Note: This topic is deep, controversial, and extremely sensitive in our current social climate. It is not possible for me to cover every facet of every argument with one post. I am using this platform today to voice my current thinking and explore some of my past views. I wanted to remind everyone of the importance of being civil in the comment section. I will be watching the comments closely and deleting anything that resembles a personal character attack.
With this post I wanted to acknowledge other Mormons who have voiced their thoughts even though it might be difficult. I am proud to stand with them and say that I think we can only move toward perfection as we explore our weaknesses.
Recently, I found a quote by a well-known church leader suggesting that solo masturbation would lead to mutual masturbation with someone of the same gender, which would eventually lead to homosexuality and continue to progress until the most deprave acts were committed. I had never considered before that this might be how some LDS Church leaders view homosexuality. Not as a state of being that is part of an individual’s personhood, but a sort of perversion of the normal state due to letting your guard down and exploring the immoral. My thoughts and views on homosexuality have certainly evolved over time, but when I think back to the homosexual people I have encountered throughout my life, I can’t ever remember thinking that they became that way because they watched too much pornography or masturbated too frequently.
Homosexuality is not a product of masturbation, of someone neglecting to bridle their passions. It is not about choice, nor is it something you “fall into” as you race down a slippery slope to damnation. Science really hasn’t come to a conclusion yet regarding the roots behind homosexuality. Is it nature? Nurture? A combination of both? While we don’t have firm answers, simply choosing to be attracted to the same sex is not one of the options.
Recently, I’ve started praying and pondering everything, and I realized that I’ve never prayed to find out if God really condemns homosexuality. I always felt sure that what I had been told by Church leaders was right because we know of the Plan of Salvation, where we would eventually pair up in male/female pairs for eternity, and from this perspective it made sense to condemn homosexuality as a perversion of God’s intended order for the universe. However, if you accept the possibility that homosexuality is an innate characteristic, that has to mean that God implanted an overwhelming desire to sin as part of a homosexual person’s daily life. For many who identify as homosexual, the idea of heterosexual romantic relationships is actually a repulsive thing. Why would a God who told us “Men are that they might have joy” deprive so many of his children from one of the greatest joys we can experience during mortality, that of a committed, and yes, sexual, relationship?
My praying and pondering has not led me to any firm answer for any of my questions yet, but I do know that I’m no longer able to sentence so many good and loving people to lives devoid of companionship, sexual fulfillment, immediate family bonds with progeny, and love. It is as impossible for me to imagine having a life-long marital relationship with a woman as it is impossible for a homosexual man to imagine forcing himself to be with a woman for the rest of his life.
The Church’s policy today is that those who identify as homosexual are loved and embraced, but they are not to act upon their sexual desires in any way, as doing so would mean church discipline. Up until very recently, I equated what homosexuals were being told about “choosing not to act” to what we all were being told about choosing not to act on our own sexual desires outside of marriage. If I could fight off the temptation, shouldn’t my gay friend be able to as well?
In 1998 President Gordon B. Hinckley said:
“People inquire about our position on those who consider themselves so-called gays and lesbians. My response is that we love them as sons and daughters of God. They may have certain inclinations which are powerful and which may be difficult to control. Most people have inclinations of one kind or another at various times. If they do not act upon these inclinations, then they can go forward as do all other members of the Church. If they violate the law of chastity and the moral standards of the Church, then they are subject to the discipline of the Church, just as others are”
The thing is… homosexuality isn’t just about sex or inclinations. Being a homosexual doesn’t just mean that you want to have sex with people of the same gender, just like being a heterosexual doesn’t mean that my existence is defined by having sex with a man. The person I once was used to think “Oh yeah, sometimes I want to lie or be selfish or XYZ, and I have to control that inclination.” In other words, I am a mostly honest/unselfish/sexually-in-control person who falls prey to the temptations of the Great Deceiver and must work to stay close to the Spirit to overcome such tendencies. But by this logic, I would thus need to consider a homosexual person to be a mostly heterosexual being who at times has inclinations to experiment with the same gender.
I was told that I had to control my sexual desires for a season, because eventually I would marry and this would no longer be an issue for me. I also considered the message to homosexuals to be similar. Just hold off on your evil desires until kingdom come, and then we can all be perfected and freed of these sinful urges together. Aside from no longer being sure that I even think homosexuality is a sin, I realize that I had never thought about the life I was condemning homosexuals to when I took this position. If a homosexual lives by the current plan that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has laid out by avoiding any and all homosexual activity, they will never get to have the love, companionship, trust, and sexual bonds that I experience with my lifetime partner (this is assuming, of course, that they can’t choose to find fulfillment in a heterosexual relationship). They are condemned to a life of being the third wheel or a forced marriage with someone of the opposite gender who ignites no passions for them.
We can continue to fight this out within our own religious belief system, but we do no good by declaring war on civil unions. When the idea for this post formed, my intention was to simply state that I disagreed with the Church’s position on Prop 8 and in other states where they are fighting against the legalization of gay marriage and that I don’t see any non-theological merit in the arguments that allowing homosexuals to form a union would destroy the family or limit my personal activity (including how we use our temples). I’ve reasoned through every version of the various stories regarding lawsuits concerning gay rights and civil liberty and I tried a thought experiment where I replaced the homosexual individuals in those stories with a man or woman with dark skin. Does it feel right for a photographer to say she won’t photograph a wedding because of the color of someone’s skin? What about a cake baker or a pavilion owner?
What if a non-white couple were out driving through the countryside in the middle of the night and they pulled up to a small inn owned by a family who denied them a room because of their skin color? That doesn’t feel right to me. Now replace that non-white couple with a lesbian couple, and replace the inn owners with a conservative Christian family who denied the room based on religious beliefs. That doesn’t feel Christlike to me either.
Homosexuality isn’t just about inclinations. Homosexuality isn’t only about sex. I don’t know exactly where I stand on things yet and I’m going to keep thinking about homosexuality, eternity, and what the sin really is here.
What I do know this is: I feel more at peace. I want to believe in a Christ, in a God, with arms open wide and hearts full, welcoming everyone. This is the person I am working to become. I am much closer now than I was before.
















February 16th, 2012 on 8:16 am
Wow. Good for you, Jenna. I can’t tell you how happy I am to read this. So simple, so straightforward, so radiating truth.
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February 16th, 2012 on 8:21 am
I really respect your reasoning here. I think it’s something that a lot of homophobic people fail to do: think of homosexuals as people, not just as someone solely focused on homosexual sex.
I am very liberal and fully support gay marriage. Even though I don’t associate with any one religion in particular, I was raised Catholic. It still amazes me that people use religion to persecute others when nearly every story about Jesus’s life involved sacrifice for and acceptance of others – the poor, sick, prostitutes, everyone. I feel like some people (not all!) with strong Christian views forget this, they use religion as a way to look down on others.
So, even if you don’t become fully supportive of gay marriage or gay lifestyles immediately, I applaud your efforts to question certain teachings of the church and analyze things for yourself. I think these Awakening posts are great and very brave.
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February 16th, 2012 on 8:36 am
Jenna, I really have enjoyed these posts. But I notice that when showing your new reasoning, you have no references to scripture. Just your own thoughts. And while I believe that our own reason is a tool to seek God, I think scripture is an extremely important touchstone. Have you sought out God’s word on these issues, looking for yourself what it says? If your beliefs and scriptures conflict, do you go with your own reasoning over scripture?
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Brooke Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 10:47 am
Would you like to point out a few scriptures? I know a lot of people reference the Old Testament (specifically Leviticus) but is there anything from the new? I haven’t brushed up on my scripture in a while, but from what I understand, Jesus never said “Marriage is between one woman and one man.” Is that right?
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Geek in Heels Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 10:59 am
Brooke, I felt compelled to respond to your comment because as a Christian, this is one argument that I hear over and over again (about many things, not just homosexuality). Jesus never talked about many things like child molestation, yet we know that this is a sin. As for New Testament references to homosexuality, this article talks about it: http://bible-truths.com/homosex.htm
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Brooke Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 11:36 am
As a fellow Christian, I understand. However, child molestation is wrong, whether it’s heterosexual or homosexual, because it is against that child’s will. Consenting adult relationships are very, very different. The fact remains that in Jesus’ day and before, marriage was an incredibly complicated thing. Bigamy was common. Think of Jacob, and Abraham and countless other biblical figures. Yet we now believe it’s only 1 man and 1 woman. But where does Jesus define that? Does that mean these past religious figures were “wrong”? Or were their marriages defined by the current social customs? I think this is wherein lies our problem. Sodom and Gomorrah were corrupt not because of homosexual practices, but because of rape and debauchery. They desired to take people against their will. And we can all agree that it’s a terrible thing, whether between same sexes or opposite.
My problem with quoting scripture as absolute truths is that most scripture is filtered through men, during their current social climates. Many layman Christians do not study the social practices, customs and beliefs that encompass those scriptures and take them at face value. It’s used to alienate, not encourage. To condemn, not understand. I wish more Christians would use critical thinking to analyze scripture. And I don’t mean to say you, at all. I’m more thinking about my incredibly close-minded and traditional family.
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Geek in Heels Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 11:46 am
My personal belief is that much of Old Testament accounts are for historical and moral lessons. Not everyone was perfect, and even Abraham and Jacob and Moses and Noah were all sinners. When God created humans, He created Adam and Eve and thus lay the very first marriage. What came after are all a result of original sin. So yes, I believe that bigamy and polygamy which many Old Testament figures practiced, are wrong. Yes they had their reasons to do so (i.e., social expectations and norms), but that doesn’t mean they were right.
I am actually not against gay marriage because I believe everyone should have equal rights. But I do believe homosexuality is a sin, based on what I have studied and prayed about. I plan on writing about this topic in more detail this Sunday (and I wish I could write more now but the little one just woke up!)
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Brooke Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 11:57 am
You are one of the first people I’ve met to share that belief on the Old Testament! Though my personal thoughts go even further, in that I don’t necessarily believe they are accurate historical accounts. Back in high school I was introduced to the book “A New Kind of Christian” and the idea that something doesn’t have to be true, to hold truth. Such as Jesus teaching in parables. I don’t necessarily believe Adam and Eve were the first two beings. I know it sounds crazy, but it took a lot of theological discussion and research to come to that belief. I had some wonderful youth ministers during that time that really challenged conventional beliefs.
And just to keep the discussion going (even though I know you are busy with those adorable little ones!) I struggle with the “being born this way” aspect a lot. Because frankly, child molesters are born with those urges. In that sense, you could call them “natural” because it’s part of their nature. Does that make it right? Hell no. And I think that’s where a lot of people stand on homosexuality. My thoughts though, hinge on the aspect of consent. Children can not consent. Ever. They do not know what is happening, and it is an immense tragedy when they are violated in that way. But consenting adults? I don’t think they’re being violated. And it’s hard for me to say that a healthy sexual relationship in any capacity is a sin. But again, these are lifelong theological debates I’ll have with myself.
I love that you can disagree with the principles personally, yet not feel threatened by gay marriage. I think this is the direction where all Christians need to start thinking. How is their decision a criticism of your own? Why should an entire nation be defined by a single set of religious morals that all do not even adopt?
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Alicia Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 1:36 pm
I also have similar views on the Old Testament. The best example I can think of is Solomon- he had many wives and concubines, something that was basically sexual promiscuity border lining on adultery, and yet we have so many beautiful scriptures (supposedly) penned by him. I think, because God generally works through people and not over them, so many ideas set forth by both ancient and modern spiritual leaders should be examined with their personal world views in mind. It’s like trying to see what God really means by reading a book wearing glasses that aren’t your prescription. Not to say that there isn’t any value there; I think there is a lot and it’s our responsibility to glean from it what we can. That’s why I think it’s incredibly important to study things out for ourselves to sort through what God intends for us to understand. However, I was raised to read scripture as the literal word of God so it is something I have had to learn and adjust to over time, and even now it occasionally feels like blasphemy. One of the best classes I ever took at BYU was the Bible as literature- we pulled out many different translations and I would encourage anyone to try reading the scriptures this way. So much has changed in language, even in the last century; we need to do our best to try and understand what was written thousands of years ago using as many resources as possible.
Regarding homosexuality- I also think it is a sin. However, I support civil unions. As consenting adults, we are free to choose for ourselves how we will live out our lives and homosexuality shouldn’t be an exception to that.
The line becomes blurry for me when it comes to how to explain this to children and how churches could be affected. It is important to me that children understand that there are many different viewpoints in the world, that there are others who will think differently than themselves. I want my children to know that their personal universe is not the only one. What comes to mind, though, is that I think it is morally wrong to be in a homosexual relationship, but others think it is not, that it is even morally right to act and embrace those feelings, so which viewpoint will be shared in schools? I would hope that both worldviews would be shared, but I don’t think that will be the case. I would also hope that churches would not be forced to change what has been an established moral stance and made to perform marriages against their moral conscience.
I just don’t know how to reconcile whose rights prevail, and it’s something I am continuing to think about and try to understand. I hope what I have said doesn’t prove hurtful; that is not my intent. I just want to try and reconcile all these ideas in my head.
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Marissa C Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 3:32 pm
All three of your views on the Old Testament are pretty much in line with the Catholic Church, btw
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Alicia Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 5:21 pm
It’s funny you should say that. I’ve always felt a strong kinship with Catholics and respect their doctrine and attitude towards authority. I had an experience once while attending mass; feeling the Spirit confirm that this was good. However, I can never deny what the Spirit has confirmed to me about the Book of Mormon and other doctrine central to our beliefs. However, I do know Truth can be found everywhere.
On a semi-related note, I am glad that, lately, Christians of all denominations seem to be supporting each other more and more. Coalitions are springing up. It’s like a huge global family of believers, and I’m so happy we can all move beyond petty differences. It’s a sense of camaraderie I really value.
I’ve always felt that if I hadn’t been Mormon and known it was true for myself, I would most likely have turned to Catholicism.
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Geek in Heels Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 4:50 pm
If you think about it, even the consenting adults argument can be argued when it comes to adultery, polygamy, incest, and so forth. Not all are necessarily illegal (Fact of the day: did you know that adultery is technically illegal in South Korea? It’s just not very enforced.), but whether they are morally correct is all up for debate. Like others have said, it’s such a blurry line that I honestly don’t worry about it too much. I’ll let God do the judging when the time comes.
I just think that the church is focusing too much attention to an issue that is not detrimental to society when there are far more pressing issues on hand and far more dangerous sins that the church members themselves — I myself included — practice.
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Christiana Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 1:11 pm
Jenny (you know I love you and I’m truly curious), I’m confused if you feel “My personal belief is that much of Old Testament accounts are for historical and moral lessons.” Then why wouldn’t this be true of the New Testament as well?
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Geek in Heels Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 4:55 pm
Sorry, I should have been more clear in that what I said should not be exclusive to the Old Testament.
VERY generally speaking, the OT is filled with stories, laws, and lessons that were designed to protect and provide for the purity of the Jews until the Messiah came. And very generally speaking, the NT marks the beginning of a new covenant between God and man, and tells the story of the Messiah and clarifies the new covenant.
And while most of the OT laws became no longer necessary with Christ’s sacrifice, moral laws, such as what we find in the Ten Commandments, will never pass away because they are rooted in the very character of God.
Did that answer your question? I hope it did!
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Grace Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 9:30 am
Jenny, I look forward to your post. You always have an interesting perspective!
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Rachel Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 1:02 pm
Loved this Brooke. I actually wonder how much we understand of the plan of salvation. What if the comforts given by church leaders to unmaried members could be for homosexuals that they might be sealed to their partners in the next season? What if spiritual procreation doesn’t follow thec same gender requirements as on Earth. I don’t know where I stand and now that I’ve been through the temple, I wonder even more.
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Jessica Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 1:29 pm
My point wasn’t really to make a scriptural argument for a certain point, but rather to point out that Jenna doesn’t seem to have looked into scripture AT ALL. I think her thoughts are totally valid and God does lead us through our rational faculties. But to change your point of view on what she previously seemed to feel was an important part of her faith — without looking into Biblical perspectives at all — seems wrong to me. It seems self-centered instead of God-centered. So if she feels that scripture can be disregarded, or that scripture supports her position, I think she should explain how she’s come to that position.
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Ru Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 1:49 pm
Just to chime in from my lurking — I personally dislike when someone disregards my thoughts or opinions because they assume I have not studied scripture enough or prayed enough. Often I have done both, but prefer to keep some things to myself. But more importantly, it implies that I have gone about reaching my conclusion in a “wrong” way and that if I had been more righteous, I would have come to the “right” conclusion.
While I think asking Jenna if she had studied the scriptures in addition to praying about this topic is a valid question, it ought to be asked with a sincere intent to find out the answer. You are jumping to the conclusion that she has not studied the scriptures simply because she was silent on that issue, and that is not fair.
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Brooke Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 1:50 pm
But what scriptures? And I’m not calling you out, I’m genuinely curious. Since Jenna didn’t provide any, are there some that you would like to contribute? It seems that the church often takes stances on things that scripture doesn’t always cover. Like dancing. I don’t think theology always has to be based in scripture alone. Faith is about feelings and conviction as well. And since Jenna stated that she prayed and meditated with God over the subject, I wouldn’t say that’s “self-centered”. Protestant religions thrive on a personal relationship with God. I think her conversing in prayer is completely valid.
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Jackie Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 2:16 pm
But scriptures are not God. She said she prayed about it. God is bigger than the Bible. Jesus did not tell us just to read the Bible, but to live as he would. I think there is value in prayer, discussion, and personal exploration as well.
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Tiffany Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 1:51 pm
1 Corinthians 6:9- New Testament scripture that says homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven. I feel like we accept and treat everyone equally here on earth and we are to let God do the judging.
