midwife? I only ask because I think a common misconception of homebirth is that not choosing an OB for prenatal care means rejecting all prenatal care.
He should have made himself more clear, but then you came in stressed, tired, and prepared for battle. You stood up for yourself- good for you (and I really mean that), but in the end you still lost.
No one likes to feel unappreciated, not you, not your doctor. He spent years of his life studying and practicing to provide the best medical care he can. He educated himself much like you did when you made the decision to homebirth. While you probably didn’t intend for it to come across this way, I’m afraid that he felt like you were saying to him “I reject everything that you have studied and practiced over. I don’t care about your opinions or what you think, I just want my meds.”
Maybe that’s what you really want, but saying it reflects poorly on the time, energy, and passion you spent in making your homebirth decision. I feel badly for you for that. You deserve better. And so did he.
Regardless, hang in there. Being a new mama is stressful and hard, but it really does get easier. I promise. Good luck with finding a good fit for your needs, I honestly believe that sometimes, that’s the hardest part!
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Katherine (a.k.a. Sparkles) Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 7:32 pm
I agree with Andria in her first paragraph… Maybe that is what he was thinking?
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Kelli Nicole Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 7:22 am
The sad thing is that many ob’s don’t view midwives as reputable sources of prenatal care (not saying it was the case with this one, but it sounds like it may have been). Often a woman will transfer to a hospital during a home birth and will walk in WITH her midwife and the staff will repeatedly “ask”, “So, you had NO prenatal care?” They often discount the care midwives give. I have friends that believe the exact same way.
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Katherine (a.k.a. Sparkles) Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 9:59 am
Oh I am well aware of that K.N. But you cannot ASSUME he discounted a midwives care- TW didn’t even get far enough in the appointment to see if that is his true impression. ]
Frankly, health care providers have to have a dialogue with people. What if he took “you didn’t see an OB your entire pregnancy” as in ‘unassisted home birth’/ ‘No prenatal care’. That is when TW could have clarified “I had a midwife follow me prenatally- have you worked with women who have had home births before? I had an uncomplicated low-risk pregnancy….” and see where that led her rather than ANTICIPATING a negative response. If he had chosen to go down that path to giving her a lecture I would THEN have expected her to interject “Can we please focus on the current visits purpose rather than discussing your perception of home birth? Because I have no regrets with my prenatal care or my birth experience”.
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Kelli Nicole Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 10:01 am
Like I said, I wasn’t assuming he had this opinion, just that there was the possibility.
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Barb Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 12:03 pm
Ditto to this Katherine. We don’t know whether Jenna was able to clarify that and from the brief summary of the visit it seems that it was not specified, so he very well may have assumed an unassisted home birth.
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Kelli Nicole Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 2:31 pm
I can totally see this and I understand this. According to Jenna, however, the ob didn’t say “You didn’t have any prenatal care?” he said “You didn’t see an ob?” I don’t think this is a big deal, I was just giving one view and answer to Andria’s question.
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June 15th, 2010 on 6:31 pm
hahaha…not that this should mean anything, but that picture on his website makes him look like a pimp…
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June 15th, 2010 on 6:33 pm
While I don’t agree with you on some of the birth-related medical issues you write about (although I fully support your right to do whatever you think best for yourself and your baby), as a future health-care provider, I’m appalled at the way you were treated. You’ve already had the home birth! It’s not like he’s going to talk you out of it (not that he could or should) – I don’t know what purpose he thought it would serve. If he thought you were ridiculous for not seeing an OB/GYN during your pregnancy, at least shouldn’t he be happy you’re seeing one NOW? You start from where your patient is and go from there – you can’t change what’s already happened. I agree with those who have said that he shouldn’t just prescribe the pills without taking a history, but it sounds like he wasn’t even willing to have a conversation with you (given the walking-out-of-the-room). I also highly recommend PP – nothing but good experiences with them – and find the idea of a teaching hospital intriguing too. I really hope the third time’s the charm!
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Jenna Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 6:54 pm
I actually told TH today that he was only disservice to his craft today, because I’m not very likely to want to go to an OBGYN after this, you know?
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June 15th, 2010 on 6:36 pm
I’m so sorry, Jenna. That sucks big time. Would you consider driving into Dallas to see the midwives that I went to? I can send you the info. I think you’re going to have much better luck in Chicago. so so sorry. I hate feeling like this. Why? Why does it have to be like this with some doctors? (uh-oh, Forrest is going to get an earful tonight:)
I hope you’re feeling better. You’re awesome! I wish I could come over and give you a huge hug and we could bake something together:)
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June 15th, 2010 on 6:46 pm
Delicate discussion. All providers, self included, have an internal meter and sometimes it goes off and tells you that you shouldn’t be seeing this patient. It’s IMPOSSIBLE for me to say whether my own meter would have gone off without having been there instead, said what he said and heard first hand what you said and how you said it. I do think that your previous experience may have made you a bit fast to take the offensive. You’ve always been strong willed and no-nonsense about your homebirth stance and without a doubt you’ve even offended some of your readers with your candor and refusal to back down.
Depending on how you responded to the MD he might have gotten this same impression…that you were hostile to him. That would only get worse if you told him he just needed to write you for OCPs.
It’s also possible that you were right and he was just warming up to give you a lecture on home birth and you just managed to cut him off at the pass. Like I said above…IMPOSSIBLE for me to say with certainty. Others have said very well the possibility that you came across too strongly or aggressively while other folks have applauded your right to stand up for yourself. My only concern is that you’re using the latter as an excuse to always be the former with traditional providers. Let the next provider lay out all their cards before you make a decision about their agenda.
That all said…like I said on Twitter…if all you want is OCPs then I suggest you go see a PCP instead of an OBGYN. There’s no reason you NEED to be seeing an OBGYN and it’s likely a recipe for disaster since you don’t really want all the specialized perspective they’re bringing to the table. See a PCP who is much less likely to go head-to-head with you on the issue of homebirth and I think you’ll be happier.
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Jenna Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 6:56 pm
Thanks Justin! I appreciate your perspective.
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Laura Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 1:31 am
she said exactly what I was wondering.
I don’t know what happened but because you have been through so much from other people about your choices with homebirth….you have become really firm and maybe almost overly defensive. Maybe you thought you were just explaining yourself but he thought you were being really aggressive and rude. I am not assuming this happened but from reading your blog…..what has happened thru the pregnancy and post birth with your choices…your reactions to it all……..and already having a bad doc …it is maybe possible that all of that came out as being overly aggressive. There is no way that you wouldn’t be super defensive at this point. I know I would be if I were you. Not saying that what he did was right but maybe how you thought you were coming across was not how you were perceived. Just an idea
But regardless…….I can’t imagine how terrible that must have all been. Even if it did come out wrong on your part…you felt that you were just standing up for yourself and were once again rejected.and BIG TIME. I can’t imagine how insulting and hurtful that must have been. .it must have been a really really hard thing. You are a new mom….kind of newlywed still….away from all other family….and here you are getting so much grief about the homebirth.
What a really really crummy thing to happen
Just remember “some days are just like that, even in Australia”
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June 15th, 2010 on 6:48 pm
I want to offer my condolences on such horrible post-delivery visits. No one should be treated that way by a professional, especially one that we trust with our health and well-being.
That being said, I showed this post to a few of my doctor friends and they all said that — JUST based on what you’ve written — they probably would’ve hesitated or refused to treat you too. Having many friends who are doctors, they all tell me that the one thing they hate the most is being treated as pill dispensers. OBs are apt to be extra cautious, especially since the OBGYN specialty has one of the highest malpractice lawsuit rates in the medical field. One doctor friend, who is an OB, told me that she would never prescribe anything without doing a pap first, and suggested that what you said to the doctor (again, this is purely based on what you have written in the post) would have offended her.
HOWEVER, the one thing that my friends all said was that the doctor did not react as politely or as professionally as he should have, even if he was offended or did not agree with your decision to have a home birth. The right thing to do would have been to try his best to get a full medical history, give you a physical examination, determine if the pill is right for you, and if so, to write you a prescription. And I completely agree with my friends on this regard.
I would suggest seeing a GP, visiting a teaching hospital, or going to a reputable OBGYM practice that has nurse practitioners on staff (in my experience, they tend to be more patient than the doctors themselves and can write prescriptions) to get your BCP. Good luck!
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June 15th, 2010 on 6:49 pm
Boo! Bad doctor! Hope your next try goes right. Third time’s a charm right?
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June 15th, 2010 on 6:52 pm
Are you aware of the difference in foundational perspectives between D.O.’s and M.D.’s? You would be far more likely to have the experience you want seeing a D.O. They hold the same lisence and can do all the same things, they are just trained differently in their perspective, and the perspective of a D.O. is definitely more condusive to your feelings towards your healthcare. I could go on forever on how much I love them.
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June 15th, 2010 on 7:11 pm
Jenna, I am so sorry you keep going through the ringer just to get a check-up. That unprofessional behavior is appalling. I’m glad you stood up for yourself and I hope he is regretting his own choices today treating you in such a manner.