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Kelly @ The Startup Wife Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 1:59 pm
Interestingly, the original Greek doesn’t actually say ‘homosexuals.’ It says a word that rather recently (past 40ish years) has begun to be translated as ‘homosexuals.’ Worth reading up on the etymology of the word and the interpretation of it! I posted this elsewhere but this is a really good resource: http://www.soulforce.org/resources/what-the-bible-says-and-doesnt-say-about-homosexuality/
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Jessica Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 2:38 pm
Kelly – really interesting site. I am already really enjoying reading it. Thank you for passing it along!
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Jessica Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 2:03 pm
Sorry, I’m not here to start a theological argument, trading scripture. I just don’t think comment threads are a useful forum for such things. Any rudimentary searches can turn up relevant scripture for both arguments on the issue.
My point is this: I remember once reading on Jenna’s formspring that if the Mormon Church approved of gay marriage, she would lose her faith in the church. So obviously this is really a huge issue for her. And it seems like she is really really wrestling with it, through thought and prayer. (And you’re right, prayer is a huge way of looking for God’s will and wisdom.) But to
completely leave out or ignore scripture when mulling over something this important…. I think that’s folly. Scripture has to be at least one way (and I think one of the most important ways) to discern the truth for a believer.
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Jackie Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 2:48 pm
That needs to be read in its full context.
The first part is practically an argument for separation of church and state. 1 Cor 6 says ” When any of you has a grievance against another, do you dare to take it to court before the unrighteous, instead of taking it before the saints.” Basically – why are you getting the law involved, shouldn’t you be settling these things yourself. So why does it matter if gay marriage is legal? Paul is saying that issues of morality should be taken up amidst believers, no need to involve others. Granted, he is talking about law suits among believers, not legislation, but I think the principle is that the law does not need to get involved.
Homosexuals are also not the only thing in that list – “Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers.” Some of these things are illegal – thieving, prostitution, robbing. But fornication, adultery, greed, being drunk – those things are all legal in society. Why focus on homosexuality? Even if we choose to ignore what Paul said in the first part of the chapter and decide to legislate morality, why are we deciding some things are more important than others?
Third, the most important verse in this is “And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” We are sinners, yes, but we are washed, justified, sanctified. If homosexuality is a sin, isn’t it irrelevant if God sees us as washed clean?
Fourth, in verse 12, Paul says “all things are lawful, but not all things are beneficial.” So again, even if we are operating under the premise that homosexuality is a sin, he is not implying that this is a law they will go to hell. He is telling people to act in a way that is beneficial to themselves and to honor God.
Keep in mind that this is a time period when people do not really understand homosexuality as something biological. Let’s go back to Genesis 19 and the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. It is not a tale of two lovers – it is a tale of attempted rape. Going against what God designed, sex in love, is immorral. But if God makes us all, and homosexuality is natural, is that immoral? Is that really the same as rape? Furthermore, I don’t think we can really look at that story as an example of what is good and what is bad. Lot offered his two virgin daughters to be raped instead. I mean, really? Fornication, rape? That’s more moral than homosexuality? There are a lot of stories in the old testament that make us go “wasn’t that a sin?” It’s not picture perfect examples of humanity, it’s a story.
Jesus does talk about marriage a few times. In Matthew 19 he says that divorce is immoral (although, again, it is legal and we don’t seem to mind that). In Mark 12, he rebukes people for worrying about who is married to who in heaven. He doesn’t spend more than half a second dwelling on it, because it’s really not what is important. Jesus main message wasn’t marriage. Two verses later, he is saying the greatest commandment it is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and to love your neighbor as yourself. This was a trick question because Jews were bound to keep 613 commandments, all important. Jesus here is saying it’s not the law that it is important – it is God. Jesus is the fulfillment of the law.
People frequently make this argument that Jesus abolished the old law, so even though the Bible also condemns eating pork, we’re really just bound to what is in the New Testament. And since homosexuality is mentioned in the New Testament – it’s still a sin. But we can’t have it both ways. We can’t look at the Old Testament as just a relic of its time, but expect the New Testament, written by real people in a real social context, to some how have transcended that and have created a timeless document. The Bible is real, it is real letters written by real people with real struggles, real sins, real imperfections, who nonetheless created a holy book. They didn’t write the New Testament to be a Part II of the Bible – they were writing letters to friends. Paul even says in some spots “I am saying this, not God.” And there are many parts of the New Testament we conveniently ignore too. That women are supposed to cover there heads when they pray? Anyone do that?
Finally, Jenna’s entire post, whether she meant to reference it or not, is really summed up in one single scripture:
“But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.” 1 Cor 7:9
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Virginia Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 3:56 pm
Your comments in this post (and others) are so interesting and articulate. Thank you.
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Geek in Heels Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 5:36 pm
I agree with you on the vast majority of your points. However, I’m a bit confused as to your interpretation of the Bible — are you saying that it is an imperfect book written by imperfect humans? While I agree that the Bible *was* written by man, I believe that it is the divine Word of God which, by its definition, is perfect. I personally believe that the Bible is true and complete, and that when reading and studying it, we should take into account various factors such as who it was written for and the history behind the setting. I recently wrote a blog post about it, if you’re interested (and coincidentally, it explains the head covering issue you talk about above): http://www.geekinheels.com/2012/01/22/reverent-sundays-cherry-picking-bible-verses.html
P.S. — I’m not writing this in order to try to say that I’m right and you’re wrong. (And for all I know, I could have grossly misinterpreted what you wrote.) I just enjoy healthy biblical debates and was very intrigued by your comment.
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Steph Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 10:06 pm
Just a question for Jenny… do you think that a translation of the Bible is Divinely inspired and perfect? Because I can see the idea that Bible would be perfect in the language it was originally written in, but cultural and language are quite intimately related – so I find it difficult to think that a modern scholar translating the New Testament from the original Greek, for instance, could perfectly capture the meaning of every single word.
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Geek in Heels Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 10:19 pm
I do not believe that there is any current translation that is perfect, because as you said, culture and language is intimately related. (And being bilingual myself, I know for a fact that there are some words that just can’t be completely translated to another language.) As a result, I own several translations of the Bible and always double-check whenever I am thoroughly studying a passage. One of my favorite former pastors still remains a friend, and he has studied Greek extensively, so I also like to go to him when I have questions. Personally, my favorite translations are the NIV for the intent and ESV for the literal translation — I believe that the concurrent use of the two is one of the best combinations when seriously studying the Bible in our modern American English language.
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Jackie Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 1:34 am
I don’t think I got my point across very well, I was kinda in a hurry. Your post was much better. My point is that the Bible has discrepancies in it. It wasn’t put together until 400 years after the Church was. There were 7 books that were taken out during the Protestant reformation. I don’t take the Bible 100% literally, which people say all the time about the Old Testament, but I think it’s true of the New as well. Like you said, we need to see it in its historical context.
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Sara Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 3:56 pm
Shame, shame, shame on anyone who compares homosexuality to child molestation. Think about this very carefully, and think about the way that your words can hurt people.
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Jenna Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 4:01 pm
Just wanted to chime in in defense for Jenny, I don’t think she was trying to say that homosexuals are like child molesters any more than one would argue that a liar is like a thief. (other than that both are wrong (both lying and stealing))
I don’t want to speak for Jenny, but I know that I once felt that homosexuality just fell on the “spectrum of sin” and I always had a hard time getting the point across.
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Sara Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 4:07 pm
Maybe not, but putting them in the same thought like that is just horrid. Comparing (even as weakly as that) what consenting adults do to crimes that are committed against children does a real disservice to the kind of reasoned conversation you’re trying to have here.
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Geek in Heels Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 5:12 pm
Thanks, Jenna for standing up for me.
And Sara, what Jenna said is correct in that by no means did I want to compare the horrors of child molestation to homosexuality — it was just the first sin that popped into my head that fit the point I was trying to make (i.e., one of the many sins that Jesus never talks about in the Bible but is still a sin). Perhaps I should have listed another sin that is not as offending, or not given an example at all. And I apologize that you took offense to that.
That being said, if you want to get technical, by listing homosexuality as a sin I guess I *am* comparing it to child molestation which is another sin. But so is lying, adultery, pride, murder, and so forth. I personally believe that there is no degree of sin where one sin is worse than the other (because sin and sin and all sin can be forgiven except for the unforgivable sin which is permanently rejecting Christ), but I do believe that certain sins are more dangerous than others, like pride.
Please note that I believe I am no moral or no less a sinner than homosexuals, and if anything I know plenty of gays who are far better people than me. I believe Christians should love and embrace homosexuals, and I believe that homosexuals should be granted every equal right as heterosexuals and that no one should force their religious beliefs down others’ throats. I guess this is hard for others to understand because of my stance on homosexuality being a sin, but I honestly believe that it is possible for Christians to love homosexuals. And can a Christian be gay? Yes, and that is up to him/her to take up with God.
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Married in Chicago Reply:
February 19th, 2012 at 2:43 pm
I’m curious about what child molestation was the sin that “just popped” into your head. Much of the anti-gay media that was popular throughout history has suggested that older gay men regularly prey on young innocent children (physically as well as psychologically). More recently, this is seen in the general question about whether gays and lesbians (or even just learning about GLBT issues) might be dangerous or harmful to children. Furthermore, many people hold negative stereotypes about the sexual morality of GLBT folk. I don’t mean to attack you, but rather to suggest that your comparison was not just a completely random slip of the tongue. Rather, it is a product and a perpetuation of anti-gay messages that subtlety and not so subtly link child molestation with alternative sexual orientations.
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February 16th, 2012 on 8:36 am
I am so so so proud you. Too often people simple believe what they are told.
Challenging your beliefs can’t be easy or comfortable but that’s why it’s good.
Good for you!
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February 16th, 2012 on 8:40 am
Well said Jenna. I don’t think I would be able to so eloquently state this reasoning even though I share it.
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February 16th, 2012 on 8:41 am
Thank you. I am happy any time anyone comes to a conclusion about these matters that is heartfelt and well-thought.
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February 16th, 2012 on 8:41 am
Don’t usually comment, but just wanted to say that this post was really beautiful. I don’t agree with everything said–I’m all for gay marriage and my prayer as a believer is that God doesn’t damn someone for having an intimate love with someone of the same sex.
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February 16th, 2012 on 8:42 am
I am so glad you posted this. I am not LDS, but I am Protestant and going through the same thing… I was very adamant in high school that gay = wrong and didn’t consider all sides. I am softening my thoughts so much now and am in the same exact position as you currently. It is hard, but I am trying to figure out where my new thoughts/beliefs fit in with the Bible and God’s thoughts, but I hope to some day figure it out. Let me know if you do
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February 16th, 2012 on 8:44 am
I’m so proud of you. So So So So proud of you.
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February 16th, 2012 on 8:44 am
Thanks, Jenna for your willingness to be open-minded. I’ll admit that I’ve always been pretty judgmental about Mormons and it has nothing to do with their religious beliefs (because when it comes right down to it, all religions can sound kinda crazy). It’s because so many live in a bubble. They surround themselves with other people who believe EXACTLY what they believe, who have the EXACT same goals that they do, and quite frankly, they seem to just float through life…never having to question anything. It’s refreshing to see that not all Mormons are like that.
I really like how you emphasize that homosexuality is NOT all about sex. It’s about all the things that heterosexuals want in life too. I can’t imagine if someone had told me four years ago that I couldn’t marry my husband. That we couldn’t share a life together or have children. Having someone tell me that “they still love me as a child of God,” yet they also believe I’m a pervert who should choose between a lifetime of deprivation of basic human needs or eternal damnation.
There’s nothing wrong with questioning the beliefs of leaders and that in no way implies that they are malicious or have bad intentions. It just means that they’re human too and they can’t always know what the right answer is.
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February 16th, 2012 on 8:55 am
This is so perfectly, eloquently explained — my favorite post yet in the Awakening series, though I’ve loved them all!
I am Catholic, and I go back and forth on the issue of civil unions/ gay marriage with my mom all the time (she’s opposed).
Re: Jessica’s scripture question — which she obviously wasn’t directing toward me
— I don’t know if you’re referring to the Bible or the Book of Mormon, which I’m not familiar with, but I feel like there are so many conflicting scripture passages over controversial issues that when I’m confused, I always return to Mark 12:28 – 31…
“One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, ‘Of all the commandments, which is the most important?’
‘The most important one,” answered Jesus, ‘is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
So if I’m conflicted, I try to follow that golden-rule sort of guideline and treat others as I’d want to be treated were I in their shoes.
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February 16th, 2012 on 8:57 am
I was nervous when I saw that you were going to write about this, and I am really impressed with how well you reasoned through and explained your position. Thank you for your openmindedness, and thank you for speaking about it on such a wide platform! THIS is exactly right: “they will never get to have the love, companionship, trust, and sexual bonds that I experience with my lifetime partner (this is assuming, of course, that they can’t choose to find fulfillment in a heterosexual relationship). They are condemned to a life of being the third wheel or a forced marriage with someone of the opposite gender who ignites no passions for them.” I tried dating men for awhile, and there was absolutely no passion there *in my emotions* for them. Thank you.
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February 16th, 2012 on 9:15 am
Great post Jenna. My biggest issue with organized religion is that so many members and leaders use religion as an excuse to be racist, bigoted, and cruel to those that look different or act different. I love that you have been able to look past what the church tells you and form your own opinions. I have a serious issue with anyone close minded enough to think that gay marriage is a sin or somehow effects the sanctity of marriage. So many people blindly follow what their church leaders tell them without doing any critical thinking. Throughout your awakening series, my respect for you has grown.
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February 16th, 2012 on 9:17 am
” I want to believe in a Christ, in a God, with arms open wide and hearts full, welcoming everyone. ”
Exactly!
I also really liked your point that this can still be discussed within a religion, but there’s not reason to fight it legally. Secular marriage can be different from religious/sacramental marriage!
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February 16th, 2012 on 9:20 am
I’ve commented before with how much I love this series, and I have to say so again.
Jenna, just like you are letting the views of the world shape your opinions, you are helping to shape my opinions of religion.
I’ve always considered myself to be far more culturally Jewish than spiritually Jewish; I suspect a lot of this comes from being a scientist and lacking the ability to blindly believe in anything without data. But more frequently, I’ve found myself completely turned off to all religion because it breeds hatred and bigotry, and if this Jesus person I hear so much about really did exist, that doesn’t sound like something he’d support.
I’m so tired of hearing about how to perfectly wonderful, caring individuals who give back to the community and treat everyone with kindness are destined to a life in hell because they chose homosexuality and weren’t strong enough to overcome their sinful impulses. I’ve been told, my one of my very best friends, that it’s sad that I’ll be going to hell just because I was born to a Jewish family… but meanwhile, she truly believes that someone who murders or rapes can be saved if they beg for forgiveness and confess their sins. But me, a perfectly normal person who doesn’t do anything particularly great but, in return, has never done anything morally wrong, is destined to an eternity in hell simply because I’m a different religion?
Frankly, it’s crap, and I’ve become very anti-conservative religion as a result. Reading this, however, makes me realize that not everyone agrees with teachings of their church, and just because a blanket policy exists to be anti-homosexuality doesn’t mean that every member has to agree. I think it’s very brave of you to state your opinions, especially that you realize it’s not a choice, and make sure you know how much I appreciate reading these posts because they’re changing me, too.
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February 16th, 2012 on 9:21 am
Beautiful post, Jenna! I really enjoyed this because equal rights for the LGBT community is very close to my heart. I hope that more religious people take the time to think over these issues just as you’re doing. The thing that has always frightened me about religion is when people accept what others say blindly, no matter what it means when it comes to treating fellow human beings with respect. I hope more people will look inside themselves to determine what’s right, what’s fair, and what the root of their beliefs should be about.
I hope that all of this introspection brings you peace and joy!
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February 16th, 2012 on 9:22 am
Jenna,
I don’t know how I found your blog back when you were planning your wedding, but I am happy that I did. You are truly someone who speaks for herself. You have taught me a lot about something I have often been closed minded about myself (Mormons). You are taking risks, and saying things that may be controversial in your community. Mostly though, you are showing people what it means to be a person who questions, who tries to find what is right for you without saying it is right for all.
I live in Minnesota and am currently working on a political campaign called Minnesotans United for All Families (mnunited.org). We are fighting a constitutional amendment which will be on the ballot in November. This amendment attempts to alter our state constitution to say that marriage shall be solely between one man and one woman. This amendment would mean that discrimination is written into our constitution. Many members of the faith community have joined our coalition and are fighting along with us. I am a heterosexual and I am compelled to work tirelessly to defeat this and other amendments like it.
Thank you, Jenna, for asking yourself these questions. Thank you for using your voice to show people that questioning is an important part of becoming the person you want to be.
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Erica Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 1:45 pm
I live in MN and I can’t wait to vote against this amendment! I was married by a judge because I actually believe that the state should only recognize civil unions. France operates this way. Then couples who want to have a religious ceremony do so after their civil ceremony.
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Virginia Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 3:21 pm
It’s the same in Argentina. You have a civil ceremony and then, if you wish, you can have a religious ceremony in the church of your preference.
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busylizzy111 Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 2:23 am
And in Germany.
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February 16th, 2012 on 9:38 am
If you have some free time, I recommend the following:
http://www.amazon.com/Gay-Straight-Reason-Why-Orientation/dp/0199737673
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February 16th, 2012 on 9:45 am
Good for you. Seriously.
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February 16th, 2012 on 9:48 am
This is beautifully written and perfectly mimics my own feelings. I too don’t have all the answers yet, but I do know that anger and fear have no part of living the Gospel.
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February 16th, 2012 on 10:09 am
Thanks, Jenna, for your honesty and openness. I agree that the battle against civil unions is unreasonable. I also agree with that article you mentioned regarding gay rights versus religious liberty that we should be able to come together and really listen to each other and find a compromise that both sides are willing to accept. It is my own current understanding and testimony that God does love all His children and wants us to love each other, that He gives all men weaknesses to lend us humility to seek His help, that we can truly do all things through Christ no matter how difficult, and that the highest form of exaltation is patterned after the order God has shown with marriage and procreation between a man and a woman. As for expectations for LDS homosexuals: there are also plenty of heterosexual people who never marry in this life who are expected live the law of chastity, to deal with exactly the same problem as do unmarried homosexuals.