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June 15th, 2010 on 7:12 pm
What a jerk! On occasion, I have dealt with lousy medical personnel (utlrasound tech from h*ll springs to mind), but at least in Canada, I don’t have to pay for that kind of cr*ppy treatment! Boo on Dr. Hoffman!
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June 15th, 2010 on 7:41 pm
So sorry to hear you have had such awful experiences…
Very very unprofessional! I tend to behave like you do on your first post-partum visit, and I feel as badly as you did afterwards, that’s why I generally don’t see doctors very often. I know it’s a weak way out, and patients as a group have to learn how to stand up for themselves. I think this particular doctor violated his oath in refusing to continue with your appointment, and no matter what – even if he doesn’t like being a “pill dispensary” he had an OBLIGATION to give you the time and the effort you deserved as a patient and new mom. Very selfish and just plain cruel on his part, as his feelings can’t even be compared to the trouble you had gone to come and see him with your baby in tow.
I see you got a lot of people recommending going to Planned Parenthood. I went there for birth control prescription a few years ago when I didn’t have insurance, and to tell you the truth its doctors and staff spent more time with me than any of my doctors. I did have to wait for a looooooong time to be seen though but maybe it was because I went to Planned Parenthood in Santa Monica, CA.
A friend of mine for her gynecological needs sees a nurse practitioner within a medical group who refers her to a doctor if necessary, my friend seriously swears by her. Maybe that’s another option to explore?
In any event, I feel for you and I hope you can find an open-minded and reasonable specialist soon! xoxo
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June 15th, 2010 on 7:49 pm
AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! I have had similar completely inappropriate and hurtful and frustrating experiences with doctors and they suck…to put it lightly. Just know there is someone (I think many someones) who literally feel your pain. AHHHHHH!!!! I think I want to eat chocolate now too!
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June 15th, 2010 on 7:49 pm
Oh Jenna I’m so so sorry! TH had mentioned this to Dave at work and he told me and I was so mad! I can’t believe he did that, it seriously is so uncalled for. Ridiculous.
I’ll be the first to admit that back when you first started talking about pregnancy/birth related topics I had a hard time swallowing some of it. Then I don’t remember what post it was, but there was some post that it just clicked with me and I truly came to appreciate everything you said and had said concerning the topic. It hit me that we can have different ways of doing things and still all be doing it right for ourselves. I loved your birth post, your birth pictures, and I was so glad that everything worked out how you had hoped. And although birth to me was (and I suspect likely will be in the future) nothing more than just a process of getting that baby out of me, because that’s all I cared about, I recognize that others may want a different experience than that, and I appreciate you opening my eyes a bit more to that.
Anyway, my point of this is that I am just so disappointed that you have been judged so harshly by so many, especially those in the medical field, and especially after you have successfully had a beautiful and healthy baby boy. I am just so sorry, and I hope you know that there are many of us cheering you on.
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June 15th, 2010 on 7:57 pm
I’m sorry you went through this Jenna. I’m voting for Planned Parenthood to get your immediate needs addressed. I’ve been to them before and had a fine experience. It will buy you time to either get to Chicago or find another doctor in Dallas. Or hey, you could go back to them again later too if you need to.
This doctor sounds terrible and I agree that the way he handled himself was out of line. He needed to tell you that he had some questions he needed to get answers to, and not just leave the room. Totally unprofessional.
I might approach the next appointment a little differently. I just switched OBGYNs at 25 weeks pregnant and asked if I could first have a consultation. I wanted to know if the doctor and I were a good fit. I told him I had questions, wanted to get to know him, understand his approach. It gave us a common ground to get to know each other. I did let him introduce himself and give an overview of his qualifications first, and then I asked all the hard questions I had. I felt we were a good fit and could deliver this baby so I switched over
No one has the right to treat anyone else with a lack of respect. And it’s important that you stood up for yourself. Doctors, like anyone else, want to feel valued and sometimes that takes a little finessing. Sure they give out pills, but they also treat the whole person, and even though this guy was a jerk, perhaps he was not sure how to react to a home birth. Or as someone else pointed out, maybe he didn’t even fully understand that you had medical care throughout your pregnancy and had many excellent, well researched and admirable reasons for making your choice.
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June 15th, 2010 on 8:01 pm
Hi. I’ve been reading your blog for awhile and I think T1 is the cutest ever! My husband and I just starting talking/thinking about a little one so I started stalking mommy blogs for tips/ advice. I love your blog and I love how opinionated you are! Your home-birth sounds like it was a wonderful experience for you and your family and I hate that you are being judged for that. At the same time as a person pretty invested in the medical community, both my husband and father are doctors I just want to sort of offer a bit of insight. First, I have to tell you that I hate doctors that judge and force you to believe only what they say. Second, not all doctors are like that, some are genuinely interested and want to know about alternatives. I hope that you find a doctor that does just that! However, you might be surprised about how little it takes for a doctor to be sued. I mean it’s really so crazy and scary for so many doctors (and their families). The doctor may have asked a question that you anticipated was going to be followed by judgement etc, but at the same time, he’s required by law to get information about birth history, your medical history just by law.
Although (I AM TOTALLY MAKING THIS SCENARIO UP) you may just be visiting him for birth control, say there is some rare complication from the birth control and an undiagnosed condition that you have and you have a complication from the birth control. Since he didn’t ask about your previous medical history he could really be liable for any harm you encountered from the birth control. It seems silly and due to your previous AWFUL experience you may have anticipated that there was judgement, but in order to provide you the best care doctors need a history and the fact that you didn’t see an OB for the duration of your pregnancy needs to be charted. However, he should have asked it in a less dramatic, offense, and judgy way.
Listen, by no means am I excusing his behavior. He should not have treated you in an unfair way and he should have at least stayed in the room to speak with you. I think you are a brave person for speaking up for yourself. I think your advice to women about being educated is an important one.
Regardless ice cream and alot of it is the answer to a very bad no good day. Ice cream and a bath!
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June 15th, 2010 on 8:15 pm
I was reading this and thinking “She better call these jerk out!” the entire time. I was going to be upset if you hadn’t. That guy is a loser.
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LeiLani Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 8:17 pm
*this jerk
(I hate when I don’t proofread my comments!)
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June 15th, 2010 on 8:19 pm
Jenna, wanted to leave a comment for you as well, since I engaged a fellow commenter re: planned parenthood. I have found that University Health Care Systems (of which you may soon be a beneficiary of now that TH is off to BizSchool) are much better at the whole Only need Birth Control Appointment and other atypical medical options and are normally less judge-y. Good luck!
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June 15th, 2010 on 8:28 pm
Are you sure that you need to see an OB/GYN? Where I live (not TX…), a NP affiliated with an OB/GYN practice can do an annual exam, administer a pap, prescribe birth control, and give you a prescription to treat a UTI. I would try to find the biggest OB/GYN practice you can in your area (i.e., a long list of docs and nurses) and ask specifically to see a nurse. The big practices typically can get you in quicker, too, especially if you don’t care if you do not see a doctor.
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June 15th, 2010 on 8:35 pm
Jenna, how embarrased I would have felt if this had happened to me. And I can totally see it happening. You were psyched up to stand up for yourself and you stood up to someone who lacked the emotional intelligence and humility to deal with it. I don’t want to blame the state of Texas for what happened to you, but I bet you wouldn’t have had two strikes at two different doctors’ offices in Chicago or Poland or lots of other places! I agree with the comments noting that doctors do have legal questions to ask/liability concerns/etc., but bottom line is that the doctor was an arrogant jerk to walk out on you like that. You know, you probably somehow hurt his feelings but he absolutely should not have ended the appointment like he did, especially after you worked so hard to get there.
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June 15th, 2010 on 8:37 pm
Hi Jenna,
I have been a long time follower since you were a Bee and have never commented but can’t hold it any longer!! My mom is a General Practitioner and although the hubs and I don’t have bebes yet, my mom and I have discussed that when we do, having it at home or at a birthing center is the way to go. She explained to me that this is what she originally wanted to do but was worried and decided to move forward with a hospital birth, no epi. She is the best doctor, open minded, caring, etc. I know I am pretty biased since she is my mom but her patients really do love her just as much. I would be more than happy to send you her info if you are interested. Shoot me an email at crystalsermino@yahoo.com. Hugs!!
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June 15th, 2010 on 8:45 pm
I’m going to dare to post a comment that you might not like but that I think is fair to your doctor in the big picture.
The way you were treated was extremely rude and unprofessional. There is no excuse for that. But just to play Devil’s Advocate, have you considered perhaps why your doctor or any OBGYN has reacted to you the way that they have?
Did you consider that it is not because “they think you are stupid” as you’ve suggested before? Most doctors and nurses enter into their respective professions because they want to help people- not scold them. Most of us also want to respect our patient’s decisions whether they like it or not. HOWEVER, we are required in good faith to provide our patients with our medical and nursing opinions even if it means possibly offending our patients.
As a labor and delivery nurse, I have worked with both OBs AND Midwives. I work at a non-profit hospital in Denver and when I work with MidWives we avoid all interventions etc. We do water births every single day etc.
I’m not going to pepper you with statistics. I’m going to speak honestly and respectfully from the heart. I am a Labor and Delivery nurse and I am here to support women.
Even in the best case scenarios I have seen women who were perfectly health almost die. I have seen this happen BOTH with OBs AND Midwives.
I am relieved and happy for you that your homebirth was exactly what you wanted. BUT it would be a disservice to your readers for me to just hoot and holler and say what a jerk your doctor was.
Perhaps his reaction was out of concern because he, much like myself, has probably seen very tragic outcomes with women and their babies. He most likely entered into this profession to try and help women avoid that. Again, I am not condoning his reaction to you whatsoever but I suspect you may have been on the receiving end of a very exasperated doctor who in a few milliseconds remembered all of those tragic outcomes.
Giving birth at home is a personal choice. I think Midwifery is an excellent profession.
Doctors and nurses witness tragedy every day and until you have seen a woman die in front of you from giving birth, or until you watch an infant die from labor or birth, I don’t think you will understand that the reason these professionals react so negatively toward you might not be about “you” at all.
I wish you the best. I truly do. I hope you are able to get the kind of care that you want and the respect that you deserve.
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Katherine (a.k.a. Sparkles) Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 10:02 am
From a pediatric RN to a L&D RN- very well put! Kudos! Two thumbs up!
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Austyn Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 1:22 pm
Well said. “until you have seen a woman die in front of you from giving birth, or until you watch an infant die from labor or birth, I don’t think you will understand that the reason these professionals react so negatively toward you might not be about “you” at all” So true also that it takes so little time to recall the tragedies you have witnessed. That can have such a profound emotional effect on a healthcare provider.
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June 15th, 2010 on 8:57 pm
I never get a male doctor. They don’t understand and I’ve been told that my cramps “couldn’t be that bad” when I’ve tried to get birth control. I ALWAYS make sure I have a female doctor. They understand and I feel more comfortable around them.
Could your midwife recommend anyone? I’d hate to have you go through that process a third time. Maybe she has recommendations.
Sorry, Jenna. Good luck. We’re all pulling for you.
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June 15th, 2010 on 8:59 pm
I think there have been a lot of helpful suggestions here. I apologize if I’m reiterating something someone else said, because I did not read all the comments… but if it were me, I would write or call and submit a formal complaint about this doctor. Hospitals and clinics usually have a “patient relations” line that is specifically for this sort of thing. They want to hear feedback about people’s experiences, because most places want to have a GOOD reputation, so they make an effort to right any wrongs. I don’t know that this place has one, but it might be worth looking in to. I’m a firm believer in giving feedback to organizations or businesses, good or bad!
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JessicaMayLords Reply:
June 15th, 2010 at 9:28 pm
I would encourage this as well, but that being said… it probably won’t do anything. That’s sad, I know, but people complained a lot at the clinic I worked for; there was one doctor in particular that prided himself on 5-7 minute appointments (instead of the regular 15) and there were times he was in the room for even LESS time than that. People complained, but nothing ever happened. He’s a doctor. Apparently he had immunity or something.
One thing you CAN do is go to http://www.ratemds.com/ and check out some doctors or midlevel providers there; you can also give the doctor you saw a low rating.
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June 15th, 2010 on 9:21 pm
Google Dr. Robert Biter.
I wish you could fly to Encinitas, CA for your appointments. He’s an OB/GYN who totally encourages home births. He recently resigned from a local hopital (much to a lot of his patients dismay) and is opening his own birthing center because he feels so strongly about birth being a natural process.
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June 15th, 2010 on 9:21 pm
Hey Jenna! That sucks. It totally does. In some ways it’s sort of ridiculous that grown women need to see a medical professional to get hormonal birth control AS IS; I was on OCPs for 2 years, and I managed our clinic’s Teen Clinic for a year. In all that time I left with two equal and opposing views: 1. any female that plans to have sex should be able to get hormonal birth control whenever she wants and 2. providers rarely state the side effects and dangers of hormonal birth control (in particular IUDs and Depo-Provera) in a way that’s honest and thorough. Like I said, I was on OCPs for years and had a TON of problems with the first one I was on, but didn’t realize that these were side effects until my side effects got really nasty. When I brought up my concerns over Yaz and deep vein thrombosis, my fears were often brushed aside, even though I had known women who had gotten blood clots by using the medication.
So here are the two problems that I have: birth control should be easily accessible but women should be better warned of the inherent risks of such medications. Sort of opposite. But. Yeah that’s where I stand on that.
As far as YOUR situation, I (like others) would suggest going to a female FNP or PA. I went to several doctors like I like (all male) that treated me fine as far as my birth control, but the midlevel female providers I went to were WONDERFUL. I felt like they were less likely to just give me a medication to take care of any random problem I had, and I felt like they were more open to alternative therapies. This was in Humboldt County, California, though; it’s hella hippie. It may be similar in Texas, however.
When I told my doctor about the possibility of starting Natural Family Planning, he looked at me like I was kind of crazy, but “hey, it’s up to you.” When I told my PA, she got REALLY excited for me, and said “ooohh I think you’ll love it!! You’ll feel so much more yourself off these hormones, and your sex drive will increase, and you won’t be worrying yourself about drug side effects…” She asked how I’d feel if I got ‘accidentally’ pregnant in the next year, and I told her “Well, it wouldn’t be my first choice, but eventually I’d be happy about it.” She gave me tons of info, told me some good websites to look up, asked about my cycle, and then asked if I wanted to be fit for a diaphragm. The whole thing went so wonderfully!
So. That’s the really long way to say that I think you should try a midlevel female provider. They can prescribe medications, they have a good understanding of the medications, and if you can go to a clinic that has a Teen Clinic, there’s a good chance they’re FAR more knowledgeable about birth control in general than a lot of doctors – they have to deal with it more often!!!
Good luck my dear. You deserve good healthcare!!
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June 15th, 2010 on 9:23 pm
I’m a chicken-poop in most cases, but when my mom got sick and we thought she was getting good care and wasn’t, I became (well, my 3 siblings and I) become mom’s doctors. that is just what you have to do sometimes. On the flip side, I understand his ‘going by the law’ thing too. Just as a side note: he can’t sue you for slander, can he? The chicken poop in me wouldn’t put his name up there like that, not worth it for the trouble it could cause your family.
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June 15th, 2010 on 9:43 pm
Sparkles has written most of what I would add quite eloquently. As a physician, I am most certainly not a “pill dispenser” and would be (quietly) insulted for the intonation. I am responsible for ensuring that whatever I prescribe is not only the appropriate care but also the best fit. To determine so requires some dialogue, and it sounds like that was cut off at the pass.
Are you monogamous, is your husband manogamous, have you ever had an STD, do you participate in same-sex intercourse, do you participate in anal-sex, oral-sex, do you intend to have another child, are you safe in your home, have you ever been sexually abused, are you suffering from post-partum mood dysregulation, are you suicidal/homicidal/a harm to anyone’s property, when was your last breast exam, have you ever had an abnormal pap smear, have you ever had a blood clot, are you a smoker or use tobacco products otherwise, have you ever had a miscarriage or an abortion, what is your family history, have you had any abnormal discharge or foul odor, do you have difficulty achieving orgasm, do you have pain with intercourse… and the list goes on and on. Trust me, we are no more interested in the answers than we are in the price of rice in China (I sincerely think that I’ve seen/heard it all by now having pulled not only the usual long-lost condoms, tampons,and sex toys, but also both a crack pipe and an entire wiffle-ball out of various vaginas – yawn), save for the fact that these are all very personal and appropriate questions at any well-woman visit for the purpose of directing best recommendations. Certainly, the patient’s burden is to decide if the recommendation is in line with her best interest and personal goals and, as always, the patient has the right to decline to answer any question or agree to any recommended therapy. I wonder if he felt he could really have this conversation with you after the exchange you had already had in a few short minutes.
Look, from your perspective (as all things you write are) it sounds like he handled this poorly. I do think I would have handled it differently if you had come to me or any of my colleagues, However, I can’t help but wonder how it would go if he were to write about the exchange on his blog.
You are such a firecracker, Jenna, and I think it’s what makes your readers love you so much. That being said, he had never met you, doesn’t love you like we do, and doesn’t have to. It’s his practice and if he feels you are a risky patient (for whatever reason – be it reasonable or not) and you are not seriously ill, he doesn’t have to treat you. Sorry you went through that, though, as it sounds like it really sucked.
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Kat Speyer Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 2:44 pm
I really hope the crack pipe and wiffle ball weren’t in the same vagina.
Reminds me of some of the stories my husband has from his time as an RN and King County jail.
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crazydaisy Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 4:19 pm
Great comment- it’s great to get the other perspective.
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R Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 7:31 pm
That puts the cat toy my OBGYN mom once found in perspective.
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June 15th, 2010 on 9:51 pm
i’m sorry jenna. this post is one of the most gut wrenching posts i’ve ever read. i think it is terrible you had to endure such judgment, again. i concur, planned parenthood is probably the best option. i highly doubt anything you would say there would shock anyone. if that isn’t an option, have you checked mothering.com for doctor suggestions?