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Jenna Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 10:30 am
I wish we had some data on how many heterosexuals are really living their entire life in a chaste manner, without ever giving in to temptation. Podcasts like this one http://mormonmatters.org/2011/10/25/57-lds-young-single-adult-experiences-revisited/ and conversations with my single friends are making me realize that many, many people aren’t actually “waiting for marriage”. They are certainly able to repent, but I think we aren’t being realistic regarding how difficult it is to live without a significant other when we cite them as reason that homosexuals should be able to wait.
Plus a homosexual person isn’t being told to “wait until the right person comes along”. They are being told celibacy is the only option. For the rest of their life. That is a dramatically different statement than telling my single friend that she can’t have sex until she gets married.
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Jessica Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 1:37 pm
I actually tend to agree with civil unions and gay rights in general. But I think your reasoning leaves a lot to be desired in terms of a religious stance. Just because something is hard doesn’t mean we’re excused from doing it. Loving our enemies is hard. Turning the other cheek is hard. Abstaining from drugs is extremely hard if you’re an addict. Just because something is hard, and our culture has implicitly said “that’s ok” doesn’t change what God is asking of us.
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Jenna Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 1:46 pm
I wasn’t trying to imply that this was my reason behind where I stand now. Only my response to the idea that “heterosexuals live celibate lives”. Because I don’t think they generally are.
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frenchtoast Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 6:32 pm
Jenna, I disagree with your with your conclusion that you can’t equate telling gay people to remain celibate to the situation of singles in the church. Of course there are those that become frustrated and sin, but many don’t. And while we are told that “the right person” will come, that is not always the case. Many faithful women will live their entire lives and never have the opportunity to marry.
I’ve always made this analogy – Think of alcohol. I honestly don’t think drinking is inherently bad. But laws and commandments were created for the weakest amoung us. We are told to avoid alcohol, and though many people drink in moderation and are fine, to others it can destroy lives. I have friends who drink, and I love them. I don’t expect them to follow my same standards. Likewise, I have many gay friends who I love. While I don’t think their choice is the best one, it doesn’t mean they are evil.
We all have our own temptations… some people are more prone to drink, or be un-chaste (you’ve even mentioned that your choice in movies revolves around what types of things trigger you – and you avoid them).
Just my two cents, Jenna. Just curious about your thoughts!
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Sophia Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 10:25 pm
To me they are still inherently different. Here’s why.
You have a single straight person single for a long time. They may or may not ever find someone, but if they *do*, they can marry that person and find happiness. So, for them, it is not “I’m waiting until I die and get resurrected” it’s “I’m waiting until I find someone”.
You have a single gay person, single for a long time. Even if they find someone they love, they can never be with that person. This person knows, *from the beginning* that they are DEFINITELY waiting until they die and get resurrected to have companionship.
The former is filled with possibility and opportunity to engage in a relationship should the possibility present itself. Might they have to wait until the resurrection to be with someone? Yes, but they *don’t know that FOR SURE* going into it. A gay person does not dwell in possibility, at all. They know from the get go “I need to die before I”m ‘perfected’ and can have a mate”.
To me, the two are vastly different in terms of how it affects one’s emotions, outlook on life, and general happiness/joy in day to day living.
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February 16th, 2012 on 10:11 am
This was an awesome post. So well written and very articulate. How amazing to put so much prayer and consideration into a very current, important issue. Your blog was thoughtful and showed wonderful spiritual growth. Thanks for being so open. I’ll continue to read because I love your honesty.
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February 16th, 2012 on 10:20 am
Excellent, thoughtful post, Jenna.
I come from a politically liberal family and faith tradition so don’t have the same internal conflict as you. But here’s one thing that helped me as I was figuring this out growing up, and will help me when I talk to my kids about sexuality some day. Promiscuous sexual behavior/sex outside of a loving relationship can (often) be damaging to a person, whether you are straight or gay. Sex within a loving relationship is healthy and can strengthen the bonds of love, commitment, and responsibility between people, and ultimately strengthen society as a whole. We should encourage those healthy bonds of love and commitment between people–which is one of the reasons marriage exists, and one of the reasons I support gay marriage. Hold all people to the same moral standards, and offer all people the same social/legal means of forming committed, responsible relationships.
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Jenna Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 10:32 am
Yes! This was key in helping me move closer to this mindset.
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Kate Reply:
February 18th, 2012 at 8:07 am
This is so incredibly well said, I want to bookmark it just so I can remember this specific and honest explanation for MY future children. Thanks!
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February 16th, 2012 on 10:30 am
Thabk you for this post, Jenna. I wish more people were as open-minded, thoughtful, and articulate as you.
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February 16th, 2012 on 10:35 am
Beautifully written. I love hearing how you are questioning everything! I appreciate your honesty and taking the risks of doing this so publically. You may not realize but you’re also helping all your readers also question their “beliefs”.
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February 16th, 2012 on 10:40 am
I like you more and more lately… but that doesn’t matter. I think you’ll find that your awakening is going to enable you to like YOURSELF more. Good for you!
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Kate Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 11:41 pm
Everything Sam said!
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February 16th, 2012 on 10:41 am
Coming from a non denominational church schooling I also struggled with the same things growing up. I have to say this is wonderfully written and echoes so many of things I have come through thinking and now believing on my own what I want to believe.
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February 16th, 2012 on 10:45 am
Doesn’t it feel so awesome to think for yourself? Great post Jenna
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February 16th, 2012 on 11:00 am
Really beautiful post Jenna, thank you for sharing your thoughts throughout this whole series.
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February 16th, 2012 on 11:00 am
This is an outstanding post. Very thoughtful and insightful. You’re right, so many forget that homosexuality isn’t purely about sexuality. The name itself is just foolish. I also grew up in an incredibly conservative denomination (Southern Baptist) and I’ve had to come to this very same awakening. I’m proud to say that through thoughtful conversation with my husband, he’s also come to this line of thinking. I wish the hatred would end. I know it won’t truly stop for everyone, but I fervently desire that what happened in Washington will start a landslide of marriage revolutions across the nation. I know Texas isn’t exactly in the forefront of this battle, but I do hope we’re not the last to hold out. I feel that it’s inevitable, but it could take a lot of time to finally achieve marriage equality.
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February 16th, 2012 on 11:06 am
Jenna, you already know my thoughts on this issue so I won’t repeat it.
I know that personally, I grew up in the church but went through a few years where I probably would be labeled as agnostic, and only when I studied and challenged all belief systems (including other religions and even atheism) that I decided that Christianity was the right way to go. I hope that you will continue to question, challenge, and think for yourself — you may decide that LDS is not the right path for you, or you may even come to a conclusion similar to myself where you become even more firmly rooted in the Mormon church and its beliefs. Whatever happens, I hope that it does because you continue on this path to better yourself. Just know that I’m happy that you’re happy and at peace.
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frenchtoast Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 6:33 pm
Geek in Heels – you grew up LDS?
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Geek in Heels Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 10:08 pm
No, I grew up a Protestant Christian and remain so. I guess I should have clarified that in my comment above, I meant the Christian Church as a whole when I say “the church.”
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February 16th, 2012 on 11:14 am
Thank you, thank you, thank you for being brave enough to write this post and share it with us, Jenna. I am so proud of you. As a Christian, I went through a similar spiritual and mental journey many years ago in my understanding of homosexuality, and nowadays I can’t believe I ever felt anything but complete and whole love and support for them.
I *strongly* encourage you to check out the writings of Justin Lee, a leader in the pro-gay Christian movement. I stumbled across him recently and have become a huge admirer. Here’s his moving story of his life journey with God and his own homosexuality:
http://rachelheldevans.com/ask-a-gay-christian-response
Justin’s website, the Gay Christian Network: http://www.gaychristian.net/
And on Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/gcnjustin
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Jenna Reply:
March 6th, 2012 at 10:11 pm
Thank you so much for introducing me to his story. I most appreciate his frank and thorough discussion about how he has come to interpret the Bible verses that condemn homosexuality. I hope a lot of people clicked over and read this link!
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February 16th, 2012 on 11:15 am
Love this post so much!
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February 16th, 2012 on 11:19 am
I love what you said about the fact that forcing a gay man to be with a woman, would be like imagining us as straight women being with another woman. I believe 100% that homosexuality is not a choice, and in that case it is so sad that they are shunned and stripped of rights for something they never chose to be.
one of my favorite quotes recently from Facebook: “Fortunately, those who do not believe in gay marriage, do not have to participate in gay marriage.”
For me, being supportive of gay rights was an automatic no-brainer, didn’t even have ton vacilate for a second….but I respect so much the process you are going through and the thought you are giving the subject. I wish everyone was as thoughtful and open-minded about it as you are!
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February 16th, 2012 on 11:22 am
Jenna – if more people took the time to think things through and challenge ‘norms’ the way that this post describes, the country would be on track to accomplish a lot more. i’m not a religious person at all but i read this post as an intelligent person thinking through what they have been taught vs. what they are finding out on living their own life – i wish everyone would think for themselves a bit more. awesome job on the courage it took to post that
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February 16th, 2012 on 11:25 am
::big exhale!:: whoosh!
your Awakening series has thus far been one of the most exciting personal blog journeys i’ve ever read.
Sending you lots of love and respect! I’m so impressed with how you articulate these open and heartfelt sentiments. Following your blog has assisted in my awakening, in regards to how i’ve let go of judgments regarding individuals who follow a conservative faith.
you are doing some really important work here!
xoxoxo
justine
(a reader and a queer radical feminist lady)
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Jenna Reply:
March 24th, 2012 at 11:08 am
Thank you Justine, this comment meant so much to me.
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February 16th, 2012 on 11:28 am
So well written, Jenna. Thank you for sharing–it’s people like you who remind me to embrace the journey, live in shades of gray because not all things are black and white, and to just live. This is why I’m living the life I’m living–seeking fulfillment of self rather than making everyone else around me see me as though they want to see me.
I’ve recently started opening up about my situation (you know I was married to a man and may now know that I’m seeing a woman), and am sharing some of my own thoughts about homosexuality. If you’re interested (and haven’t already read the post), you can find my specific thoughts here: http://alwaysthetwelves.wordpress.com/2012/02/14/my-opinion-on-the-whole-same-sex-marriage-debate/
Again, thank you. I’m also excited to know that while you may not be comfortable with my chosen relationship, you’re still choosing to accept me. That’s all anyone can ever ask.
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February 16th, 2012 on 11:31 am
I love this, Jenna. It comes across as very sincere and non-judgmental. And I love how you are questioning some of the things that you believed for so long.
You may have read this already, but I thought this post (mainly, the part that’s a letter to the blogger’s son) was very beautiful and speaks to that open-armed love God has for all people.
http://momastery.com/blog/2010/10/14/a-mountain-im-willing-to-die-on/
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Danielle Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 12:46 pm
I loved that article. So beautiful, I cried.
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Kate Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 7:57 pm
Thank you so much for sharing this link. I loved it so much. It moved me to tears.
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Jenna Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 9:11 pm
This is stunningly beautiful. I’m in tears as I type this, it’s so moving (the kind of writing skills I wish I had!)
This paragraph in particular stuck out to me:
Our criteria is that if it doesn’t bring us closer to seeing humanity as one, as connected, if it turns our judgment outward instead of inward, if it doesn’t help us become better lovers of God and others, if it distracts us from remembering what we are really supposed to be doing down here, which is finding God in every human being, serving each other before ourselves, feeding hungry people, comforting the sick and sad, giving up everything we have for others, laying down our lives for our friends . . . then we just assume we don’t understand it yet, we put it on a shelf, and we move on.
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February 16th, 2012 on 11:51 am
“I want to believe in a Christ, in a God, with arms open wide and hearts full, welcoming everyone.”
This makes me want to cry. In a good way.
I might have something more eloquent to say later, but right now I’m just sitting here feeling there’s hope for this world.
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February 16th, 2012 on 12:05 pm
I’m curious to know if you have discussed (or will discuss) this view point with your parents and sister? Has TH agreed with you on the variety of topics you have discussed in your Awakening posts?
How wonderful if you two (and your parents/sister as well) are growing and becoming more open minded together on these topics. I hope they are respectful of your growth and that your new found beliefs don’t cause any strife in your relationships with loved ones or friends.
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Jenna Reply:
March 24th, 2012 at 11:17 am
I did not with my parents and sister. I plan to keep avoiding it as long as possible, I don’t think it’s going to be a productive conversation.
TH would like his views to remain private. Happily it has not been a source of contention for us though.
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February 16th, 2012 on 12:20 pm
This is a topic I struggle with as a Catholic. It’s hard, because once you say you believe homosexual acts (not homosexuality in itself) are a sin, people automatically accuse you of being close-minded, hateful, etc.
There is a specific point at which you “lost” me:
“Why would a God who told us “Men are that they might have joy” deprive so many of his children from one of the greatest joys we can experience during mortality, that of a committed, and yes, sexual, relationship?”
That’s a dangerous question to ask and one I find perhaps a little presumptuous too. Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? I would argue that he does not, but I would also say we cant really know and to try and figure it out is beyond our “pay grade.”
In the same vein, why are there widows and orphans? Why are there wars? Why is there rape? Why are some people born with birth defects? Why did I lose my job? Why did that baby die? Why are some people infertile? I could go on and on.
Life isn’t perfect and never will be. Every one of us will have something we struggle with and our lives will involve sacrifice. It’s not exactly my point, but hey, take a look at the Book of Job!
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Jackie Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 3:00 pm
I see what you are saying, that even if something is natural, that doesn’t make it good.
But I think issues where something happens to you outside of your control – infertility, birth defects, losing a job, dying – those aren’t considered sins even if they are not “good.” Whereas homosexuality is somehow supposed to be something outside of your control and yet still be a sin.
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Marissa C Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 3:40 pm
I guess a better analogy would be someone predisposed to sexual addiction, or something along that line.
Still, I was responding more to the “Why would a God deprive…?” part of Jenna’s question.
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Jackie Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 12:02 pm
I think the differences though is that those things are pathologies, where as homosexuality is not a sickness.
But still, I don’t know if something like acting on a sexual addiction would be a mortal sin. Because there are three requirements – grave nature, full knowledge, and full consent of will. Would some who has a severe addiction or mental illness really be acting in full consent of their will? For example, I dated someone who had an addiction to porn and masturbation, and I think his sin was more in not dealing with it or seeking help than the actual acts.
I had a friend who compared homosexuality to alcoholism, saying even if its something that’s not your fault, it is still a sin. And that made sense to for a while to me, but then when I really started working with alcoholics I realized that was wrong. Alcoholics sin like the rest of us, but they are bound through their addictions. It’s a sickness, a disease, every time they have a beer they aren’t thinking “I am choosing to do this to hurt others.” They are thinking “I need to do this.”
Anyway, I think obviously it’s good and important to help people with those types of addictions to reform because their actions do hurt others. So yes, I think it’s good to “deprive” a child molester of access to children, because their actions have significant and grave consequences. They are from a disease and they should get help.
But, I don’t think that homosexuality is a disease nor is it a choice. But I do question if it is really a moral sin because people are not choosing to act in full consent, they are doing as they were made to do. Yes, there are times that we have to deprive ourself of our natural desires because acting on them at that time/in that place/with that person would be wrong or maybe sinful, but I don’t think homosexuality is wrong to act upon because it doesn’t hurt anyone.
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Jenna Reply:
March 24th, 2012 at 11:23 am
The only conclusion I can come to here, is that God doesn’t make widows, orphans, wars, rape, birth defects, job loss, miscarriage or infertility happen. He isn’t constantly reaching his hands into our lives and swirling the elements around to “test us”. Everything that happens is a product of nature, or a product of the choices of those around us.
Wars happen because men start them. Rape happens because someone violates you. Miscarriage happens because your body didn’t put things together properly. Cancer happens because of where you live or what you ate or because of the way your genes came together (these are just guesses, of course).
When I think about how fortunate I am, it sickens me to think that God would allow me to live such a blessed life while making things hard for the single mom who is dying of cancer with a 6 young children to take care of (this is hypothetical of course). I don’t want to believe that God “made” that happen to either of us. Malcolm Gladwell had it right, I am largely a product of the place where I was born, the time I was born into, and the parents that I have, as well as a few of the choices I have made.
For me, sin is something that hurts someone else (or ourselves). Period. And I can’t think of a single way that a man having consensual committed sex with another man hurts me, or anyone else outside of their relationship.
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February 16th, 2012 on 12:27 pm
I have read your blog for a couple years and have been surprised at your recent posts. Exploring doctrine, studying it out in your mind and coming to your own conclusions is an important part of being a member of any organized religion.
As members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, we believe that prophets speak for God. We believe that they know more than we do and that if we follow them we will be lead to truth.
Of course we do not understand why people are attracted to their same gender. But we have been told what the negative consequences are to individuals, families and societies when the basic family structure is changed.
I’m sure many will read my comment and assume I am closed minded or uneducated. Quite the opposite is true.
What I do know is that I have committed myself to a religion which requires sacrifice and demands faith and obedience. As a reward for those things, I am blessed with the Spirit to guide me and am blessed with forgiveness for my sins. I am 100% sure that this is more valuable than anything else available.
It appears that your followers are relieved and proud of you for disagreeing with the prophets. I disagree with them.
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Virginia Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 1:25 pm
But we have been told what the negative consequences are to individuals, families and societies when the basic family structure is changed.
What are those?
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Stephanie C Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 1:41 pm
I’m curious, too.
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Rachel Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 3:32 pm
http://www.lds.org/family/proclamation?lang=eng
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Virginia Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 3:59 pm
That doesn’t really answer the question. Can YOU, in your own words, articulate what you think those consequences are?
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Rachel Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 5:11 pm
Of course I can articulate what I think the consequences will be and are.