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June 15th, 2010 on 10:00 pm
you may have already gotten this advice (i haven’t read all of the comments), but try zale lipshy (UT southwestern university hospital). you will get what you need without the cockiness of an old codger dr.
btw, that dr COMPLETELY violated HIPAA by discussing this with your husband. legally, he shouldn’t have even acknowledged that you were his “patient”.
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Christiana (us meets uk) Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 2:55 pm
Just wanted to point out that on my medical forms, I allow my medical care to be discussed with my husband. So, depending on what she allowed on her forms, he may not have violated HIPAA at all.
Plus, he said they couldn’t complete the questions required by law – that information alone does not violate HIPPA.
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June 15th, 2010 on 10:26 pm
Jenna, you are BRAVE. and so AWESOME for standing up like that. i seriously don’t have that kind of guts.
i do have to mention my OBGYN. Dr. Leslie Wellborne is absolutely AMAZING. She may be a bit of a drive from Irving (she’s in Frisco), but i look FORWARD to seeing her. She’s very open-minded, and if you just want birth control, then she’ll just give you birth control! but i’d probably schedule an appt saying you’re coming in to get a birth control prescription instead of a full on check-up. It’s an ALL ladies office, and very VERY calming as you walk through the door. Just an overall AWESOME experience.
i’ve never felt comfortable with guy OBGYNs. maybe because i don’t like some other dude down there, but i’ve heard they are just way too cocky and think they know how it feels to do the whole giving birth thing. if not Dr. Wellborne, definitely try a woman OBGYN next.
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June 15th, 2010 on 10:50 pm
Yuck! That definitely sucks and you really don’t deserve to be treated like that. Even if you were being “hostile”, that’s no reason to walk out the door. Quite unprofessional. I’m really hoping that third time is a charm for you!
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June 15th, 2010 on 10:51 pm
Hi Jenna,
Have you called your midwife for doctor recommendations? Usually your midwife should know of a few doctors who would not judge/lecture you for your choice. If not, have you thought about finding a homeopathic doctor? Even a Nurse Practitioner may be of assistance.
Also you might consider, where ever you make your next appointment, to ask if the Practicing Doctors have issues with home births, this may help you to avoid having this happen again.
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June 15th, 2010 on 10:56 pm
So sorry this happened to you.
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June 15th, 2010 on 11:52 pm
A big hug to you for a horrible day. I hope you find someone who doesn’t behave like a 5 year old soon.
I know it’s different, but in Canada, I see a GP for my paps and birth control. I only see a OBGYN if there is a problem.
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June 16th, 2010 on 12:18 am
What a sad day for you!!! I would have been frustrated too. This doctor could have gotten his point across so much better by sitting down and having a discussion with you (not a lecture) rather than stomping out like a child. However, I do worry about the generalizations that are being made about doctors in general. I feel very passionately (probably a little bit the opposite from you) that doctors are educated to do good. They, for the most part, have your best interests in mind. Just because they carry an MD rather than the title of Midwife, doesn’t mean that they are any less concerned with your best interests. Just something to keep in mind. I get really frustrated with the generalizations made that doctors are “out to get us all.”
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June 16th, 2010 on 12:24 am
can your family doctor do an exam for you and prescribe birth control? Maybe they can’t I don’t know…I hate birth control in the form of pills (for me, they do crazy stuff to me and I am sick of trying different ones) so I probably don’t really know what I am talking about, HA! I hope the third time is a charm though, that sucks.
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June 16th, 2010 on 12:35 am
i’ve always gone to my GP for my birth control. i think if you have a GP you know and trust you should go that route – SO much easier!
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June 16th, 2010 on 1:06 am
I’m seconding (or thirding, or whatever) what other people said about the breach of doctor/patient confidentiality. He should NOT have discussed it with your husband.
Yes, in this case TH was calling to support you, but the doctor DIDN’T KNOW THAT. What if he was abusive? What if you wanted birth control because you thought your husband would hurt you or your unborn child?
There is a reason why the doctor is not supposed to discuss your care with third parties. This person should NOT be treating patients.
Being a close-minded, smug jerk might not be against HIPAA, but revealing the patient’s information sure is.
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June 16th, 2010 on 1:13 am
What a rotten thing for him to do. I hope you can find someone that is able to help even if they don’t support your choices.
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June 16th, 2010 on 2:51 am
Jenna, I am so mad for you after reading this post! I’ve never had an OB act so rudely toward me, but one came close. Their demeanor & tone completely changes once you veer from the only childbirth path they know. Anyway, I love Planned Parenthood. Went there after an OB charged me $1500 for a well visit. They were courteous, professional, efficient, & cheap. Also just today, I had a consultation with a GP in Coppell (very close to where we live) Dr. Nina Cahan. She was on the birth center’s referral list, and I really liked her. Sorry again, I’m just like you when it comes to authority and standing up for myself. Good luck!
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June 16th, 2010 on 3:55 am
Ugh. Honestly – I don’t understand why he couldn’t just let you finish, and then explain his legally required questions, so that you could move on and get down to the REAL business of why you were there. You’re a mum with a newborn – surely that warrants a bit of understanding on his part. It’s not easy getting yourself newly registered AND making a special trip to the OBGYN. Regardless of who was right and who was wrong, I think a little bit of compassion goes a long way.
In Australia, we go to a regular GP for birth control & paps. I wouldn’t have the slightest idea how to go about it any other way!
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June 16th, 2010 on 5:13 am
This is so sad.
I’m in the UK and women here have a right to home births – and if they choose to do so, will have as much NHS midwife support and access to an NHS Ob.Gynae Dr as any one with a planned hospital birth.
This is outrageous behaviour that would make headline news in the UK. I really feel for you – you have been treated appalingly. I don’t know how the healthcare system works in the States but can you not report this to a higher authority?
I hope this all gets resolved very soon and that you get your birth control soon also.
You have a right to home-birth and to be supported with this by all the medical professionals. You also have a right not to be discriminated against because you opted for home birth. Can you seek some free legal advice at all?
Much love,
Annabel xXx
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June 16th, 2010 on 6:50 am
It’s outrageous that a doctor walked out on you like that. And I’m not sure about the ‘pill dispenser’ issue… if I go to my GP to get a new prescription for birth control, that’s about as involved as it gets, because that’s all I need. He checks my blood pressure and asks a few questions and I get my prescription. If he didn’t give me my presecription, it would be because he thought it a medically unsound idea. Not because he didn’t feel like it, or didn’t like me. People go see their doctor to get a prescription all the time. It’s not offensive to ask for a prescription. And you’re not ‘using’ the doctor, you need his or her expertise to decide if the medication is appropriate for you, and then to write the prescription. I don’t see that as offensive. Jenna, good on you for taking back the power in this situation and leaving!
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June 16th, 2010 on 7:03 am
This is hard I know but this isn’t about giggling in response to mds or friendly receptionists, or or even being treated well. Jeanna, this is time for some tough love. You need to grow up a little here. now and fast. you chose a home birth . you should have set things up with your mid wife for your post partum check ups. BEFORE the birth. She should have put you in touch with an md for this important post partum case which is KEY for your well being and obviously for your lovely new babe . When I ready your post birth posts I was a little scared for you- incontinence, bleeding, infections. Not the usual. you clearly had an infection and needed to see an ob/gyn asap. I am not faulting your homebirth choice- I had one too, but about YOUR health and the health of your baby- not who is right or wrong. So, I respectfully suggest you continue to find an md who can talk to. You are young and healthy but have had a birth with some issues so it is their duty to do a full write up to do their jobs properly. No good doc will just write a scrip for birth control- they need to do a full work up (to cover them and to fully care for you). So don’t give up on the establishment medical system. Don’t care a little girl “I was treated badly and Im gonna sult. Write a calm letter to that offce and move on. You need to take care of yourself here.
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lucy Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 1:51 pm
Carol, I don’t know if you are right or not about Jenna having complications, but I certainly agree that it’s a shame and a real problem that she didn’t have seamless medical care. Your comment was intriguing. I have been through some OB-GYN drama of my own and it didn’t feel good at the time, but it also helped me to grow up a little and take more responsibility for my actions, I think.
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June 16th, 2010 on 7:04 am
So sorry you’re having such a hard time finding a good dr! I live in SC, and I thought I would have the same problems being in the conservative south. I hated the first and only OB I saw down here about 4 years ago (he talked about the previous evening’s American Idol and sang while doing my exam. And I don’t watch TV.) So I had been seeing a nearby family practitioner instead. However after the experience I had when I went to confirm my pregnancy (a waste of time anyway, but that’s what the books tell you to do) I will not be going back to see her, although she was fairly open minded about my going to a birth center. I go to La Leche League, and I asked there who everyone recommended as a pediatrician. Everyone has glowing recommendations of this Dr I am going to go see tomorrow (here, at 36 weeks, a certified dr has to clear you for out of hospital birth) and I have a really good feeling about him. He is a general practitioner but also delivers low risk babies so I guess he is also an OB. Anyhow, maybe find a group of like minded Mama’s (like minded in the realm of childbirth and parenting, not necessarily religion) and ask their recommendation, I know you aren’t breastfeeding but perhaps you could get in touch with the local LLL leader and ask for a doc recommendation. Or see if there is an attachment parenting group or other such group locally. Your midwife probably knows about any local groups.