But, my purpose in posting here is not to debate about what I think. Rather, my purpose is to address that we all have a choice. We can choose to follow the counsel of the Prophet or we can choose not to.
We can choose to believe he is lead by God, or we can choose to believe that sometimes he is/sometimes he is wrong/we know better than he and therefore, we are free to disagree without negative consequences.
My choice is to believe he is called of God, directed by God and that the eternal truths he proclaims are, infact, truths not to be doubted by my intellect, but believed through my faith.
I believe The Family: A Proclamation to the World does, in fact, answer the question you asked:
‘Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.’
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Virginia Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 5:51 pm
But nowhere in this article is stated that gay marriage is what will bring about “the disintegration of the family”.
Why would it?
Gay people want their marriages recognized and their families protected by the state. This can only be GOOD for families.
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molly Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 8:41 pm
“But, my purpose in posting here is not to debate about what I think. Rather, my purpose is to address that we all have a choice.”
I agree with you when you share your opinion about choices. I’m not sure if you feel that homosexuality is a “choice” that people make (I do not feel that way, especially when you look at the persecution of homosexual people, teenagers in particular – who would choose to be treated like an outcast if they were just as happy to participate in “normal” behaviors?)
Regardless of how you feel about homosexuality as a sin, I think Jenna is saying that she doesn’t feel like stripping homosexual people of their civil rights is fair treatment. Heterosexual people have the choice to be married & enjoy those legal rights. What is so different about heterosexual people that they shouldn’t have that same choice?
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Ru Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 2:10 pm
Rachel,
I am writing this because I sincerely want to know your answer, not because I am trying to “trap” you in any way.
In 1978, the LDS Church lifted the ban on African-American men holding the priesthood.
If an LDS person in 1977 were to have told you, “I’ve thought about this, and I’ve prayed about this, and I’ve come to the conclusion that the ban on black men having the priesthood is wrong,” would that person also be “disagreeing with the prophets”?
You wrote that you’re blessed to have the Spirit guide your actions. Presumably you aren’t denying that Jenna has the same opportunity. At what point do you think our individual right to personal revelation stops? And if it *always* stops at the point of disagreement with a prophet, where does that leave my 1977 hypothetical LDS person?
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Rachel Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 4:14 pm
Thank you for the considerate way of asking your question.
I define anyone who has an opposing opinion to the official position of the Church (on any topic), as disagreeing with the prophets.
Everyone has the Spirit as their guide. The Spirit guides and directs us within the principles and commandments of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Those principles and commandments are outlined for us and given to us through prophets.
Your hypothetical situation assumes that the Spirit will reveal to me that the teachings of the Prophet are wrong.
I do not believe the Spirit works in opposition to the Prophet.
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Ru Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 4:53 pm
So, to be clear, you are saying that a person in 1977 who declared the ban on black men having the priesthood would be wrong to do so. I find this stance very troubling.
You may not believe that the Spirit “works in opposition” to the Prophet. Neither do I. I do believe that people interpret things differently, including incorrectly, and that much like prophets in the Old and New Testaments, modern prophets are also fallible. Why should a modern prophet be any more perfectly attuned to God’s will than Jonah who disobeyed or Peter who denied Christ? Why would God let Joseph Smith ordain a black man if he was then going to tell Brigham Young not to?
I do not believe in a God that is fickle, that would say in 1977 that black men are not worthy to hold the priesthood, but in 1978 that they are. People are imperfect, God is not. I’m sorry, but the assertion that modern-day prophets are never wrong is factually inaccurate, and I sincerely hope you do not hang too much of your faith on that misconception.
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Rachel Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 5:28 pm
I appreciate your concern about my faith, though it doesn’t sound too sincere
I agree that Prophets make mistakes individually and are not perfect men. My education on this topic has been vast and I am not naive in my position.
But, as a member of the Church, I choose to believe what they teach. I choose to believe that they will not lead the Church astray and that they speak for God.
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Danielle Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 2:20 pm
“As members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, we believe that prophets speak for God. We believe that they know more than we do and that if we follow them we will be lead to truth.”
Um, I don’t think the gospel teaches that the prophets know more than we do. We are all entitled to receive revelation. A prophet has the keys to receive revelation for the church as a whole, but this doesn’t make them more knowledgeable than anyone else. They just have more responsibility. And they can be wrong. That much is clear about prophets in the Old Testament, the New Testament, and in the lives of every prophet that has led the LDS church since the restoration.
It is of course fine to come to the same conclusion as church leaders on any given issue. But one is not necessarily countering God if, after exploring the issue, you feel led to believe differently.
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Rachel Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 4:31 pm
We do believe that Prophets know more than we do, as seers and revelators. We believe that they have the ability to see events that will happen in the future (Christ’s birth, death, resurrection, the destruction of Jerusalem, the building up of Zion and the second coming of Christ, for example).
I disagree with you when you say that the Prophets have been wrong. As indicated above, they have accurately forseen the most important events in all of human history.
We do not believe that the Spirit reveals to us individually that the teachings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ are not true. Rather, we believe as we seek knowledge through the Spirit, the truths of the Gospel will be confirmed to us.
We believe the following regarding prophets:
First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the Standard Works.
Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.
Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or diplomas to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
Sixth: The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture.
Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
Eighth: The Prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter—temporal or spiritual.
Tenth: The prophet may well advise on civic matters.
Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—The highest quorum in the Church.
Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.
http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet?lang=eng&query=prophets
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Alicia Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 4:43 pm
I will agree that we believe those things about the prophet. One important thing you are forgetting, however, is that he is ultimately still a man. He is God’s mouthpiece, not deity itself. Sometimes it is difficult to know what is advice and what is a command, which is why it’s important to study things out in our minds and seek the guidance of the Spirit. To me, that is a part of what it means to sustain them.
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Ru Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 4:58 pm
I must concur with Alicia – we do not believe in the infallibility of prophets. They have, in fact, been wrong before. Does that mean that they are *always* or even *usually wrong*? Certainly not. But the fact is, only Christ is never wrong.
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Rachel Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 5:15 pm
I appreciate both of your comments. We do not believe the Prophet is perfect. But, I do not agree that a Prophet has been wrong in leading the Church. I believe that the Lord is guiding His prophet at all times. This does not mean that I understand all of his teachings, but it does mean that I choose to believe.
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frenchtoast Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 6:38 pm
RE Blacks & Priesthood.
I think “God changed his mind in 1978″ is the wrong way to look at it. Of course God is perfect and doesn’t change. But he does have a PLAN.
All throughout the Bible and BOM God offered different sets of commandments based on what the people were ready for (Law of Moses, Law of Consecration??).
I personally think that it is WE as a church who weren’t ready yet for worthy black males to hold the priesthood. Just look what was going on in our country in the decades leading up to it? Maybe God was waiting for the Civil War and the Civil Rights movements to run their course, and for US to become more tolerant.
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February 16th, 2012 on 12:34 pm
I love this post, Jenna! I’m a Christian, and I agree completely with everything you’ve said here. I believe it is so important for people of all religions to treat people the same regardless of their lifestyle. I also fully believe that my personal beliefs and convictions should play no part in the actual laws of my country or state because not everyone shares my beliefs. It goes against everything I believe in (loving others, not forcing others into my belief system) to say that gay marriage shouldn’t be legal.
As far as whether or not it is a son, I too have gone back and forth over it. I finally came to the conclusion that quite frankly it doesn’t matter what I think. It’s not my place to be judging anyone for their sins, it’s God’s. So what I think is really irrelevant. All I need to know is that I believe that God wanted us to love everyone equally regardless of whether or not they share our personal beliefs
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Brooke Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 1:55 pm
I wish there was a “like” button for this!
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Amanda Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 5:11 pm
That was supposed to be “whether or not it’s a sin,” not “son”. I was typing on my phone!
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February 16th, 2012 on 12:34 pm
I have been working through this for years. I don’t know where I stand on homosexuality being a sin either. It’s hard to reconcile with the plan of salvation. But I also know the terrible situation my friend went through in coming out to his family and friends. I’m proud to live in a state where gay marriage is legal and I helped fight for those rights. I’m also an active LDS member in good standing. I don’t know what it all means in an eternal scheme but I can’t reconcile the thought of God condemning our brothers and sisters to such a tragic life of denying themselves love.
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February 16th, 2012 on 12:35 pm
I loved this post, Jenna. That’s all I want to say.
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February 16th, 2012 on 1:02 pm
Ahh, I just wrote a long comment and it got deleted! Anyway, great job, great post, much respect for putting your journey out here. I appreciate how you have come to realize that you can maintain your own religious and moral beliefs without necessarily imposing them on everyone else. I wish everyone could be so reasonable and open-minded. This series has given me so much respect for you!
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February 16th, 2012 on 1:05 pm
I’m also a active LDS member, and this is a topic that I have thought about a lot. I have served a mission and seen those I taught fall away from the church because of this mindset for homosexuals. I have also seen friends from BYU fight for Prop 8 and fight against Prop 8. Recently two of my closest LDS friends fell away from the church, which also happened at the same time I was dating and thinking about marrying my husband (who is a non-member). It was a time of serious reflection for me to ponder my beliefs. What I really want to say is that I agree with you. I feel basically the same way you do and I feel that we should stop judging others in this world for what they do, feel, believe, etc. We should be loving all of God’s children. With that said, I support homosexual rights and believe that is something I don’t have all the answers to, so I choose not to judge. Thanks for this well written post.
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February 16th, 2012 on 1:07 pm
Jenna, I am so proud of you.
When Prop 8 passed I was furious (FURIOUS!) and so terribly sad. I admit that my opinion on the LDS church sunk with my heart when I got word it was funded heavily by members.
Expressing this viewpoint is bold, courageous, compassionate, and socially responsible. I am so thrilled that you were brave enough to post it.
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Kate Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 11:49 pm
And everything Helena said!
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February 16th, 2012 on 1:19 pm
I loved this post Jenna and really look forward to your Awakening posts.
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February 16th, 2012 on 1:26 pm
I completely agree with you. I used to think very differently about homosexuals, too. My thoughts started changing radically when I got to college and began forming friendships with some gay people. And then, one night while I was out of town, my brother texted me in what I can only imagine was a terrifying experience for him, and told me that he is gay. I immediately told him I love him exactly for who he is and that I will always support him. I think the issue really evolves when it hits much closer to home. I would have to say that getting married has also really changed my view. Why doesn’t everyone deserve to have the dignity of bonding a love and passion by a piece of paper and a ceremony?
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February 16th, 2012 on 1:27 pm
Good post!
This was one of the resources that’s been really helpful for me in further exploring whether the Bible actually condemns homosexuality as a sin (I firmly, firmly believe it doesn’t and think this essay brings up excellent points):
http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian
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Kelly @ The Startup Wife Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 1:31 pm
whoops. wrong link. http://www.soulforce.org/resources/what-science-says-and-doesnt-say-about-homosexuality/
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February 16th, 2012 on 1:51 pm
I haven’t read all the comments. But here’s what my friend Kevin Kloosterman – an LDS Bishop has to say about Homosexuality and I LOVED his talk. He shares a lot of similar ideas as you do Jenna. Bravo.
http://mormonstories.org/?p=2179
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Jenna Reply:
March 24th, 2012 at 11:26 am
Do you know if there has been any fall-out for him because he gave this talk?
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February 16th, 2012 on 1:58 pm
[...] Click here to read about Jenna’s thoughts on homosexuality. I’m so impressed with her writing and moved by her words. [...]
February 16th, 2012 on 1:58 pm
I think about gay and lesbian issues in terms of my children. If my son or daughter is gay or lesbian I would still hope and pray that they find someone they love and form a life with that person, just as I would if they are heterosexual. I want my children to experience a rich life that they are entitled to.
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February 16th, 2012 on 2:01 pm
Another thought I would really love to see you pursue is Sexuality & Reproduction. So many equate marriage with reproduction, and that’s the main argument against homosexuality. But what of all the men and women who are infertile? Does that mean their marriages are now invalid because they cannot produce “natural” children? We all know folks touched by infertility. And I don’t think we would ever condone discriminating against them. But again, total tangent. Just something I would love to see in one of your great Awakening posts!
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Marissa C Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 3:50 pm
Reproduction actually a core part of marriage in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Refusal to have children is grounds for annulment. Just a tidbit of info
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Cassie Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 4:02 pm
Wow. Glad I don’t plan to marry any hardcore Catholics, then. I like being valued for more than my ability or desire to reproduce.
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Jenna Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 4:07 pm
Hi Cassie! I don’t want you to feel like you can’t express your opinion, but I am worried about the discourse here breaking down. Just wanted to say that Marissa is a really nice person (we’ve met in person) who adds a lot of depth to the comment section here on That Wife. Please, please, always feel free to comment, but I don’t want Marissa to feel marginalized or attacked because of her religion of choice (just like I wouldn’t want someone doing that to me because I’m a Mormon!)
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Cassie Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 4:32 pm
I’m sorry, Jenna and Marissa. Amending my statement: no matter what his religion, Mr. Right does not own a stake in my reproductive organs. For one thing, I’m predisposed to postpartum mental health issues (the risk jumps when your neurotransmitters don’t balance right), so childbearing’s a risky affair for me. I also have goals that, due to disability, would need to be delayed if I had children. With CFS, I have to be very careful how much I juggle. Contrary to what feminism says, I cannot actually do it all.
It’s a touchy subject for me, and I’m not always as rational about it as I could be.
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Marissa C Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 7:52 pm
Haha, I’m glad you stepped in Jenna. I admit I saw the response in my inbox and thought, “wow.” Then I looked back at my original comment and realized it really wasn’t a complete thought and could come off in the wrong way.
Here’s a better explanation that makes more sense in the context of this discussion. A Catholic marriage is supposed to embody the “four Fs”Free, Forever, Faithful, and Fruitful (children). Thus a Catholic bride and groom promise to be open to children in their vows. This doesn’t mean one spouse can force the other to have a child (and it works both ways), but it would be grounds for annulment if two people got married in the Catholic Church without understanding what a Catholic marriage truly means. (you cant truly agree to what you don’t understand). So if Catholic pre-marital counseling happens like it should, an engaged couple should understand this before they are married in the Church. Honestly, I don’t think it happens like it should most of the time.
This is one of many reasons the Catholic Church doesn’t allow homosexual marriages.
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Rachel Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 8:29 pm
Hey Marissa! As a fellow Catholic, I just wanted to give you a Theology of the Body shout-out! I taught TOB in college and I want to kudos your comment. Thank you for standing up for our beliefs as well; it’s not always popular, but it’s right.
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Marissa C Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 10:56 pm
Yay for Theology of the Body!
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Cassie Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 8:55 pm
That, I’ll admit, makes more sense and is probably at least partly why couples go through Pre-Cana. Well, couples looking to be married in a Catholic church. Yes, I think it’s good that couples are on the same page in this regard. (Says the woman watching Cristina and Owen, a very secular couple, shouting each other down over this question on “Grey’s”…) Again, I really am sorry for my knee-jerk reaction. I’ll try to put thought between action and reaction in future.
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Jenna Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 9:07 pm
I really hope you don’t feel attacked Cassie! I know Marissa and I both appreciate when others share their honest opinions and views. Thank you for participating with us.
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Cassie Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 9:08 pm
Oh, if anyone went slightly rabid, I did. No worries on my end if none on yours. <3
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Penny Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 5:33 pm
Infertility is not to be equated with refusal to have children. I am infertile. I am not refusing to have children; I physically cannot have children. I know the Catholic Church’s stance on IVF and other ART procedures, so I don’t need an update on that one.
I just wanted to pop in here and say that, while probably not your intention, it’s pretty darn hurtful to see a question about “What about infertility? Is an infertile couple’s marriage invalid?” and see “Refusal to have children is grounds for annulment.”
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Marissa C Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 5:40 pm
No it wasn’t my intention at all. In hindsight, I wish I had posted my comment separately from the original and with more context.
In my mind, infertility, refusal to have children, and a complete biological inability to have children (I’m not talking infertility here…it’s no surprise that two of the same gender cannot produce a child) are all separate issues.
I’m sorry what I posted was hurtful
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Molly P Reply:
February 18th, 2012 at 9:34 pm
That’s interesting. In Judaism, one of a woman’s grounds for divorce is if her husband doesn’t sexually please her. Quite different!
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February 16th, 2012 on 2:06 pm
Jenna, I applaud you for your courage and for your efforts to seek out truth. I pray that you may be guided to Truth, as it really is. As regards your current place in that road of seeking, I offer you my feelings on the matter, and hope that truth is faster coming for us all.
Homosexuality is not a symptom of sin… It IS a sin. And extremely often, it is arrived at through greater and greater depravity. As was the case with a previous co-worker of my husband’s, who admitted to having no homosexual tendencies as a child, but through becoming desensitized by large amounts of pornography, he sought out greater and greater arousal through “unconventional” pornography until he was convinced he was gay. This is one example among millions. The evidence is there for the taking.
God does not create a sinner, and then tell him not to sin. We all come to this earth at a different place along the path to perfection, and it is required of us to move forward along this path, bearing the burdens that mortality inevitably creates. I struggle daily, and even hourly, with a propensity to lose my temper. Some people struggle with laziness or selfishness, or a desire to be violent. Some people are chronically unfaithful, or have tendencies toward pedophilia. We could as easily argue that these sinners were born that way, and that they should be allowed to indulge themselves because they can’t help themselves, and that there should be laws protecting their rights to give in and do whatever they want. No government and no person can give another the right to do what is wrong. I and YOU both know that God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. We are expected to endure to the end, no matter what.
We may not be aware of the conclusions Science has come to regarding homosexuality, but we are aware of the truths that our God has shared with us, and if we doubt that, then, as an LDS, we begin to doubt the very nature of God as an all-knowing creature, and we begin to doubt the line of authority that allows His Prophets to speak on His behalf. He does condemn homosexuality. He has said so, through his prophets, countless times. And, as He is truly omniscient, I have no doubt that science and the natural world irrefutably supports the truths that God has already shared with us. Whether we are currently aware of that evidence or not, does not exempt us from obedience to the Law of God. And, if we are truly seeking for a personal knowledge of that truth, we will receive that same answer.
Marriage was an institution long before government ever existed. Marriage is there to protect and support procreation, and the family, and government’s role is not to define marriage, but to support it. We cannot allow marriage to be re-defined as an institution whose sole purpose is to satisfy sexual desires.
Homosexuality is a guarantee of extinction. Homosexuals cannot pro-create they can only recruit. No one is trying to stop them from doing whatever it is that they do. But the truth that marriage is for the protection and support of the nuclear family, was and is, one of the very bedrock basics of the founding of this country. “Human beings were made for the family, and we should uphold that. It is hard to raise kids right, and it takes a long time. The principles of our country stem from the laws of nature and nature’s God. This word “nature” is full of rich meaning. It comes from the Latin word for birth, so of course the nature of man, and natural rights, must be understood to include the process of begetting and growth by which human beings come to be. This process takes longer, and is more demanding and expensive, than for any or nearly any other creatures. Laws should support that effort, not undermine it.” Larry P. Arnn President, Hillsdale College.
“The Founders never thought liberty to be an open-ended right to do whatever one wanted. They were careful to distinguish “the spirit of liberty from that of licentiousness, cherishing the first, avoiding the last,” as George Washington once phrased it. As Matthew Spalding says in “We Still Hold These Truths, p. 137, “The right to human liberty, necessarily had a sense of control about it, as liberty was understood to mean that liberty which was appropriate for the nature of man. And while human nature made men prone to their passions, that did not mean that liberty was the liberation of the passions to overrule the human mind, like an animal following its instinct. Liberty, properly understood, was an expression of man’s higher nature—of reason over passion, and virtue over vice—the triumph of the “better angels of our nature,” as Lincoln later wrote. In this sense, the Founders’ concept of liberty aligns itself with traditional moral philosophy and theology. George Washington, at his First Inaugural said, “There exists in the economy and course of nature, an indissoluble union between virtue and happiness,” and no nation can prosper that “disregards the external rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained.”
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Melanie Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 3:01 pm
I am not LDS, but has a Prophet never been wrong. Has one Prophet said one thing and another changes their stance on the same issue later?
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Ru Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 4:44 pm
Yes, they have.
I’m not saying that to be argumentative, I’m saying it to be factual. Joseph Smith ordained a black man to the priesthood, Brigham Young banned black men from receiving priesthood ordinances. The ban was not lifted until 1978. During the presidency of Gordon B. Hinckley, he stated that any man who would assert that another man is unworthy of the priesthood due to the color of his skin is unworthy himself. That’s at least two changes right there.
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Jackie Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 3:13 pm
I respect that these are your beliefs, but there really is no evidence for the claims you make. One person who does not recollect homosexual tendencies as a child does not mean homosexuality is not a natural trait. I don’t remember having heterosexual tendencies either.
You say that government does not have the right to define marriage. So why allow it to be defined as only between a man and a woman? But then you say we cannot allow it to be re-defined as an institution that gratifies sexual desires. Marriage is not necessary to gratify sexual desires. There are no gay people who say “I would have sex with another person of the same gender *only* if it was in a legal marriage!” Legalizing marriage will not increase the number of homosexuals.
You also say that homosexuality is a guarantee of extinction because homosexuals only recruit. Yes, theoretically, if the entire world was gay, there would not be babies. But homosexuals have no desire to recruit people to their lifestyle and extinct the world.
Lastly, since you mentioned some political philosophy, are you familiar with John Rawl’s Veil of Ignorance? It stipulates that one should make legal decisions as if they were behind a veil, unaware of their own social position and how they would personally be effected by the ruling. For example, if you asked a redhead “should all redheads be given $1000 every year paid to them by blondes” they would say “yes!” But behind the veil of ignorance, where they did not know the color of the hair, they would say “no!”
In the same way, if you did not know if you were gay or straight, would you really answer “should two people who love and are committed to each other be allowed to marry” would you really say “no?”
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Megan Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 4:09 pm
I have never heard of the Veil of Ignorance– that is a really interesting way to look at decisions. Thanks for sharing that.
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Virginia Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 3:52 pm
And extremely often, it is arrived at through greater and greater depravity. As was the case with a previous co-worker of my husband’s, who admitted to having no homosexual tendencies as a child, but through becoming desensitized by large amounts of pornography, he sought out greater and greater arousal through “unconventional” pornography until he was convinced he was gay. This is one example among millions. The evidence is there for the taking.
I don’t even know where to begin. Maybe I’ll just assure you that I didn’t “arrive at homosexuality” through pornography or any kind of depravity. I simply met a girl and I fell in love.
Are you married? Remember how you felt the first time you looked at your husband? The first time you held his hand? That’s how I felt. There was no “road of depravity” that led you to fall in love with him, or led me to fall in love with her.
I struggle daily, and even hourly, with a propensity to lose my temper. Some people struggle with laziness or selfishness, or a desire to be violent. Some people are chronically unfaithful, or have tendencies toward pedophilia.
But those things have a very clear and immediate negative effect on the world around us, whereas two consenting adults falling in love do not. You can’t seriously think that two people in a loving relationship are on par with laziness, violence and pedophilia.
Marriage was an institution long before government ever existed. Marriage is there to protect and support procreation, and the family, and government’s role is not to define marriage, but to support it. We cannot allow marriage to be re-defined as an institution whose sole purpose is to satisfy sexual desires.
Gay people do not wish to marry simply “to satisfy sexual desires”. They want to marry because they love their partners the same way you love yours. (And yes, marrying for love does include the satisfaction of sexual desires, both in homosexual and heterosexual relationships.)
Marriage is a civil institution. It might also be a religious institution, but you have to remember that many, many people in this world are not religious. You seem to think that gay people want to force your church to recognize their marriages, when in fact they seek recognition FROM THE STATE. They want the CIVIL rights that heterosexual couples enjoy. Civil rights have nothing to do with the church – with any church. It shouldn’t be up to your church if I can get married or not, if I can adopt or not. Those are CIVIL rights. Your church may have authority in your life, and that is a valid choice for you to make. But it should not have authority in the lives of people who don’t belong to it.
Homosexuality is a guarantee of extinction. Homosexuals cannot pro-create they can only recruit.
I’m not sure what you mean by “recruit”, but homosexual couples can certainly procreate, as can infertile couples. And they certainly have no interest in stopping heterosexual couples from procreating.
I get a very strong feeling from your comment that you seem to think of gay people as “others”, strange, depraved people with sinister intentions. Gay people are just like you. They feel about their partners the same way heterosexual people feel about theirs. They want the same things from their relationships. They have the same struggles that you do. And they deserve the same rights and protections from the state.
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Sophia Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 4:04 pm
“I get a very strong feeling from your comment that you seem to think of gay people as “others”, strange, depraved people with sinister intentions. Gay people are just like you. They feel about their partners the same way heterosexual people feel about theirs. They want the same things from their relationships. They have the same struggles that you do.”
This, exactly.
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Sophia Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 3:56 pm
Amy S.- “Some people are chronically unfaithful, or have tendencies toward pedophilia. We could as easily argue that these sinners were born that way, and that they should be allowed to indulge themselves because they can’t help themselves, and that there should be laws protecting their rights to give in and do whatever they want.”
No, actually, we can’t “as easily argue…that they should be allowed to indulge themselves” but that makes no logical sense in the context of this conversation. I never cease to be thunderstruck by such statements. I don’t know why it is so hard for people to see what to me is an obvious difference between adultery/pedophilia and homosexuality: in the former, one is harming and lying to one’s partner and in the latter one is abusing a child who cannot give consent. Homosexuality, between two partners who are both desiring of the relationship and who are of the age of consent, is NOTHING LIKE ADULTERY AND PEDOPHILIA. Full stop.
The argument of “well, if we let gay people get married because they’re ‘born that way’ we’ll have to let 45 year olds rape 3 year old kids” is so patently absurd that I cannot understand how anyone can truly present is as a valid argument.
I was molested as a child, and I can tell you for damn sure that being molested and taken advantage of by a sick individual is a far cry from the loving, mutual respectful relationship that my best friends- gay men- have had with one another for the past five years. It was also a far cry from the loving relationships I myself have had with women. And cheating on one’s spouse is also nothing like wanting to be married to someone of the same sex and devote one’s life to him/her- actually, it’s pretty obvious they’re total opposites in terms of intent and expected outcome. Wanting to cheat on one’s spouse and betray them is pretty much the polar opposite of wanting to marry one’s partner and commit one’s life to them, right?
I understand differences of opinion on this very controversial subject, but if one truly thinks that pedophilia is in the same league as homosexuality then I’m frankly at a loss as to how to respectfully entertain that as a valid perspective in this debate. It seems so clear to me that raping a 3 year old is different from being in love with someone and wanting to share your life with him/her, and it seems to bring home the point that homosexuality is still wrongly distilled down into being nothing more than sex. The only way that one can compare the desires of pedophilia to the desires of homosexuality is if they just view being LGBT as some base outlet for sexual expression, using one another in depraved ways, and that point of view completely ignores the humanity of the love and companionship in mutually consenting homosexual relationships. As the original post said, and as anyone with LGBT friends/family knows, homosexuality is more than just sex- it’s about love and companionship and the way one wants to share one’s life with another person. Those desires are obviously very different from a pedophile scheming up ways to groom young children for abuse, or an unfaithful spouse abusing the trust of his wife and picking up herpes from a one night stand.
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Shanna Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 6:22 pm
Yes, Sophia. Yes. I definitely think there’s a hierarchy among sin, & I’m pretty sure most people do as well. If I covet my neighbor’s job because she can get manicures every week, what do I have to do to repent for that? Probably say a prayer & really try not to do it again. What if I steal $1,000 from her safe while I’m housesitting? Probably more repentance. What if I murder her because I’m so jealous of her life? That’s got to take a lot more repentance, right? On the “scale of how horrible a sin is,” I really don’t think homosexuality will be ranked up there with pedophelia or pornography. So, I NEVER understand it when this stuff gets brought up, or the whole “a sin is a sin is a sin” thing. They’re obviously different because the repentance is different for a lot of things.
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Paula Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 9:38 am
I agree that some sins are more serious than others, but with one important point… To those who know it is a sin/have a testimony of A,B or C, etc.
For example, adultery would be a grievous sin for me (because I have a testimony, I have made covenants in the temple, etc.) However is may mot be as grievous for another because they don’t have my same level of knowledge. They haven’t made the covenants I have, they may have grown up with this as “the norm,” etc. That may sound like I am condoning sin. I don’t condone the sin, but I understand why some people make certain choices based on limited knowledge. I don’t think that understanding and condoning are the same thing.
We will be judged according to our level of knowledge. Since I only know what my level of knowledge is, not someone else’s, I can’t really judge how grievous their sins are or which is more or less serious, when I don’t know what they KNOW (i.e. have a testimony of) and what they don’t.
For example, my cousin has gone away from the LDS church and is doing many things that the majority of the family doesn’t agree with. However, I think that some in my family fail to realize that he may not have had a testimony before he made those choices, and we need to still love him and accept him. I think he has felt the Spirit, but that doesn’t always mean that you “know.” Now, if I were to make those same choices, it would be a longer way back…. As I “fell” further from where I was (what knowledge I had). I hope that makes sense.
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Rachel Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 10:10 pm
Brava, Sophia. I too was molested as a child and I was raped as a teenager. NOTHING about two consenting adults loving each other comes anywhere near those terrible acts committed against someone’s will. Thank you for your very eloquent comment.
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Alicia Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 4:50 pm
“God does not create a sinner, and then tell him boot
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Alicia Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 5:06 pm
Ugh, sorry- I tried to write a reply on my phone.
“God does not create a sinner, and then tell him not to sin.”
Yes, we actually believe that he does.
Mosiah 3:19
“For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord”
Our experience here in mortality is learning how to reconcile our spirits with our bodies. We are here to learn, and have been presented the challenge of improving ourselves. While we are here, we are to experience temptation and learn to conquer it.
1 Corinthians 10:13
“There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”
Saying that God wouldn’t make people this way is, to me, silly, especially in light of what we believe about the meaning of life here on earth. We should have compassion for people who struggle with challenges different than ourselves, not respond with condemnation.
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Lisa Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 8:12 pm
I just want to point out that Mormons view human nature differently from evangelical Christians. In general, Mormons believe that people are innately good. Evangelical Christians believe that people are innately evil.
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K. Jean Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 10:19 pm
Amy, thanks for saying this. I have questioned a lot and pondered this topic for the past couple of years, and this really resonates with how I feel about homosexuality. I appreciate your honesty, and your ability to stand up for what you believe in.
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February 16th, 2012 on 2:57 pm
Jenna I don’t comment very often, but I’ve been loving this series of posts. Good work lady!
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February 16th, 2012 on 3:06 pm
I, too, love this series! I do wonder about your husband’s feeling on a lot of these issues too. Have his ideas changed at all (or were they not as close minded to begin with). Not being LDS, I do wonder how your new found awareness fits into your LDS lifestyle.
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February 16th, 2012 on 3:11 pm
As I have said before, bravo. Thanks for sharing your feelings towards a difficult topic. It takes a lot of guts!
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February 16th, 2012 on 3:12 pm
Hi Jenna!
I appreciate you writing this post, and I wanted to share a bit of my story. My husband has same sex attraction and has for as long as he can remember. He is one of the greatest men I know because he chooses God over the natural man, which he considers his SSA to be a part of. He married me and I consider him to be one of the greatest men I know. Every day he faces natural attractions (and so do I and so does everyone else) that he “clears” in order to stay faithful to our temple marriage. Same Sex Attraction is widely misunderstood, but a common journey that many men and women struggle with. He was 25 when he found men who were just like him. Good christian men who are attracted to men but who wish to live the way God intended them too. My husband attends a “group” with them every other week where they discuss/study this topic further. One of the leaders of the group is Ty Mansfield, author of ” In Quiet Desperation: Understanding The Challenge Of Same-gender Attraction “. It is an incredible book that I have studied for the past year. You could easily insert any struggle where the book mentions Same Sex Attraction because it focuses on the atonement of Jesus Christ. I would highly recommend it. He just published his second book titled, “Voices of Hope: Latter-day Saint Perspectives on Same-Gender Attraction – An Anthology of Gospel Teachings and Personal Essays” Which reads almost like a very high class Chicken soup for the soul. There are stories of heterosexual and homosexual relationships and how the Savior is involved in each of their lives. Again, I highly recommend it.
I don’t know much, but i know that God loves every single one of His children, regardless of their sexuality.
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Rebecca Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 12:32 am
I love Ty’s books as well and I can’t recommend them highly enough. He is truly amazing as is I’m sure your husband as well! I know Ty because he is married to one of my good friends…do you know Danielle? I totally agree with you about how his books can really apply to any struggle. His books have helped me tremendously with the challenges in my life that have nothing at all to do with same gender attraction. I really wish everyone could read what he is written to truly understand a little bit what it is like to have same gender attraction and to feel the strength of someone who has truly turned to God with full purpose of heart.
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Anonymous Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 8:25 am
Rebecca, Danielle is one of my closest friends! What a small world. I’m so glad you feel the same about Ty’s book. Interestingly, my mom uses ty’s book in her trainings to new relief society presidencies (she is the stake relief society president where she lives) and applies it to teaching and loving women. Its incredible!
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February 16th, 2012 on 3:25 pm
I posted before I was finished….I forgot to marry the passion in our marriage! I disagree with your comment about people who have SSA and their inability to feel sexual passion with the opposite gender. My husband and I have real passion in our marriage despite his same sex attraction. I say same sex attraction becuase I feel like homosexuality is acting out with the same gender, and he doesn’t so he doesn’t even refer to himself as that. But yes, the passion is real and it is possible. I believe that God gives each of us struggles so that we can grow and learn and progress. For my husband, it is SSA. For my best friend, it is a reoccuring eating disorder that will probably be with her for the rest of her life. My mom suffers from depression. We all have our bag of crazy, as we say in my family, but each bag is a different color. It makes us who we are and I believe that we are to seek to be like Jesus Christ even through each of our individual struggles.
Whew. I never write like this.
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Jenna Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 3:37 pm
Thank you so much for sharing your story. Your viewpoint isn’t heard very often and I think it’s an integral part of the discussion.
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OnceandAgain Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 4:47 pm
I noted this above but I really feel it’s important for people to take a look at this post by Justin Lee. He describes in heartbreaking narrative the different sides that gay Christians fall onto in the debate over their theology and their identity.
http://rachelheldevans.com/ask-a-gay-christian-response
Justin argues, and I very much agree, that programs designed to convince (or coerce) gay people into same-sex relationships are devastatingly cruel.
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OnceandAgain Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 4:48 pm
Sorry, that should say “convince (or coerce) gay people into opposite-sex relationships.”
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Anonymous Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 8:28 am
I agree that convincing anyone into something they are not ready for or do not want would be cruel. That is not what the programs my husband participates in does. They are purely volunteer and only for those dedicated to what they teach. I know guys who were forced to attend groups/therapy that ended negatively because they were not ready. that would happen for anyone with any struggle.
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Steph Reply:
February 18th, 2012 at 7:38 pm
Thank you Anonymous, for sharing your story here. I just wanted to make a point about the word “struggle” as you use it: I understand that same-sex attraction is a struggle for your husband, but I think it’s important to represent other points of view, for example in the LBGT community; for some the struggle is not the attraction itself, rather the expectations, intolerance, and even occasional hatred toward people who are attracted to members of the same-sex. And others may not classify their sexual orientation as a struggle at all. It depends on many factors. It is my personal view that not all people with SSA were created that way as a burden, God knows the plan for each one of us and doesn’t make mistakes.
Thanks again for sharing though and I think it is wonderful that God has led your husband to a fulfilling relationship.