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June 16th, 2010 on 8:23 am
I have no desire to have a home birth at all, but I am STUNNED and DISGUSTED by the way you were treated! I personally think home births are too risky for my OCD, Type A personality but you did a WONDERFUL job and what was RIGHT for you. I think you did a great job standing up for yourself and I would write a letter to the BBB or any of those grade a dr sites!
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June 16th, 2010 on 8:33 am
OOOOOHHHHH…. this makes me furious!!!! I am so sorry this happened to you. Every woman I know, including myself, has been in the position of having to beg and plead for an appointment to get BCP’s before the last pack runs out. I can’t imagine having to deal with a dick-head doctor too. I have to believe it wouldn’t be so hard to get a simple prescription for pills if men where the ones taking them…
That said, I agree with some of the above posters who suggested that you “screen” future providers by asking their front desk staff how they feel about home birth BEFORE scheduling an appointment. I also highly recommend going to Planned Parenthood. I read the anti-PP comments above, but I think it might actually be a good exercise for you to challenge your own judgments of the people who work or visit PP, in the same way that you felt judged at the OB/GYN.
Oooh… still boiling here!
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June 16th, 2010 on 9:06 am
So many good comments here. I just want to encourage you to keep looking. It will take time to find the right doctor (just like it took time to find the right midwife) but you’ll find him or her eventually! And it might well be worth the effort to work on developing a medical relationship right away in Chicago so that you don’t have to deal with crazy stressful situations at a point when you *really* need to have things already taken care of.
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June 16th, 2010 on 9:14 am
Wow.. I can’t believe he walked out on you! That’s outrageous. Sorry you’ve been having bad luck with the doctors.
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June 16th, 2010 on 9:16 am
This situation is truly sad. I am so sorry to hear that you have now had two bad experiences in a row which have surely done nothing to increase your trust in the conventional approaches to women’s health and postpartum care.
The way the doctor communicated with you yesterday was a massive FAIL on his part and completely unprofessional. He would have been much better off to clearly communicate WHY he needed the answers that he did, and to do so in a way that reassured you that he wasn’t there to judge your choice of a home birth.
Having said that, I do have to say that, while he handled the situation very poorly, his refusal to provide you with the prescription was warranted.
Here’s the thing: OBGYNs have the highest rate of malpractice law suits of any specialty in the country. So, as much as it sucks that while they are treating you they are thinking of law suits, it’s unfortunately part of the job for them. So, to provide a patient with a prescription for bc without getting a full patient history and having the patient answer the required questions could open them up to serious liability if something were to happen (e.g. you got a blood clot as a result of the bc) and you were to subsequently sue him (not to at all imply that you are overly litigious, but he doesn’t know that). He would be held liable for not asking you the questions that needed to be asked.
I think, as I said above, that he handled the situation very poorly and should have done a better job of explaining himself and trying to better handle his defensive demeanour. I do think though, that if you go to another OBGYN appointment you should be open to answering the necessary questions. I totally agree that you have the right not to be lectured, but the doctor also has the right to have all the information about your medical history before he or she treats you or takes out his/her prescription pad.
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June 16th, 2010 on 9:21 am
Someone might have suggested this, but you might want to consider seeing a DO general practitioner rather than a MD. From my understanding after working at an osteopathic med school and having one as my PCP for a few years, they are a little more holistic in their approach to medicine. Accordingly, they might not be as shocked or put off by your birth story.
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June 16th, 2010 on 9:30 am
Jenna, I cannot imagine your frustrations! You certainly have every right – no doctor should ever walk out on a patient. He needed to change his attitude to ask the questions required – not judge you every step of the way. I’m so sorry you had to deal with that – thank goodness T1 was a good therapist for you
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June 16th, 2010 on 10:11 am
UG! What an aweful experience! I was going to an OB for the first half of my pregnancy and when I finally got the courage to speak up and ask questions about what he will and will not do in regards to my birth experience, I left feeling like an idiot. He was so rude and unprofessional the entire time I was asking him questions. I have since switched care to a midwife and will have a homebirth.
Thanks for posting this, I hope that others will see how important it is to stand up for the care they deserve. I used to be that passive patient…..the one who would smile and nod and do everything I was asked. Not anymore.
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June 16th, 2010 on 10:21 am
I think this situation was handled poorly on both sides.
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June 16th, 2010 on 10:24 am
It sounds like my experience with an ophtalmologist back in France who refused to see me and my brother when I told him that we were currently seeing an optometrist. He just pointed at the door.
Very rude.
I’m guessing maybe (not trying to give him excuses but) that the Dr felt attacked when you told him you didn’t want a lecture, took it personaly and didn’t realize who you were. Of course I don’t know exactly how you worded things and how he did. But anyhow it doesn’t change the fact that he left the room.
I think when you call for appointments you should ask the secretary the view of the Dr on Midwife assisted home birth before you make the appointment.
Good luck with it, and you regular doctor should be able to prescribe your birth control by the way.
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June 16th, 2010 on 10:32 am
I haven’t read all the comments, but I wanted to say that the Planned Parenthood is probably a good idea. It can be tough to go there. Really long waits and it’s depressing seeing all the young girls there for birth control.
But in my experience they give you what you want without asking a lot of questions.
You also have to watch out for protesters there. There are times when you have to fight your way through people screaming at you that you’re a baby killer even though you’ve never had an abortion and you’re not there for one.
You’ll also probably have to press a door buzzer to be let in and you can’t hold the door for anyone else. There are a lot of safety concerns for the staff there.
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Sophia Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 11:33 am
That’s what makes me really sad. I’m all for protesting for what you believe in, but there are common sense lines for me.
As someone who has participated in many a protest- and has held signs, and chanted/yelled- my personal rule is that I don’t protest unless the object of my protest is clear and I know for sure I am protesting, directly, against something I disagree with. Because of the variety of factors involved in the diversity of clientele of PP and their reasons for visiting, I wouldn’t be comfortable staging a pro-life protest and randomly yelling at every single person that went in, because 97% of those people aren’t even there for an abortion
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Kat Speyer Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 2:40 pm
Really? Maybe it’s where I live (between Eugene, OR and Seattle, WA) but I’ve never seen a single protester at a PP clinic.
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Sophia Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 3:45 pm
They were ALWAYS protesting in front of the PP right down the street from my house. It was with a Catholic pro-life organization, and they were somewhat respectful- there was no yelling- but the signs were often very, very graphic and they did constantly heckle to get the attention of women going in. I spoke with three different groups of people on three different occasions, they all gave me heavily biased pamphlets stating that PP existed solely to kill millions of innocents each year, and that while they say their goal is broad access to women’s health, that’s not their “real” agenda. When I would mention the percentages of services performed- as I commented above, abortions account for approximately 3% of all services- they would tell me I had been brainwashed and was mistaken. Almost all of them sincerely believed that PP was basically an abortion clinic that also, sometimes, on the side maybe, gave well women exams, birth control, and general sexual health screenings.
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Sophia Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 9:07 pm
I feel the need to clarify that I didn’t specify “Catholic” to specifically disparage Catholic people. It’s just that the Catholic charities are the only ones I’ve ever run in to that spearhead all of the pro-life protests I’ve personally seen.
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Kristin ~ Bien Living Design Reply:
June 17th, 2010 at 10:01 am
Yep – I always see protesters outside of the one in Chicago as well. It can be a little scary at times, it just depends on the day!
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Sara Davidson Reply:
June 17th, 2010 at 12:43 pm
Kat, we’ve got a protester at our local PP now. Just this one old fellow, every morning, stands out there with his signs about baby killing. He never hassles any one, though, so I actually don’t mind him too much.
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June 16th, 2010 on 10:48 am
So I told Forrest this story, he replied, “they don’t train doctors to act like that. That’s unkind and very unprofessional.” And then he said, “she should come to the homeless clinic (where he works every tues), we’ll give her birth control and anything else she wants.”
Thinking about this has made me so sad. I’m sure there are OBs that are okay with women’s choices. There has to be, right?
I don’t know what your next step is, but you should go to the midwives I went to (did I say that in my last comment? I think so.)
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June 16th, 2010 on 11:00 am
When I was a poor college student I used Planned Parenthood for my paps and birth control. They were great and treated me well and were affordable on my budget. I’d say that is a great option.
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June 16th, 2010 on 11:32 am
I am so sorry you had to go through this again. I think it’s ridiculous how badly you have been treated by the past to OB’s, and I can’t imagine how frustrated you must feel. I really hope that next time around you get a very kind and understanding doctor. The only advice I have is to maybe add some rainbow sprinkles to that bowl of ice cream. That usually helps me feel better!
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June 16th, 2010 on 11:56 am
Wow. I’m so sorry you had to go through this, and I applaude you for standing up for yourself. I can imagine how upsetting it was, I’m mad just by reading it. Have you thought about asking your midwife for a recommendation? I know that a lot of midwives work with OB’s that support natural birth/home birth, etc.