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Katie Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 5:19 pm
Not to sound trite, but is it possible that your husband is bisexual? We tend to think of sexuality as being binary, when it’s more like a continuum. I know plenty of people, gay AND straight who absolutely would not be able to maintain a sexually passionate relationship with somebody of a sex they’re not attracted to. Imagine being with a woman. Would you be able to maintain that relationship for life? I think suggesting heterosexual marriage for gay people as some sort of possibility is dismissive, and is bound to be disappointing for most partners in the long run.
Is the label SSA limited to LDS people? I have NEVER heard that term used outside of an LDS acquaintance, the 100 Hour Board, and a few other places on the internet. And definitely never by anyone who is gay. To be honest, it rubs me the wrong way. Gay is the accepted term! Though of course your husband is free to identify himself as he pleases.
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Jenna Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 5:31 pm
The reason I almost exclusively used the term homosexual throughout this post is that I’m confused by what term to use and when! Now they have LGBT and I think they added Q. And gay applies to men and women but lesbian only to men? I know I’m opening myself up to ridicule here but I really don’t know and I want to! Is there a primer somewhere? Someone should create an infographic
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Katie Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 5:49 pm
Yes, gay (and homosexual) can be used for men or women, while lesbian is only for gay women. Then there’s bisexual (self-explanatory?), and transgender is for those who identify differently from their “assigned sex”- people who are transgender might be straight, gay, etc. The “Q” is for “queer” (those who identify outside the traditional LGBT identities, or feel that the traditional labels are inadequate, or even oppressive ) and also for “questioning”.
No ridicule, it’s good to know!
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Sara Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 10:27 pm
Of the things people could find you ridicule you about, I hope that your earnest desire to learn won’t be one of them.
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Jenna Reply:
March 23rd, 2012 at 7:40 pm
Thanks Sara. I loved this comment.
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Sara Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 10:27 pm
Of the things people could find to ridicule you about, I hope that your earnest desire to learn won’t be one of them.
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Anonymous Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 9:01 am
The suggestion that my husband is bisexual is new to me. I have never even considered this. Let me explain.
My husband tried dating women for many years. Before and after serving his LDS mission feeling little romance with any of them. Many of his close friends were women, but just friends. He dated one of my good friends quite seriously but ended the relationship because he quite frankly never became aroused around her. Laugh as you will, I was flattered when he told me that I was one of the few women that he had ever been aroused by!
Do I consider him bisexual, most definately not. He is attracted to men, and his wife
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Melanie Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 9:28 am
I’m sorry, but that is the definition of bisexual. Or possibly he is just gay and felt that his religion and culture would not accept him how he is.
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Erin Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 11:34 am
Katie, I love your comments in this discussion and I agree that we (culturally) need to stop looking at sexuality as binary (we don’t look at emotions or cognitive abilities as binary anymore). You are very articulate and I enjoy reading your thoughts.
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Stephanie C Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 1:14 pm
Thank you for this – I Was thinking the exact same thing but didn’t know how to word it so it didn’t come off in the wrong way.
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Marissa Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 7:39 pm
Jenna, This is a topic that I have changed my view point on and am still learning more about how I feel about it. So thank you for bringing it up.
Anonymous, You are the only person, so far, who has mentioned the atonement. Thank you for doing so. We can only make it through this life with the atonement. Whatever our struggle may be, the atonement can bring us comfort and peace and literally change us. This life is hard, and everyone’s struggle is equally hard for them. The atonement makes the impossible, possible. We cannot imagine how it would be to live a lonely, celibate, life, but if you BELIEVE Jesus Christ you will know that the impossible is possible through Him, and not just in the life to come but now.
In this conversation in general, the atonement of Jesus Christ is the part that is not mentioned nearly enough. It is a personal, individual, relationship. Those who use the atonement to help with Homosexuality do not often talk about it, because it is a personal, on-going struggle. So I appreciate you mentioning those books. I would like to learn more about LDS people who struggle with homosexuality yet choose not to act on it no matter how hard that may be.
It also seems like the LGBTQ community disregards those who say they are homosexual but choose not to act on it. Like the comment saying that your husband might be bisexual since he is able to enjoy having sexual relations with you. I think that is unfair to say that if your husband can do that then his feelings of homosexuality must not be as hard to overcome, or as strong, as someone else’s.
Thanks again for your comment and your honesty.
And Jenna, this is a huge topic that you took on. I can tell you have been thinking about it a lot. I do want one thing cleared up, It is not clear to me in your post what you exactly think. Is the act of homosexuality (a woman having sex with a woman and a man having sex with a man) a sin in your mind? Or are you simply saying that homosexuals should be able to marry each other? Saying that homosexuals should not be deprived the companionship that a marriage provides and that everyone should be able to have a healthy sexual relationship leads me to believe that you do not think that the act of homosexuality is a sin or is wrong. Is that correct? I just want to clarify what you were trying to say.
Also, just curious, what is your readership population? LDS vs. other? I’m curious to know who is represented in your comments section. It seems like the people congratulating you on your change of view are mostly non-LDS and that those LDS people who usually comment aren’t. Or are most of your readers non-LDS?
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Katie Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 10:06 pm
“Like the comment saying that your husband might be bisexual since he is able to enjoy having sexual relations with you.”
Sorry, if that isn’t the definition of being bisexual- wanting to have sexual relations with men and enjoying sex with a woman- then I don’t know what is. Perhaps her husband is able to somehow subvert thoughts and channel them in some way without being attracted to any other women, but 99% of the time I can’t imagine a gay person marrying a straight person being healthy for either party.
Even if you find homosexuality a sin, is it necessary to legislate against gay marriage? LDS obviously find drinking alcohol and premarital sex to be sins, but don’t feel the need to create laws against it. Let people lead their own lives. Isn’t free agency an important part of LDS doctrine?
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Katie Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 10:15 pm
Sorry, I also wanted to address the “It also seems like the LGBTQ community disregards those who say they are homosexual but choose not to act on it. ” comment.
I am not a part of that community (not sure if you thought I was), though I am a huge supporter. Not acting on your sexuality might fall under the “Q” part- many people who are asexual identify as queer, if they want to label themselves.
I’m pretty sure nobody would have an issue with someone who chose to remain celibate for ANY reason except for nosy people with nothing better to do but judge people for things that affect them in no way (for the record, I can’t stand when people act like those who wait until marriage are naive morons whose marriage is bound to fail! Mind your own business and don’t be a jerk!). I *would* worry about somebody who wanted to be sexually active, but felt they had to suppress their sexuality for cultural reasons, but that’s their own choice.
The problem I see is when you hold up a marriage of a gay person to a straight person as a desirable model. The writer above’s husband seems to be holding it together, but I have known three marriages in my lifetime that have ended very sadly because one spouse was gay (and hiding it for at least part of the marriage, so I guess that is a slightly different situation- Anonymous, did you know your husband was gay before you were married?). I can’t imagine anybody who would knowingly enter a marriage like that, and I can imagine immensely hurt feelings if that were to come out later on.
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Anonymous Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 8:45 am
My husband was honest with me very early on in our dating relationship and yes, I did knowingly marry into this relationship for many reasons, some that I can’t even begin to explain in a forum like this. I believe in prayer. I believe that God has an individual plan for each of us and that this was part of my plan. I felt very guided while we were dating and I felt like God had prepared me to marry my husband early on in my life. I always had compassion for those who associated as Gay because I never understood how God could give that to someone. But like i’ve mentioned before, He gives us many different trials and struggles and triumphs to build, teach and love us.
I also know of many marriages that don’t work (mixed marriages with one partner having same sex attraction) but most of those marriages/relationships ended becuase of dishonesty with ones self and with ones partner.
Our honesty is actually very funny sometimes. Recently, I asked my husband if he would go see the Vow with me. He said he wanted to but probably wouldn’t becuase he had a crush on Channing Tatum. My reply was, that’s funny…I do too! I love my husband because he knew his boundaries and didn’t want to put himself in a situation that would enhance this attraction. This happens on different levels all the time.
We are open with our families, and most of our friends. They support us, love us and think nothing less of my husband becuase of his Same Sex Attraction.
Unfortunately , there are many relationships like mine that fail. More than those that succeed. But I have faith that as we are honest with each other, with ourselves and with God, that we will live and take part in a very loving, fulfilling marriage for the both of us.
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AmyC83 Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 12:22 pm
I agree with you, but I don’t think it’s necessary to tell Anon what you think her husband is or isn’t and I don’t think you need to worry yourself with her and her husband’s happiness. So often, we advise or school others on what we feel is right, but they get to make their own choices in life. Maybe he really is happy and maybe they’ll have a long a happy life together. Maybe they won’t, but does it matter, really? Even if they use their relationship as an example for others, everyone has the ability to choose the life they want and I think we all need to stop and think about how their lifestyle choices are or aren’t affecting our own lives.
Now, laws are a different story. Laws affect me and my friends and family and I’m all for voicing opinions about those (ie prop 8). The same principle applies: the choices others make regarding their sexual relationships don’t affect me, so why should I limit them or judge them?
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AmyC83 Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 12:24 pm
The “you” in the first sentence was directed toward Katie.
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Virginia Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 11:46 pm
I’m not sure why you took the suggestion that her husband might be bisexual as an insult. Nobody is trying to minimize this man’s struggle – being bisexual doesn’t mean you can just renounce one part of your sexuality and lock it up forever, and everything will be peachy.
According to her comments, her husband is bisexual. He’s attracted to men, and he’s also attracted to her, a woman. He’s attracted to both sexes. So… he’s bisexual.
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Jenna Reply:
March 23rd, 2012 at 7:40 pm
I’m not sure I’m ready to say I think homosexual acts are a sin. I’m still thinking it through.
I would estimate that my readership is about 10% LDS. Interestingly I think that liberal readers actually outnumber conservatives, and that’s not just because of these posts, it’s been that way for a long time.
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Grace Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 9:39 am
Wow, what an interesting perspective. You are a brave woman too: I would never consider marrying someone like your husband, because I would be too paranoid about him choosing homosexuality in the end. I actually think your confidence in him and your bond is really touching (and no, I’m not being facetious here).
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Jessica Carney Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 2:29 pm
Awesome!!! Thanks for sharing your perspective:)
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February 16th, 2012 on 3:28 pm
Keep going, Jenna. Keep thinking–keep praying–keep deciding for yourself. In this way we become people in our own right, able to really believe in the words we say or write. A conviction unexamined is simply not worth holding.
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February 16th, 2012 on 3:36 pm
Jenna — thank you for this beautiful post, and for your openness to listening for God’s voice leading us in new directions!
I grew up in one of the first churches to become fully inclusive of LGBT people, so as a straight ally this issue is very close to my heart… especially having grown up knowing many LGBT people who had been kicked out of faith communities because of their identities.
One of my favorite scriptural thoughts about this issue: in the creation story of Genesis, God creates one thing after the next and pronounces them “good” and “very good.” The first and only thing in that story that God calls “not good” is when God says, “it is not good for the man to be alone.” To me, that says a lot about God’s will for us: that we are made for partnership, and that the wellness and wholeness and growth that come from partnership is the will of God for us. It makes me so sad that so many churches ask LGBT people to live life alone. So thank you for rethinking this, and for sharing so beautifully.
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Jenna Reply:
March 6th, 2012 at 10:04 pm
I have been thinking these same thoughts! How wonderful to know I am not alone. My partnership with my husband is so fulfilling and feels so divine. I understand that there are those who have a harder time finding someone (and I am infinitely grateful that I found the man I did) but having a hard time finding someone is different than being told you just have to live life without any partnership at all!
Thank you so much for sharing your interpretation of the Genesis story. I’ll read it with new eyes next time I look through it.
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February 16th, 2012 on 3:38 pm
Great post Jenna.
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February 16th, 2012 on 4:40 pm
I am in my late 20s. I am not married. I will not share personal, and extremely painful experiences regarding the issue of homosexuality. What I do know, (since we are talking about this in terms of righteousness) is that a life without God, without righteous living, and without an eye on eternity and the expectations of those hoping to live eternally,…is much worse than a life without a partner with whom you may share your emotional, sexual, and familial goals. Do I want all of these things? YES. I do. Sometimes to the point of extreme longing and desire, frustration, and even rage. BUT I. KNOW. absolutely, that the Lord’s expectations for me are that I live a life that is in accordance with the laws of righteousness. It is THERE that I will find true happiness and peace. I do not find misery here. I do not expect the longings and, sometimes, purely sexual desires that arise often, to go away. The Lord does not (if I may speak for the Lord) “CONDEMN” anyone to a life of misery and longing. I do not believe that the desire a man or woman has toward someone of their same gender is any less eruptive and overwhelming than mine are toward someone of my opposite gender. We are sexual creatures. But I have a testimony, after years of researching this, praying about this, screaming to the heavens about this very issue, that God’s plan involves me, it involves you, whoever you are. He is true to his word, and if you live by his word (NO EXCUSES) you may expect Him to live by his. You will find great relief as he promised, great joy, intense pleasure, and even greater love for yourself and those around you. I know this sounds hard. It is. It sucks to be celibate. It just does. Sometimes I can hardly breathe because I long for a companionship with a man, but guess what…I don’t have one. I would rather be single all my life than banish God and try to live a life where he does not exist. What absolute MISERY that would create that would be greater than ANY misery you would find living a life without a partner. I love those who find this burden to be their biggest Goliath. I respect you. I have shed many tears for you. What I know, is that God has done that as well. He loves you more than I could EVER attempt to, and understands on a very individual and personal level, how you feel, why you feel it, and what needs to be done to get you back to Him. THAT is what it’s about. Passing this test and returning to live in His presence where these pains will be no more. If you do not believe that, then there, of course, is not much to be done and your life WILL be difficult, heartwrenching, confusing, madening, and loud. With God in your life, the maker of all things, you will find peace, a quietness in your mind and in your heart, and a direction for good that will bless your life and the lives of all who surround you.
I submit this with the greatest respect and love, and hope that those who read it will feel no guile or malice from me. Only love and understanding and great patience and respect. You are loved and prayed for, and worried about each and every day.
Bless you for the burdens you bear, each and every one of us. May we all turn heavenward in our search for answers, with an understanding heart and an eagerness to live according to God’s principles, EVEN IF THEY ARE DIFFICULT. I pledge to remain chaste. I pledge to learn more about the nature of God. Because the more we know about His nature, the more we understanding our own.
All the love in my heart,
Emily
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Katie Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 5:23 pm
Zero malice, and I’m happy for the peace you’ve found on your journey.
But should you be able to legally prevent other legally consenting adults from marrying? You hold every right to cherish your beliefs as long as they do not infringe upon others’.
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Katie Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 6:04 pm
I’d also like to add that while your view allows you the possibility of finding a man to marry, it precludes gay people from doing the same. Yes, you might not find somebody to marry, but you would be able to if you did.
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Sophia Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 5:34 pm
I agree with Katie. That’s wonderful that you have found such peace and strength in your situation, to each his/her own. But just because you have decided this is the way for you doesn’t mean you get to decide for others. Can you see the difference?
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Rebecca Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 12:44 am
So beautiful. Thank you for sharing that.
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Rebecca Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 12:49 am
Emily, I am divorced and when I read this quote by Jane Eyre it really spoke to me. I thought you might like it too
“I can live alone if self-respect and circumstance require me so to do. I need not sell my soul to buy bliss. I have an inward treasure, born with me, which can keep me alive if all extraneous delights should be withheld; or offered only at a price I cannot afford to give. Reason sits firm and holds the reins, and she will not let the feelings burst away and hurry her to wild chasms. The passions may rage furiously, like true heathens, as they are; and the desires may imagine all sorts of vain things; but judgement still has the last word in every argument, and the casting vote in every decision. Strong wind, earthquake-shock, and fire may pass by, but I shall follow the guiding of that still small voice which interprets the dictates of conscience.” Jane Eyre
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February 16th, 2012 on 5:59 pm
Jenna, I don’t always agree with you, but I think this post is wonderful. As a Catholic with two gay best friends, I have often wondered if the Church’s stance on homosexuality is truly in accordance with the way that God wants us to think and act. I believe in a loving God who creates us in His image, and I also believe that homosexuality is not a choice, so how can I believe that people who are born homosexual are inherently bad, or have a stronger tendency toward sin than those of us who are born heterosexual? I know that Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 talk about homosexuality being detestable and an abomination, but in my heart I can’t reconcile that with my image of and belief in a God that creates each one of us so specifically and lovingly.
As for the gay marriage issue, I believe that church and state should remain separate. Religions should not try to impose their own sense of morality on others by legislating it. It’s not like if the states pass gay marriage laws, authorities will be forcing churches, temples, synagogues, mosques, etc. to perform these unions, so why should they work so diligently to prevent gay marriage from becoming legal?
I realize that everyone feels differently about this issue but I just want to say thanks for clearly illustrating the difficulties some of us have with these religious teachings, even though we are not of the same religion.
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February 16th, 2012 on 6:23 pm
Great post! There is so much I could say but I have to go study!
Yes, correct the same legal reasoning was used in Loving v. Virgina, have I shared this video with you? It’s one of my favorites.
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Emmie Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 6:41 pm
I didnt know it would post the video — but it gets great at minute 14.
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February 16th, 2012 on 6:36 pm
This was beautiful, Jenna. I got goosebumps reading it, and though we don’t know one another, I’m so proud of you for exploring your world and challenging yourself with the hard questions. So few of us have the courage to do so. I wish you light in your continued journey.
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February 16th, 2012 on 7:03 pm
Thank you so much for sharing this journey, Jenna. I’ve said it before with regard to your Awakening posts – and I’ll say it again – you’re doing a very brave thing, and I applaud you for it.