I also think you should consider reporting him to the board. He clearly has no ethics.
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Austyn Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 12:41 pm
I am sorry you had such a negative experience. He should have handled the situation differently, and it seems you wish that you had also. Perhaps he would change his response if he had that time traveling machine as well.
As far as the “pill dispenser” thing goes, think of it this way: You take great pride in your dedication and passion to photography. You’ve put time and effort into refining your skills to be the best photographer you think you can be. You set prices and standards for your business, and you have certain expectations for your clients. Would you want to work for someone who said, “Just stand there and snap some photos. I don’t want any of that extra stuff, and I have my own ideas about how I want to do things. I don’t want to hear what you have to say about this situation or my choices, even if you’re only trying to offer a service that you think I’d be most satisfied with.” My guess is that you would think that client is probably not a very good fit for Jenna Cole, and you might even feel a lack of respect for your expertise. Now try to imagine how you would feel if you dedicated over a decade of your life just to learning the skills that can save the lives of mother and child.
Should he have handled it differently? Absolutely. Was he responding perhaps to a perceived lack of appreciation of his profession on your part? It’s something worth considering, I think. I try to remember in all confrontation: Everything is perceived. Stress is perceived. Sometimes what matters most is not how you meant your actions, but how they came across to another. We all learn from experience, and it’s clear you’ve learned a lot from this one. I hope your next medical encounter goes more smoothly for you. Best of luck!
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Barb Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 12:51 pm
Great analogy, Austyn. There are many individuals here that are very well spoken. I wish I could be as eloquent with my thoughts; I agree with you.
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Megan Reply:
June 16th, 2010 at 1:12 pm
Perfectly said.
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June 16th, 2010 on 2:03 pm
umm wow that was sourly and very unprofessionally handled by that Dr.
best of luck to you and hope you find a solution VERY quickly.
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June 16th, 2010 on 2:11 pm
Honey, I see a KICK-ASS lady OBGYN in Coppell. I also got an appointment super fast the last time I went. Email me if you’d like her name, and I can tell you more about my experience.
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June 16th, 2010 on 2:28 pm
If you’re worried about giving business to Planned Parenthood, the one in Addison advocates adoption.
I am so sorry you’ve had such horrible experiences.
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June 16th, 2010 on 3:27 pm
Jenna, I’m going to be frank. I love your blog and all your strong, unapologetic opinions, but this post really rubbed me the wrong way. It’s just so one-sided. Sure, you both could have handled the situation a lot better. But I think you are completely lacking the ability to view this scenario from anyone’s perspective but your own.
Doctors spend their youth slaving away in post-secondary school (about 15 years worth of post-secondary education), rack up hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, and miss out on quality time with their family, friends, spouse, and children due to impossibly demanding residency programs. Only to be greeted with med mal insurance premiums costing hundreds of thousands of dollars per year when they enter into practice (especially for OBs–the premiums are mind-boggling). Add to that, the stresses of being an owner/partner in a business, and they have a lot on thier plates. If a cranky, seemingly high-risk new patient waltzes in their office basically saying, “cut the crap, just give me my pills,” I don’t really blame a doctor for not wanting to deal with him/her. The little copay he gets from that patient is not going to be worth it in the long run, especially if he thinks the patient is both high-risk and irreverant. Yes, he should have handled the situation better, but you are making this out to be some kind of a civil rights issue when it’s not. You were rude, he was rude. He was the professional in the siutation, so it was on him to take the high road, which he did not. But he didn’t HAVE to treat you, especially if he was uncomfortable with your practices/attitude (or some combination thereof). I disagree with outing him, because I think this was a personal disagreement between the two of you. No fraud, illegal discrimination, or other unconscionable wrong took place. This forum is very public, you have a huge readership, and I am dissapointed that you would publish his name.
Ok, vent over. This is the kind of straightforward comment I would give to my sister or best friend, so I hope you don’t feel attacked. But I am interested in something another commenter asked about. You did tons of research and planning and came up with what seemed like it was a great pregnancy/birth plan to fit your needs. Did you plan for after care? Obviously you didn’t have an OBGYN, but did you have some other plan that feel through?
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June 16th, 2010 on 3:59 pm
Wow. Just wow. I am so sorry that you were treated in such an unprofessional manner. There is really no excuse for treating someone like that.
I live in Dallas and have a couple friends that are members of the DFW Area Moms forum. I don’t know if you have heard of DW Area Moms. I know they have forums about natural births and midwives/ doulas. You might search their boards and see if you can find some recs for doctors. They also have great information about cloth diapering and breastfeeding.
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June 16th, 2010 on 4:04 pm
Take this in the spirit that it is intended….this post sounds the least like you (or at the least the mature woman I have come to know through your blog) that I have read so far.
Usually you are pretty rational and do your research, think about issues from all sides but here, you are coming off as a bit immature. I don’t think the doctors behavior (e.g. walking out of the room) was appropriate, but yours wasn’t either. You were going there as a new patient — the doctor was prepared to meet, talk to, and examine a new patient — that requires taking an accurate medical history….any doctor would need to do the same.
There is NO doctor that I know personally or have worked with, who would blindly write a prescription for a new patient without doing an exam and a taking a thorough medical history. I’m sure some people are thinking “oh it’s no big deal, it’s just birth control and a pap smear” but I don’t think you’d want to be treated by a doctor who thinks prescribing medication of any kind is “no big deal”.
I think you had a terrible experience the first time around with the other OB/GYN and so you were poised to experience another awful condescending doctor, but in my opinion this doctor didn’t do anything terrible — it was rude to walk out the way he did, but I imagine he thought you were being pretty rude by saying you didn’t want to hear what he had to say and were just there to get a prescription.
Who knows…maybe he wasn’t being derisive by stating “You didn’t see an OB your entire pregnancy?” maybe he was just really shocked and surprised…but you “anticipated” what his next response was going to be and cut him off and it went downhill from there.
Again, I’m not saying he behaved appropriately by ending the appointment the way he did, but I seriously ask you to think about this from another perspective.
Is storming out of the office, making a scene in the waiting room, and then posting links to this mans practice and publicly sharing his name a mature way to handle this?
I am sorry that you got so upset, and I am sorry that the appointment didn’t go the way you wanted it to and that you couldn’t get the exam and prescription you need and want from this man.
I do believe that if you think this over a bit, you will recognize the role that you played in this — both in his office and by writing this post and “outing” him as an insensitive doctor. I think the other suggestions about getting birth control from your internist is a good one (some of them can even do pap smears in their office if you ask) or looking into planned parenthood.
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June 16th, 2010 on 4:24 pm
I just want to say there have been some great comments on both sides beyond the ‘poor you that sucks’ theme that I hope will help you heal from that experience, perhaps see it in a slightly different light and find a health care provider that will give you your pills but also give the more in depth care you need. Great comments today!
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June 16th, 2010 on 6:17 pm
I’m so sorry you had to go through that! Let me know if you’re ever going to be in DC and I’ll try and get you an appointment with my aunt (a very prominent gynecologist who recently retired from OB). A cousin of mine had a home birth and it kinda shocked her at first (especially since my cousin was a premed, but then again maybe that’s why shoe chose to give birth at home), but now she gets it and is always happy to hear that another healthy baby has made it’s way into the world with no complications.
Also, regarding Planned Parenthood, I don’t think you even need an exam for pills, just to see the Dr. for a consultation. Personally, I’m a fan of patronizing the city/county/state women’s clinic if they’ll accept your insurance. That gives them some money to help balance out the services they provide to uninsured women.
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June 16th, 2010 on 7:44 pm
No one likes having an awful experience at the doctor. Sometimes even getting it together to go to the doctor is difficult enough. I know you’ve expressed this before and I completely agree.
I don’t think your doctor handled the situation at all. I wonder, though, if you were both at odds because you view healthcare differently. From comments above, Jenna, you’ve asked why doctors aren’t just pill pushers since that’s what you (the consumer) want. It’s true that medicine has turned into a consumer industry, just like education, which wasn’t always one. My mom’s an OBGYN and the shift in medicine from a doctor/patient relationship to a provider/consumer relationship is something that she doesn’t like. She didn’t go into medicine to make money but because she thinks women need good healthcare providers. She takes pride from the relationships she has developed with patients, and at this point in her life, she’s delivering babies of babies she has delivered. She has patients whose mothers were her patients who have passed on and who come to see her because of the connection she had to their mothers.
I know that you’re moving soon so you weren’t ever planning to see this doctor again, but maybe he thought you were coming to establish yourself as a patient, to be another one of relationships in his practice. If the pleasure he derives from his work is from those relationships, then he probably was affronted by the consumer demand. Granted, he could have handled the situation with more aplomb, and he should have.
If you get your next fun female healthcare from university services, then you won’t necessarily have to worry about developing a relationship with a healthcare provider, but it’s not the worst thing in the world. If you have one, that’ll be the person who’ll just give you the pills no questions asked when you’re desperate.