I’m thankful to have grown up in a denominational that encouraged questions. I was not told – this is what YOU believe. My parents shared their personal faiths with me, and I was charged to discover mine. In the years and years of prayers and questions, I circle back to a verse that follows one of the most quoted verses – 1 Corinthians 13:(8) Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. (9) For we know in part and we prophesy in part, (10) but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. (11) When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. (12) For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
(13) And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
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February 16th, 2012 on 7:44 pm
I was apprehensive to read this when I saw it in my reader this morning, but I’m really glad I did. Too often I find that people use their religious beliefs as a way to rationalize their behavior, and I subsequently find myself becoming upset with it. I didn’t grow up with a religion, so perhaps I also need to open my mind to how people who were think. However, I thought this post was very well written and obviously very well thought out.. I really appreciated it.
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February 16th, 2012 on 8:34 pm
Jenna, all you did was clarify that homosexuality is ok, just based off of prejudice. Yet, you never went to the Bible to look for scripture that spoke out against it. I know that we don’t share commom beliefs, but I know all mormons carry around a Holy Bible along with your Book of Mormom. Yet, when you wrote that you “look to a Christ, a God…etc”, that worries me that you don’t believe in Jesus. Yes, it might have been a typo, but you did it twice, making think it was intentional. I recently had this conversation with one of my teenagers and I gave her several verses from the Bible that state that homosexuality is wrong and punishable by death for eternity. Therefore, why are you still praying for God to answer you prayers, when he has already told you how he felt. You can find verses from the old testement through the new testement.
Also, another thing, is members of the mormon church came to my church the other day pleading with us to join them in going to Olympia to voice our objections to legalizing gay marriage. Unfortunately, it did pass.
God intended marriage to be between man and women, that is why he created Adam and Eve in the beginning. Also, if you look at Jesus’ lineage, you will find that they all were heterosexual relationships.
Another example is Sodom and Gomorrah. They were destroyed because of sodemy, which as you know is homosexuals sexual acts. This country, which was founded on Christian beliefs is turning into Sodom and Gomorrah with all the sodemy.
As a professed Christian, it is our job to rise up against this sin and model Godly behavior. If we don’t stand up this this sin, we are no better then them and don’t deserve the salvation Jesus gave to us through his most Holy sacrifice on Calvery.
I have tried to be as respectful in my response, but like you this has been on my mind and I will do anything to speak for God.
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Katie Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 10:20 pm
Nobody will come into your church and force your church to marry gay people.
If these Biblical standards are so important, and marriage is so sacred, why isn’t anybody legislating against premarital sex? Against cheating?
I don’t see why YOUR church gets to be in OUR (all of our, not just the Christian’s) government when I hold absolutely none of your beliefs shared above.
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Katie Reply:
February 16th, 2012 at 10:22 pm
And why doubt her belief in Jesus and God. If you followed her blog at all you’d see there’s no doubt. You just might see them differently.
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Virginia Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 12:13 am
Yet, when you wrote that you “look to a Christ, a God…etc”, that worries me that you don’t believe in Jesus. Yes, it might have been a typo, but you did it twice, making think it was intentional.
I’m not sure I understand what you mean. You’re worried that she doesn’t believe in Jesus because she said “Christ” and not “Jesus”? Or am I misunderstanding you?
I recently had this conversation with one of my teenagers and I gave her several verses from the Bible that state that homosexuality is wrong and punishable by death for eternity.
I sincerely, for yout daughter’s sake, hope you did this umprompted, and not because of some confidence she made with regards to her personal life. Threatening her or him with “death for eternity” will not turn a kid heterosexual. I won’t talk about your family because this is a deeply personal issue and obviously you have very strong feelings about it, but if you’re ever in this situation, please don’t fall back to hell and damnation as your kneejerk response.
God intended marriage to be between man and women, that is why he created Adam and Eve in the beginning.
It is your right to believe this is true, and it is my right to believe this is not true. We can both live in this world. But do you know what’s not right? For me to take away your civil rights (CIVIL, not religious) or for you to take away mine. The church doesn’t get to make the laws – if it did, which church would have priority? Jenna’s church? Your church? My church? What if they say different things?
You have every right to disapprove of gay marriage, in accordance with the principle of whatever church you choose to follow. However, these religious principles should not have any effect in the laws that affect me, because I am not religious. Why are you trying to make me follow the rules of a religion that I don’t follow?
Another example is Sodom and Gomorrah. They were destroyed because of sodemy, which as you know is homosexuals sexual acts. This country, which was founded on Christian beliefs is turning into Sodom and Gomorrah with all the sodemy.
The word you’re looking for is “sodomy”, and why do you care about the private, sexual acts of other people? What somebody does in the bedroom does not affect how they behave outside the bedroom. Policing what other people do in the context of their adult, consensual relationships is utterly pointless, since a particular sex act or lack thereof has zero impact in the outside world.
As a professed Christian, it is our job to rise up against this sin and model Godly behavior. If we don’t stand up this this sin, we are no better then them and don’t deserve the salvation Jesus gave to us through his most Holy sacrifice on Calvery.
I have tried to be as respectful in my response, but like you this has been on my mind and I will do anything to speak for God.
You know, I don’t like your beliefs. I think they are unfounded and harmful. However, I agree with you in this. It is your right to model the behaviour you consider best, and to speak for you God. I would never do anything to take this right from you. I see it as an inherently good thing. But please tell me something. Are you aware that there are many people who follow different religions, or no religion at all, and for whom your God’s laws are irrelevant? Why are you trying to apply them to everyone?
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Heather Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 2:34 pm
As for your first question, I am not saying Christ and Jesus are two different people. Put the way Jenna wrote this is that there are multiple Christ’s and God’s. As an English teacher, each word takes meaning and presents to the reader a message.
As too your second question. I understand that there are many people that don’t believe in God. They have falling lost and I feel sorry for them. As for the other professed Christians in this country, we abide by the same laws (or should) and worship the same God. The Holy Bible is our instruction guide to life and God clearly lined out what was expected of us. It is our duty, as children of God, to follow those laws that have been governing mankind since the beginning of the world.
Too add, I believe it is important for everyone to think about Hell because it is a very real place. My teenagers need to understand this in order to make Godly decisions. Hell is only scary when you are faced with being there because of the sins that are committed.
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Virginia Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 3:49 pm
As for your first question, I am not saying Christ and Jesus are two different people. Put the way Jenna wrote this is that there are multiple Christ’s and God’s. As an English teacher, each word takes meaning and presents to the reader a message.
No, that’s not what Jenna wrote, and as an English teacher (!!) you should know that. If I’m understanding you correctly, you object to the use of the indefinite article before “Christ” and “God”. It’s obvious why she chose those words (forgive me Jenna if I’m misinterpreting you) – obviously, while it’s true there is only one Christ and one God, people believe in different interpretations of the same God. You believe in a God who wants us to hate and will send us to hell if we don’t. Jenna believes in a God that loves us all and wants us to love each other and leave the judging to him. The use of the definite article is correct.
I understand that there are many people that don’t believe in God. They have falling lost and I feel sorry for them. As for the other professed Christians in this country, we abide by the same laws (or should) and worship the same God.
Insults aside, religious people (or Christians, even) do not all abide by the same laws. Jewish people do not follow the same rules as Catholic people, or LDS people. That’s what I meant with my question. Why should YOUR rules be made into law? What about every other religion?
The Holy Bible is our instruction guide to life and God clearly lined out what was expected of us. It is our duty, as children of God, to follow those laws that have been governing mankind since the beginning of the world.
That is YOUR duty, because it’s what you believe and what you have chosen. You can CHOOSE to be Christian and that is perfectly okay. But the millions of people who are not religious should not have to abide by religious laws. You are not required to follow the rules of Buddhism/Judaism/Catholicism, and those people are not required to follow your rules.
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Alisha Reply:
February 24th, 2012 at 5:04 am
For an English teacher, your spelling and grammar suck. Just sayin’.
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Trevor Reply:
February 22nd, 2012 at 12:35 am
First off, thank you, Virginia. You have articulated much of what I believe needed to be said regarding this topic and the inconsistencies found in many of the posts. Next, Heather, as an English teacher myself, I hope that you realize that as a public school teacher (and I’m making an assumption here that you are) it is not your responsibility to dispense any religious advice to your students. It is against the law. Virginia has stated clearly the separation of church and state and I can only echo that now. You are welcome to your beliefs, but religious instruction has no place in a public school–ever. I am also assuming that when you mention “your teenagers,” you are speaking of your students. Forgive me if either of my assumptions are not correct, but I am truly stunned to hear that you would tell your student such things, especially given the staggering increase in bullying in schools, specifically related to LBGT youth. Regardless of what you believe, as a teacher, you must be open to your students’ views and beliefs and encourage them to discover their own paths.
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Michelle Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 9:58 am
Comments like this from Heather actually make me happy that I do not follow any religious beliefs. Everything she wrote sounds awful. I apologize for being blunt but really, I don’t understand this way of thinking.
A person is born and as they grow older they realize that they are attracted to the same sex. Just as I grew up to realize that I was attracted to the opposite sex. I dated men and am now married to man. I just don’t understand how anyone can be upset or preach against an individual person LOVING another person. It is how they feel deep down inside. I would hate for someone to say to me “You are attracted to men? I feel that is wrong and you are going to be banished to hell because of that.” I wouldn’t want it done to me so I sure as heck couldn’t say it to other people.
I understand that your religion and your Bible tells you that homosexuality is wrong. But are you not allowed to think beyond that? To be completely honest, Jenna is the last person I would think would have this change of heart. No offense to Jenna. She just is very strong willed in her beliefs. But the fact that she has come around to seeing that being gay is simply one person loving another person gives me hope that more people will figure that out….someday.
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Stephanie C Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 1:25 pm
Posts like this really dishearten me. I feel like I should just put it out there that there are many Christians out there who don’t believe like this. It’s not so cut and dry. Leviticus also lays out laws that we don’t follow anymore and wouldn’t think about following. That’s why (as a Christian) it’s hard for me to say it’s black and white and we know for a fact that that law still holds.
It’s also unfortunate when people use that sort of language to condemn a group of people. We don’t know people’s hearts and to say we know the mind of God is extremely presumptuous.
I’m also a Christian who doesn’t believe in holding others in this country to my church’s standards or beliefs and I know many people who feel the same way.
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Michelle Reply:
February 19th, 2012 at 10:23 am
You are completely correct. I apologize for my blanket statement. I think the previous comment (and many others on this thread) told such a harsh story that it disheartened me! I am happy to know many people who follow the word of God but also question and hold their own beliefs. I also know many people who can’t think for themselves and follow the word without really thinking of the human side of things.
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February 16th, 2012 on 9:11 pm
I was really happy to hear your ideas on this issue. What I like the most about your viewpoint is that, while you are still unsure how you feel about homosexuality in a moral context, you recognize the unfair discrimination of anti-gay marriage laws.
Marriage is a civil right and no one should be discriminated against due to their sexual orientation. I have not heard any reasoning/viewpoint that makes logical sense to the contrary. Regardless of religious views, homosexuality is not illegal and should not stop someone from getting married. I equate the statement of “Gays should not to married” to “Non-religious people should not be married” or “Inter-racial couples should not be married” or “Couples with vast age differences should not be married”. None of those qualifiers has anything to do with the legal rights of marriage.
I honestly do not care if people think homosexuality is a sin or on par with any number of atrocious acts (although I certainly do not agree), but I do care when people impose their own beliefs on others in a way that degrades their quality of life.
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Virginia Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 12:23 am
I’m with you – at this point I don’t even care if people think it’s a sin. People are free to believe whatever they want to believe. But there is (or there SHOULD be) a huge distance from religious belief to law.
It’s somewhat of a shock to me that some people still need to be explained that just because their church doesn’t like something, it doesn’t mean it should be made illegal. You don’t get to take away my civil rights just because you find my private acts distasteful.
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February 16th, 2012 on 10:29 pm
I’ve been commenting on other comments on your post, and have yet to leave my own.
Your personal insights have been very interesting to me. It reminds me of when I went to college and started forming philosophical and political beliefs that were almost completely different from when I was in high school; very exciting, but a bit overwhelming at times. I’m not religious, but I think it’s important for each of us to carefully contemplate our roles here on earth and our impact on others. I imagine this must be difficult with the layer of your religion on top of it, and while knowing that others will judge you. Good on you! So far, my mid twenties have been a hugely defining period in my life.
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Kira Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 12:22 pm
Thank you for all of your comments, Katie. I’m reading through everything now in tears – I guess I grew up and live in something of a liberal “bubble,” it’s so hard for me to believe that there are still people in this world who believe these things. The LGBT community should be grateful to have allies like you speaking out on their behalf.
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February 17th, 2012 on 12:23 am
You TOTALLY need to read Ty Mansfield’s books…. ‘In Quiet Desperation’ and the one that just barely came out, ‘Voices of Hope’. They are AMAZING. He is a good friend of mine and he wrote these books from the perspective of an active LDS man who has struggled with same gender attraction. Ty is one of the most courageous, inspiring people you will ever encounter.
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Lizzie Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 1:17 am
And, for the record: Ty Mansfield has overcome his struggles, was sealed to a beautiful woman and has a precious baby boy!!
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Rebecca Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 11:48 am
Danielle is one of my dear friends:) that’s how I know Ty:)
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Sophia Reply:
February 19th, 2012 at 6:13 pm
With all due respect: I think that, if a person with SSA (I’m using your terminology here) does not *want* to engage in same sex relationships, and *wants to* “overcome” (again, your wording, I disagree with that negative connotation) that attraction, I support the right to do as one pleases. I wish nothing but the best for those who choose that path, and I’m sure it’s hard.
However. And it’s a BIG however…
My problem comes when people try and extrapolate those well publicized, positive experiences and say “See! It CAN be overcome and gay people aren’t really ever gong to be happy until they’re in a straight relationship!” That’s when I start getting upset. It is fine if this man, Ty Mansfield, did not want to act on his SSA, wanted to “overcome” his SSA, and is now in love with his wife and has a kid. But that does not prove *anything* about the desires of gay people as a whole. There are just as many stories of gay people getting married and then leaving their marriages and spouses behind because they couldn’t live what they felt like was “a lie” anymore.
I’m not saying that is what you are doing/saying, but unfortunately every time I’ve been told of these “success stories” of people with SSA having great heterosexual relationships the subtext is that “if more people just tried harder they would be straight and happy, too!” And this, of course, undermines the millions of gay people who *have tried*, and who have never been happier since coming out and leaving behind the stifling expectations of being heterosexual.
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Christie Reply:
February 19th, 2012 at 9:48 pm
YES! Thank you, Sophia. This is exactly what I was thinking, but was too lazy to word intelligibly.
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Jenna Reply:
March 23rd, 2012 at 12:42 am
I think you are exactly right here. This is a dangerous area to move into because it does seem to suggest that if someone just works hard enough that this is a valid life choice for them.
I think it’s great that this particular couple has found something that is fulfilling for them. We don’t need to deny rights for everyone else because of one example of success in this area though.
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February 17th, 2012 on 12:58 am
Hey Jenna, This comment is related to the overall Awakening series…so I actually came across this blog post from clicking on something you had pinned on Pinterest…have you read this?
http://ifeellikeschrodingerscat.blogspot.com/2012/01/leaving-lds-cult-of-false-expectations.html
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Jenna Reply:
March 23rd, 2012 at 7:44 pm
I hadn’t seen that, but I am obsessed with it.
“The church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints.”
Sadly, I feel like my experience has been a lot like Carrie’s. http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/a-mormon-church-in-need-of-reform/2012/01/27/gIQA3s44aQ_story.html. In fact, I recently had one of my closest friends tell me I should leave the Church and stop calling myself a Mormon because of my current questions and thoughts.
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February 17th, 2012 on 6:51 am
[...] favorites that had me nodding, clapping, cheering, or spiralling into deep thought this week: from Jenna. from Rachel. from Miz. [<-that's the post that inspired me to adopt #2] from Tracy. from Ashley [...]
February 17th, 2012 on 9:35 am
Other people have said this already, but I think this is a really brave post (overused as that word is in regards to blogging). I admire your gutsiness in posting this when it goes counter to some of your church’s teachings (or at least commonly accepted norms). Good for you for being honest and real!
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February 17th, 2012 on 9:40 am
Great post. I said more yesterday, but my computer ate my post and I don’t have time to write more today.
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February 17th, 2012 on 9:43 am
My beautiful Anonymous told me so much about this post that I had to get on here and read it. I really do love her.
As she said previously, I have same-sex attraction. I do. It’s not something that I chose, but there are definitely factors and influences that I can see in my life that have contributed to this (whether you want to believe it’s nurture or nature, that’s how it is for me.) While I recognize that these feelings are real, there’s something more important to me- The Gospel of Jesus Christ.
I have a burning testimony of the Atonement and it gets me through the day. I wasn’t brainwashed. I wasn’t forced to read anything. I didn’t choose this church because my parents wanted me to do so. I decided at one point in my life that I needed to find God, wherever he was. And if He was in another church, I was willing to leave this one to find Him. I had already read the New Testament at this point and believed it to be true. I decided the real way to find out if the LDS Church was true or not was to really read and study the Book of Mormon. I did that, on my own and with real intent. It took a lot of time and effort and prayer. But like I said, if I got a message that the Book of Mormon wasn’t true as I had been told by friends and family, I was going to leave the church and find God wherever he was. It was that important to me. I did, in fact, receive a strong testimony of the veracity of the Book of Mormon and clearly remember those powerful feelings of love and strength and care. They changed me forever, and for the first time I really felt the Atonement of Christ have an impact on me. People would see me and tell me I was glowing. I was happy and whole.
This new light that I felt was so much more than I had ever dreamed of. The darkness and loneliness that I had previously felt was swept away. This was 8 years ago for me. I served a worthy mission for the LDS Church and did so because of the testimony that I had gained. It was my decision.
It was also my decision to live according to the Gospel that I believe in. The Bible condemns the acts of Homosexuality as does the LDS Church. But you can’t judge somebody because they sin differently than you do. Christ-like love is the only way to understanding.