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June 16th, 2010 on 10:52 pm
Just one more comment. Jenna, any physician (and probably any PROVIDER in general, including nurses, techs, midwives and the gamut) are going to gasp when you tell them there was a true knot in T1′s umbilical cord. You didn’t even get to that part of the discussion with this guy, but some day you will. I want you to be prepared for that.
I am intensely grateful that your home-birth went well, but it very well could have gone a different way. That knot could have caused IUGR, fetal loss, malformation, or still birth. It didn’t, and I think all who care about you feel so lucky for it.
I think it’s really important that you make clear to your providers in the future that you are comfortable with a certain degree of risk and that you accept the responsibility for outcomes based on your decisions. This will put anyone who takes care of you in the future in much more comfortable context.
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Just a girl Reply:
June 17th, 2010 at 12:52 pm
Correct me if I’m wrong — but most knots can’t be detected in utero anyway and babies die from knotted cords inside of hospitals too. Midwives use monitoring to tell if a baby is in distress and will transfer the Mom to a hospital. T1 was basically at the same risk of cord injury at home vs. in the hospital.
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June 16th, 2010 on 11:17 pm
Jenna,
As an avid homebirth supporter I really feel for your situation and I just wondered if you’ve ever heard of this website:
http://myobsaidwhat.com/
It’s full of women, mostly homebirthers who’ve been treated poorly by OB’s and nurses, and I bet it would make you feel better, misery loves company and all =)
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Jenna Reply:
June 17th, 2010 at 9:11 am
I submitted there already actually
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June 17th, 2010 on 12:54 am
I agree with the earlier post that commented about how differently the dr would describe his expearience with you on his blog. I was incredibly upset to see you post the name and practice of the dr in your post. There is no way for any of us to know what actually happened between you and the doctor. None of us were actually in the room with the two of you. I ask every single one of us to remember that there are two sides to every story, and every person is going to tell their side to make their actions appear correct.
I am a patient of the doctor that is being so badly bashed. I have been his patient for many years, he has delivered my children and many of my friends and family see him based on my recommendation. He is a wonderful doctor, he is very caring, very friendly and he takes the extra time with you if you need it. I have sat in his office with him many of times after an exam, and he has taken more time to answer my questions and research the answers, if need be, then any other doctor I have been to.
I am sorry that YOUR expearience with him didn’t turn out like you expected, however, I don’t think it is right for you bash him based off of (from what I can tell) a few minutes spent with him. Obviously, None of us know how you approached the subject or how he approached the subject, if you reacted to HIS actions or if he reacted to YOUR’s.
I stand by my recommendation of Dr. Hoffman, and hope that people will take the blog post from your for what it is worth. It is YOUR version of what happened, based off of deep rooted emotions.
God Bless.
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Charmaine Reply:
June 17th, 2010 at 1:12 pm
I don’t think Jenna’s rant about the doctor is any different than a negative post on a review site like Yelp. There are two sides to every story and this is Jenna’s, on Jenna’s personal site. She has every right to say how she feels about the doctor and her experience with him, just as you have every right to claim he is an excellent provider. However, to say that she was wrong in posting about her experience (“don’t think it is right for you to bash him based off of…a few minutes spent with him”) is not your place. I looked into Yelp’s policies around negative reviews and even if Jenna had posted her rant on a more public forum, it would not be removed on any of the grounds they lay forth. She had a poor experience with this doctor (I’m sorry, but you don’t spend additional time with someone who is making you miserable “just to make sure” they’re as bad as you thought) and she has every right to talk about it. I think you could do a lot of good if you were to offer to write a testimonial or review for Dr. Hoffman, should his business be negatively impacted by Jenna’s remarks. Cheers!
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Katherine (a.k.a. Sparkles) Reply:
June 17th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
Well you know… this is Mena’s and Happy Mother’s opinion too. And they are basing their viewpoint off of several longer interactions they had with the physician than Jenna had.
And you’re right Charmaine. …”you don’t spend additional time with someone who is making you miserable “just to make sure” they’re as bad as you thought” But that isn’t what TW did… it’s what the doctor did to Jenna. She asked him to stay- and he obviously felt the provider/client interaction wasn’t going to be beneficial for either of them.
Frankly- people who complain about someone or something (i.e. Dooce’s maytag issue) will post something after trying to rectify the situation repeatedly without positive results or by asking other’s if they have had a similar situation with ‘so-&-so’. But TW didn’t have repeated issues with this particular person. It’s almost as if because of the previous OB/Gyn interaction she had, this one just further added to her disdain to OB’s anticipated reaction to her home birth choice- and this physician got his name placed publicly out there whereas the previous one didn’t.
I think when I read the physicians name and the group I was somewhat surprised too because I tend to sway towards havng the impression that TW is more eloquent & forgiving about issues she has had to deal with in the past. We all know how she has strong feelings towards pregnancy/birthing/empowering oneself. But this personal blog entry was a therapuetic vent fest. I would never have thought she would publicly ‘hang’ someone out to dry for a brief interaction. It seems somewhat catty- and not at all TW’s style from what I gather… My mom always told me never send an email in anger- write it out then sit on it and revisit the situation/later.
Maybe that would have helped change her tone- because honestly the part where she writes in her blog entry “Oh sure, because saying that you don’t want to be told you are a stupid idiot for choosing to birth at home and not use an OBGYN for your pregnancy is EXACTLY the same as refusing to cooperate with state mandated questions. Did his little form have on it somewhere: Be sure to treat patients like you know everything and they know nothing.” I am SURE he would never imply or think or say he thinks she is a stupid idiot and that she knows nothing. I think that particular part struck a sensitive cord in me because I knew then TW was p*ssed beyond reasonable doubt- and fueled up to fight. But it’s not a healthy way of thinking about the situation either, even if it is what you feel inside. Because it leads you to blindly swing every which way- and post someone’s name publicly where they can’t defend themselves or their version of the interaction. On yelp- businesses get the opportunity to make a statement saying how they tried to rectified an issue but health care provider’s can’t.
But that was her choice to do so- as it is Happy Mother & Mena’s choice to verbalize their discomfort in seeing someone they respect and have a relationship with be publicly scrutinized when they haven’t had that issue themselves. It’s only natural to want to verbalize how they had good past experiences even if TW did not.
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Charmaine Reply:
June 17th, 2010 at 2:12 pm
Sorry I don’t really have the time or interest to read into your response, nor dig any deeper into Jenna’s original post… people are obviously bent out of shape about this and there’s no need for me to continue participating in this discussion. I’m simply empathizing with Jenna and what I feel is her right to vent about her issues in an unadulterated fashion. Obviously, you and others feel differently. I’m just glad that I’m not held to this degree of scrutiny.
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Happy Mother Reply:
June 17th, 2010 at 2:23 pm
If (as I agree) perception is reality, Jenna did have a no good very bad day…Yes, she does have the “right” to post her feelings. However, she, in my humble opinion, does nor have the right to NAME and BASH a man who she spent so few minutes with. With Jenna’s personal blog, she reaches many people with the words that she choces to use. Her rant was made in anger, and nothing good happens when you act out in anger. Dr. Hoffman and her might have had a misunderstanding, one that should be settled in private beofre Jenna takes her rant to the masses. She becomes respnsible for her words and by linking their business to per blo0g, she is also hurting the other doctors who work for the practice (one that saved my sons from becoming a miscarriage statistic. So yes, this is person for me and Jenna (who I believe is intelligent and articulate) needs to give HIM the benefit of doubt before she slanders his good name.
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Happy Mother Reply:
June 17th, 2010 at 2:26 pm
P.S. sorry for the typos
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TH Reply:
June 17th, 2010 at 9:22 pm
I think that Jenna not being able to share her bad experience with her doctor and name names is pretty ridiculous for three reasons.
First, if you never share negative experiences you are not only giving service providers an incentive to be mediocre, but you are also being unfair to all the people who have a bad experience because you never spoke up.
Second, as to review accuracy, are you guys assuming that the average reader here has a pretty low IQ? Because anyone with any sense is going to take Jenna’s biases into consideration when reading this review. Just like you did, they will ask themselves if she was argumentative, etc, etc. Even if you just stumble on this post, you can tell she’s ticked off – it’s crystal clear – and you will take that into account. From my perspective, I’m not sure exactly what happened, but it’s hard to misrepresent a doctor walking out on you even though you explicitly ask him to stay and examine you.
And third, and perhaps most important, Dr. Hoffman stands to benefit from this review. Do you think he wants any more home birthers at his practice? Or people who are going to refuse lectures? Based on the walk-out, I can bet you he’d rather never see them, and this review helps decrease his chances of future experiences like this. You could argue that Tuscan OBGYN may want the home birthers, but if they do, then they need to have a chat w/ Hoffman, which again this review helps facilitate.
I really don’t get why people are getting worked up over this post. If you have a positive review for this doctor, you should absolutely write about it and post it on sites that rank doctors. But think about how ridiculous it would be to at the same time try to silence all the people who have bad experiences. Here’s why it’s ridiculous: if everyone with a positive experience tried to shut up people w/ bad experiences, every doctor, service provider, eBay seller, and Amazon item would get a 5 star rating, with no way to tell them apart from each other. And I don’t think anyone wants that.
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Katherine (a.k.a. Sparkles) Reply:
June 18th, 2010 at 12:30 am
Hi TH. I don’t think anyone is trying to silence TW or saying she SHOULDN’T share her bad experience. It was healthy for her to do so- but I stress when one is angry and calling specific people out by name be aware sometimes the adrenaline rush from anger can make a person destructive rather than constructive to conflict resolution.
I think what Mena and Happy Mother were verbalizing more so that this blog isn’t a forum or avenue in which the physician can share his perspective, but it is natural they would want to chime in they had good experiences and were sorry she didn’t. (I just piped in the middle of this strand because I wanted to share that I too was surprised TW chose to say his name publicly. That doesn’t mean I think she was wrong to do so- again I was surprised. I thought that was bold… and I thought it was fueled by emotion)
To clarify my thoughts/perspective on this one element (outing the doctors name) I guess what I am thinking is why didn’t TW just write physicians initials and take the high road and not place his name here- and those who are home birther’s (who read this blog) and live in the service area where this physician practices, TW could have simply said “if you want to know who he is email me”? Wouldn’t that have accomplished the same thing and come across a bit more tactfully? How would TW feel if she had a client who had a brief negative interaction with TW’s services decided to name her publicly and go to various sites rating TW’s business practice or wrote to her current customers how horrible an experience they had? At least TW would have the opportunity to write a response- she wouldn’t feel helpless that she couldn’t write a rebuttal because her hands are tied legally by HIPPA.
I can’t speak for the other people who have replied but I can speak for myself. I don’t think this blog post is something people got worked up on. Maybe within this strand of replies re: naming the physician led to a discussion. But trust me, I did say it before and I’ll say it again- obviously this physician did not handle the situation optimally.
As an aside and off topic. I had a friend who worked for a consulting group who specifically worked to write bad reviews about their competitors on places like yelp/amazon/ebay- and vice-versa would try to play up and write good reviews on their own products! So whenever I read any review I always wind up thinking about how my friend wrote mock reviews and I wind up never knowing if what I am reading is real or fabricated!!! same thing with my other friend. She works for a hotel and always tries to beef up her hotel’s by writing positive mock reviews on travelocity. They ruined all reviews for me. Argh.
(
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June 17th, 2010 on 12:28 pm
Jenna,
I am sorry that you had what you considered to be a bad experience, but I have to be honest and say that I think that you went into that appointment with a combative attitude due to your last experience. I am a mother of twins who went to Tuscan OBGYN and my twins would not be here without the wonderful doctors who work at Tuscan. They literally saved me from having a double miscarriage through very careful monitoring of my cervix (which was thinning half way through my pregnancy). Jenna, without the medical intervention that I had at Tuscan, I would not have my two angels. I LOVE that office and you have not only linked your blog to their website but named a specific doctor. When you do that you take responsibility for the fallout that happens to their good name. Do you think that the other Dr.’s who practice there can not be hurt by your remarks? You are taking their livelihood in your hands. I think that you are a smart, wonderful person and I love reading your blogs, but I had to say something because I think that you need to realize that your rant has a far reaching effect.
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TH Reply:
June 17th, 2010 at 9:29 pm
HM, I know you really mean what you say, but I’m going to repeat my comment above and say that to avoid negative reviews would be bad practice for everyone. If you ever write a negative review about anything, doctor, car mechanic, a radio bought on Amazon, you may be affecting the livelihoods of the people who make the good or service. But if you don’t speak up, the good/service providers won’t be rewarded, and the bad ones won’t have an incentive to change.
That’s why you should tell people of your experience and Jenna should tell people of hers, because if someone has a difficult pregnancy with a high risk of miscarriage, they will come to Tuscan, but if they had a home birth and feel passionate about it, they will be sure to avoid it, and for the benefit of everyone. Do you think Dr. Hoffman wants more Jenna’s to come to him? Based on the walk-out, I highly doubt it. So in essence this review helps him avoid negative experiences just as it helps the readers of That Wife.
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Happy Mother Reply:
June 17th, 2010 at 10:22 pm
I would agree with that point if it was true that Dr. Hoffman does not want to see home birth mothers, but this is simply not the case. I know the doctor (and have had longer experiences with him than 10 minutes). Can you think of a time in your life when a situation was completely taken out of context? You say something and it is taken the wrong way? Would you want someone to defend you when you feel like you are being slammed? I would want someone to stand up for me and say that, no, I am not a rude person (as Dr. Hoffman, I assure you IS NOT). I love Jenna and her opinions but you should not slam a medical professional after a short meeting. Jenna said that a “thinking woman” should not see him. That is both insulting and wrong (but I realize that Jenna was upset so I choose to overlook that). I would choose to listen to someone with a background with this Dr. rather than someone who had a glimpse. With bad experiences I DO feel that omeone has the right to object to the way something was managed, but I also feel that the attack against him was overkill.
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June 17th, 2010 on 8:51 pm
I’ve never commented before, but felt I really wanted to on this topic. I agree with Katherine that there might be too much defensiveness in this situation. You can stand up for yourself without getting tempers flaring.
I also wanted to add that this post had some stark insinuations that women who chose a different path than you did are not healthcare educated and are not willing to stand for what they want/need.
There are going to be bad doctors everywhere. I don’t think your choices make these doctors leery of you. It might just be your approach to the discussion.
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June 17th, 2010 on 9:16 pm
PUH-LEASE PEOPLE… this is her blog! These are HER opinions, HER thoughts, HER ramblings. She made it to express HERSELF. She can say whatever she so pleases. Get over it. He’s not going to lose his license ’cause Jenna doesn’t like him. IT’S OKAY… he’ll be okay.
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Happy Mother Reply:
June 17th, 2010 at 10:14 pm
You are being naive to think that someone who has a blog that is as popular as Jenna’s (and is terrific in my book) will not reach alot of people. What I am saying is that words DO matter and should not be taken lightly.
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Janie Reply:
June 17th, 2010 at 10:27 pm
I don’t care to argue with anyone. I am not naive. I understand she’s popular, but at the end of the day this is a BLOG – a collection of her thoughts, feelings, actions, stories, etc. She should be free to say whatever she pleases on her own blog. Don’t read it if her thoughts and opinions upset you.
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June 18th, 2010 on 1:55 am
on that note, this is a blog that she has decided to make public and allow comments, and I commented how I felt about it. I am not going back and telling each of you that you are wrong for the way you are thinking and I don’t expect anyone to tell me that I am wrong. Based off of my experience with Dr.Hoffman, he is an excellent and very caring doctor. I still stand by my opinion that she should not have linked her website to their’s and she should not have named names.
I also stand by my opinion (one that was formed over many years of patient/doctor interaction) that if there was a way for all of us to see what actually happened, he wouldn’t look like as bad in the situation.
This is just my humble opinion, and while I know a few of you will fire off some kind of defensive reply, please know I will not be reading them because I am not coming back to read something that has gotten so out of control.
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June 18th, 2010 on 1:23 pm
TH, I’d have to respectfully disagree with you and the analogy to Amazon and Ebay. Doctors are not in a position to respond with their side of the story of due to HIPPA. They are not at liberty to discuss in an open forum what happened at a patient’s appointment. And unlike Ebay and Amazon sellers, doctors are bound by very strict professional organizations who have the power to censor and revoke licenses for misconduct, so there are definitely mechanisms to punish them for bad behavior.
That being said, of course TW has the right to discuss whatever she likes on this blog. And if she shares the doctor’s information, she’s at liberty to do so. And of course the doctor and his practice will be okay. Jenna has a large readership, but I would guess that it isn’t heavily localized to Irving. I think the decision to “out” him and the nature post in general was a turn off to some readers (admittedly, a minority), who felt that it was a litte out of character for TW (from what they know of her on this blog).
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June 18th, 2010 on 1:44 pm
sorry to be the odd one out here, but i do read your blog quite often, and i think you were out of line here. tone down the attitude a bit.
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June 20th, 2010 on 7:19 pm
I’m odd one out also. Before you give birth you should also have an after birth plan. This blogger seems to have spent a lot of time (perhaps an understatement) educating herself for a home birth. She seemed to have planned the home birth with great attention to detail. I would have thought she would have extended that desire to be in more control to the post partum care. I’m surprised her midwife didn’t help with suggestions for post partum care.
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June 21st, 2010 on 11:52 am
Wow…I jus read this. I can’t believe that happened to you. I live in San Francisco now and folks are much, much more open to home birthing…at least the ones I hang out with.
I was a c-section, but both my younger sisters were home births done through HomeFirst (http://homefirst.com/), which is a medical practice based in Chicago (they have offices in quite a few suburbs). They are FANTASTIC in so, so many ways. I grew up going to them and I think that they would be a really good fit for you when you move. I have a couple issues with them now, but at least they’d be open to your birth choices.
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July 3rd, 2010 on 5:10 am
I was “fired” from my obgyn’s office because of a previous homebirth. I feel for you, and you have the right to give birth where ever you want to.
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