Have the feeling resurfaced at different points in my life? Absolutely. Have I acted on these feelings since the time I gained a testimony? Thankfully, no. Figuring out how to reconcile these feelings, which are really in stark contrast to the testimony that I hold dear is something that I have had an internal battle for years now. The only thing I knew was that my testimony was real, and I felt happier living according to it. Living against that testimony brought back those feelings of sadness, loneliness, and sorrow. I’ve learned all kinds of things through this journey. And I’m so happy to have the most perfect wife for me, with whom I can laugh, cry, and love more than I ever knew before I met her.
Do I suppress my feelings? No. I don’t. I try to work through them, and work to form healthy relationships with men and women that are constructive and good for me and others.
Am I lying to myself? No. I’m not. I have had some incredible moments of self-reflection where I have made these decisions based on what I knew to be true and what I wanted.
I have learned to reconcile these feelings with the testimony of the Atonement that means so much to me. And that’s all I ever really wanted. The feelings are not gone, but they don’t rule me the way they used to. I am no longer a slave that man. It was an answer to my prayers when I learned that I could talk to my close friends about this and find ways to work through this. Heavenly Father answered my prayers in every way I ever dreamed and more. He gave me the best woman I have ever met, a woman that I fell head over heals in love with after only a short time. We are married in the temple, and I live according to those covenants and am so happy that I can.
Long story short: I am a man with SSA. I have a testimony. I am married to an amazing woman. And I am really, really, really happy.
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Jenna Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 10:44 am
Thank you so much for contributing your story to the discussion here. I think you add something really beautiful and necessary to the discussion and I’ve enjoyed taking in the things you and your wife have shared and attempt to process them with all of the other things I know.
I hope that you and your wife haven’t felt attacked or criticized in the comments section here. I’ve been watching closely to make sure that doesn’t happen, and please do let me know if you are uncomfortable with the things that are said to you. I guess I feel like you are a minority that needs to be able to speak up without feeling attacked, and I want to foster that environment for you. You are adding something very critical to this discourse and again, I am very grateful for it.
It sounds like you have a very beautiful and open relationship, something I share with my own husband (though same sex attraction is not something either of us deal with, we of course have other struggles that we work through together).
Much love and best wishes to you.
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Jessica Reply:
February 19th, 2012 at 1:08 pm
Anonymous’s Husband – thank you so much for adding your voice to this discussion. What a beautiful commitment you have made.
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Erin Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 11:23 am
I have never heard a story like this before. I assumed it existed, but I certainly stereotyped it as being an unhappy situation. I’m really glad that you found your happiness. Thank you for sharing.
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AmyC83 Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 12:33 pm
Yes! “stereotyped it as being an unhappy situation” – thank you for putting that into words!
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February 17th, 2012 on 9:58 am
Jenna, I think this post is very interesting and I’ve enjoyed reading the comments (although also disturbed at how hateful and ignorant people are). I have one small comment that surrounds your word choice.
Back in the day, “homosexual” used to be accepted and politically correct way of describing the sexual orientation of those who identified as either Gay or Lesbian. However, in the scientific community and in communities that are more progressive in terms of their acceptance of LGB peoples, the term has really fallen out of favor and it is much more accepted to just use the term “gay” or “lesbian” or “bisexual.” Honestly, most current material written on the topic that uses the term “homosexual” is usually pretty anti-LGBT.
It is a small point and I am bringing it up with out judgement
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Jenna Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 10:48 am
I actually talked about this above: http://thatwifeblog.com/2012/02/the-awakening-homosexuality/comment-page-2/#comment-204838
I worried that if I used gay or lesbian that it would be exclusive somehow, but I also can see how homosexual excludes queer and bisexual. I guess LGBTQ is the way to go?
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Married in Chicago Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 11:57 am
oops! and here I thought I was adding something new to the discussion
haha. Although, I do think my point is slightly different in that I was trying to say that the term “homosexual” often has an insidious heterosexist attitude attached to it. Similarly, how we construct our sentences can either be empowering or dehumanizing. There is a difference between saying “a homosexual man” versus “a man who is gay.”
Anyhoo, in my humble opinion, I think you can use whatever portion of the LGBTQ acronym you are actually talking about
Often people use the LGBTQ acronym blindly, and end up lumping many diverse peoples into one big group.
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that in your post you were mainly talking about individuals who are in same sex relationships (and not just those with same sex attraction). People in same sex relationships may identify as a number of different things, just like those in opposite sex relationships may identify in a number of different ways.
Anyhoo, thanks for responding!
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Jackie Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 12:19 pm
I think that there can be a negative connotation with “homosexual,” but I think it is still fairly subtle. I guess it’s tough because the opposite would be “heterosexual” and that’s not considered negative. But then again, the opposite of “Black” would be “White” and while the latter is not considered negative, the former can be sometimes. I started using “African-American” and Caucasian in my papers because according to style books if you capitalize Black you have to capitalize White. And “White” just made me feel like I was writing for the Klan or something, haha. But then again “African American” isn’t always accurate. What if they are a Canadian citizen? Or from Haiti?
I think some people look at arguments like that and say “ugh, people are being to PC.” But I think it’s important to consider people’s feelings. Like I never would have considered calling someone “disabled” an insult until I got diagnosed with a disability and realized how much more affirming it felt to say “I have a disability” v. “I am disabled.” So I applaud you both for thinking about these things!
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Trevor Reply:
February 22nd, 2012 at 12:50 am
Jenna,
These are my own feelings, but I think it’s important to use these nouns denoting identity as adjectives. For example, in place of “blacks,” saying “black men and women” or “black individuals.” Semantically, it places the focus back on the person, reminding us that we are indeed people and not just a label. We are more than any of these words hope to describe. By merely saying “homosexuals” you are, in a sense, subsuming an entire person’s identity under their sexual orientation. Just my two cents.
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Jenna Reply:
February 22nd, 2012 at 8:44 am
Thanks Trev. I talked about this extensively with Jackie (above) before I put the post up, and she helped me be more aware of how the things I say can be offensive, but I still have work to do.
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Virginia Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 4:03 pm
I think it chiefly has to do with who uses what terms more frequently. If I see the word “homosexual” in a headline, I assume it’s going to be negative. “Gay” can generally go both ways and “LGBT” is almost never used in a derogatory manner.
I was talking about this to a Jewish friend and she said that it’s similar with “Jew” and “Jewish” – that none of the terms is inherently negative, but antisemitic people tend to use “Jew” almost exclusively. (Which may not be everyone’s experience and doesn’t mean that you’re antisemitic if you use the word “Jew”).
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Married in Chicago Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 8:48 pm
Yes! As a Jewish woman, I have the exact same feelings about Jew versus Jewish!
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February 17th, 2012 on 11:17 am
I am tearing up reading through these comments and the thoughtful discussion your post created.
First, as a dissenting commenter several years ago on one of your first posts on this topic, I am absolutely elated that you now support gay marriage. As a Cali resident and campaigner against prop-8, one of the main things the different pro-rights movements would talk about was how do we respectfully help people come to a different conclusion than the one they’ve been raised with. They encouraged us to talk to our friends and relatives who were against same-sex marriage to start a dialogue that may one day lead to them feeling differently. A part of me believed that it would be impossible for people to change their minds. You have made me more optimistic about humanity.
A lot of people are afraid to be introspective. I know that I am. It is hard to challenge the things that you’ve believed for a long time, things that those closest to you and your church believe. I am constantly impressed by your willingness to be honest with yourself and try to be the best person you can be – you truly inspire me and make me want to be a better person.
And finally, I love the dialogue that you create on this blog. I have learned so much just in the past 30 minutes from reading the fascinating dialogue in the comments section. Thank you for creating a safe place where people of various backgrounds and opinions can get together and discuss difficult topics, educate each other, and better themselves.
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February 17th, 2012 on 11:39 am
Jenna, I’ve really enjoyed these posts and the discourse they have sparked. There have been some very thoughtful and interesting discussions. I just think your post was beautifully written and brave. I admit your views on gays and marriage in the past have really turned me off.
As an Episcopal growing up in a liberal household, I’ve broken bread with gay families since I could walk. I babysat for a lesbian couple (their daughter actually came out of a heterosexual marriage one of the women had prior to their relationship.) I’ve seen wonderful children grow out of loving gay partnerships that were often much healthier and stabler than my closest friends’ parents’ marriages.
I believe strongly in a separation of church and state, freedom of religion and that we are all created equal. I’ve just never had trouble reconciling these things.
I respect the fact that everyone in this country, religious or not, has a right to their own beliefs systems. I don’t have to agree with those beliefs, such as the idea that homosexuality is wrong, but they have that right to hold that belief. It just should not be imposed upon others.
I hope this country learns to separate those things and truly extends rights to all. I just have trouble understanding how a loving, supportive marriage between two women threatens families or “the institution.”
Thanks for a thought provoking discussion.
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February 17th, 2012 on 11:49 am
I’m surprised no one has mentioned the book of Romans. The entire book, not select verses to support one’s personal view. It is a complete work on the issue of salvation, and every Christian should read it, if not KNOW it. I cannot read it and judge another persons sin because my view becomes full of my own sins. Sexual depravity is anything outside of marriage between a man and a woman (cheating on your spouse, premarital sex, the list of sexualities our society has conjured up to excuse sin). I carry my share and can’t judge other’s. Salvation is by repentance (turning away from sin) and picking up our own cross and following Christ. That is the only way. God has told us what sin is, and it doesn’t change just because we dress it up differently or call it by another name. There is no “spectrum”. The truth is that we are all sinful, and we NEED God and Christ, and unless we wholly acknowledge that, there is no salvation. That is the beauty of Christ’s sacrifice, God’s gift to us, that NO ONE deserves salvation, but that He offers it if we HUMBLE ourselves, turn from whatever sins we struggle with daily and look toward Him. Society accepting sexual depravity isn’t going to make it righteous behavior, it’s only going to make it easier for people to fool themselves and to live in that sin.
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Jackie Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 12:23 pm
Here is an alternative explanation of that verse you are referencing:
Romans 1:27 mentions men having sex with men. But the terms used to describe it are “dishonorable” and “shameless.” These refer deliberately to social disapproval, not to ethical condemnation. Moreover, according to Paul’s popular usage, different from the technical Stoic philosophy of the day, para physin (“unnatural”) should be translated “atypical” or “beyond the ordinary.” It bears no reference to natural law. And it can imply no ethical condemnation because in 11:24 God is said to act para physin. Paul sees gay sex as an impurity (1:24), just like uncircumcision or eating forbidden foods. He mentions it to make a main point of his letter, that the purity requirements of the Jewish Law are not relevant in Christ Jesus (14:14). See L. William Countryman, Dirt, Greed, and Sex.
From http://www.dignityusa.com
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Anna Reply:
February 18th, 2012 at 6:22 pm
I am not clear if you wrote this or if you copy and pasted someone else’s thoughts. Let me begin by saying that I am not familiar with the author you referenced, and follow that up with saying that it doesn’t matter who he is or what he says in comparison to what Almighty God has said through His Word.
I agree that the main purpose of Paul’s letter to the Romans is that he is combatting all the legalism that is still confounding the early Church. However, it is to clarify and enforce to the Church that Christians are no longer bound to Jewish law because Jesus paid the price for not only Jews, but Gentiles as well. Understand that this is why I recommended Romans be read in it’s entirety.
Clearly, the opinion you referenced is flawed, because Countryman does not quote the verse you brought up correctly. Paul states that homosexual behavior is “shameful”. Also, “unnatural” relations does not only refer to societally “atypical” sexual relations or homosexuality, it refers to sexual behavior outside of heterosexual relations which naturally procreate and/or defile the covenant of marriage. No other sexual relation can naturally (without medical interference) procreate. Therefore it is outside the will of God to engage in any sexual relation with another outside of marriage.
Paul is warning us against repeating history. More importantly, this is not the only sin that Paul warns against. He also mentions that humans have and will invent ways of sinning and justifying their sin. Obviously, homosexuality is acceptable in our society by many and increasingly more, but legalizing gay marriage is not going to make it right, which is the lie that our society are so easily accepting. God is not bound to our laws, we are bound to His.
Romans 1:18-32
God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Please read Romans in its entirety, because it is awesomely hopeful. We are not condemned if we accept God’s Gift and repent.
Romans 8
Life Through the Spirit
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you.
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.[f] And by him we cry, “Abba,[g] Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Present Suffering and Future Glory
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
More Than Conquerors
31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”[j]
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[k] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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Sophia Reply:
February 19th, 2012 at 6:30 pm
Just a thought, Anna. It’s kind of dismissive and rude to say this “I am not clear if you wrote this or if you copy and pasted someone else’s thoughts. Let me begin by saying that I am not familiar with the author you referenced, and follow that up with saying that it doesn’t matter who he is or what he says in comparison to what Almighty God has said through His Word” because it shows that you did not take a few seconds to click on the link that Jackie provided. You say that you’re not sure if she copied and pasted (in a kind of snarky way, might I add) but a) you’d know that if checked the link she provided which seemed like a reference and b) you copied and pasted quite a lot in your comment as well.
It takes some brass tacks to not fully read/give respect to Jackie’s comment, then blithely say it doesn’t matter anyway, and then post the extremely long comment above with any expectation of it being well received.
When you’re sincerely trying to engage in a mutually respectful debate, you just don’t act that way. It’s rude and condescending, and sounds like you’re just barging on through and drowning someone else out without even knowing *what* you’re drowning out since you didn’t take the time to read her comment and the link she provided. You’re arguing into the wind, at this point. And it’s not very effective.
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Anna Reply:
February 20th, 2012 at 9:35 am
I didn’t look at the link Jackie provided? Really?
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Sophia Reply:
February 20th, 2012 at 11:37 am
I apologize if I made a wrong assumption, but honestly it didn’t seem like you did from the way you worded your comment and how dismissive you were about what Jackie had said. It just came off as though you saw that she was referencing something other than the Bible, so you didn’t care what she said/didn’t care to see what she was referencing- you said as much, when you said it doesn’t matter what the author said because it’s not the Bible. That’s just the way I read your comment, but I realize tone doesn’t come across well in type. Sorry if I misread.
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Anna Reply:
February 20th, 2012 at 6:48 pm
I can see how it might read as dismissive, especially depending on one’s position. I was responding to Jackie, without considering how others would read my tone. What I mean is, Jackie referenced the argument of a former priest who left the priesthood because of his homosexuality. Jackie knows this and does not need me to clarify. Although, I realize now that I probably should have for the sake of other readers. I felt that this man’s motives should be taken into consideration, especially since he was taking one verse out of an entire book of the Bible, and then misquoting it to defend his position. That is why I said it doesn’t matter what his defense of homosexuality is, because God has already pointed out not only that what he is defending is sin, but also that humans would make excuses and justify their sin. We are all guilty of this, trying to justify our actions even when they might be wrong, which is why I love the book of Romans. It reminds me that we can’t judge one another, but it also reminds me that if we love one another we should not enable each other’s sins.
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February 17th, 2012 on 11:59 am
Here is a look at the Catholic reasoning that homosexuality is wrong, and from reading the comments, I think it refutes some of the questions/reasons people have brought up.
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/homosexuality
I do not believe in homosexual unions. Just as sex outside of marriage is a sin, so are homosexual acts. Of course we are all sinners, and have temptations of many kinds in our lives, but the pervasiveness of homosexuality in our culture and around the world is truely a threat to society and family. One reason I have always admired the Mormom faith is their strong stance on the importance of marriage (between man and woman) and family. I am dissapointed to see Jenna move away from these beliefs.
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Jackie Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 12:21 pm
Here is a look at Catholic reasoning that homosexuality is not wrong: http://www.dignityusa.org/faq.html
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Hilary Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 2:15 pm
I think both articles make a lot of the same points (i.e. to have same sex attraction is not a sin, but lust or comitting homosexual acts is). However, I will say that you can find Catholics justifing most things that the Church teaches aganist (just look at contraception). Seeing that he is a gay former preist, I would expect his view to be pushing the limit of Church teaching and trying to justify their lifestyle as ok, when the Church is clear that homosexuals should not marry and should not engage in sexual acts. Just as hetrosexuals should not engage in sex outside of marriage.
If we go straight to the Catechism:
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection
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Anna Reply:
February 20th, 2012 at 9:37 am
Thank you Hilary!
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February 17th, 2012 on 12:01 pm
This is a great and well written (I wouldn’t expect anything less from you) post. Even reading through the comments has been very educational. I admire you and I’m proud of your for writing about this and sharing how your own view has changed. Thank you for sharing
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February 17th, 2012 on 12:31 pm
If I may ask in the most respectful way possible: to the people believing that homosexuality is a sin – it seems that you’re referring to “homosexuality” as the act of sex with a person on the same sex, rather than the feelings of desire towards a person of the same sex. If a person does not act upon their feelings, in your beliefs, is that not a sin?
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Amy Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 7:10 pm
That is what I was raised to believe (non-denom. Bible church). The feelings of desire towards a person of the same sex were the result of human sinful nature. Acting on that was the actual sin…giving into temptation, giving into the desires of your sinful nature. Clearly, that’s not an LDS perspective as they don’t believe in that in “sinful nature.”
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Sophia Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 10:45 pm
Actually, what you stated is the current LDS position on LGBTQ people in their membership. Having the desires is not a sin. Acting on them is.
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Amy Reply:
February 18th, 2012 at 7:37 am
I see what you’re saying, Sophia. I was thinking that LDS wouldn’t chalk it up to “sinful nature.” Since they don’t believe in an inherhently sinful nature, do they just consider the desires altogether being tempted by the enemy/Satan, as well as acting on them?
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Alicia Reply:
February 18th, 2012 at 1:29 pm
I would like to refute that, because I learned while growing up in the LDS church that temptation comes from both Satan and what we call the “natural man.”
First, we believe that the soul consists of both a spirit and a body. We believe that our main purpose in being on Earth is to receive a physical body, and that it is the addition of that body that allows us to experience joy, pain, happiness, pleasure, sickness, and everything else, and that gaining a soul is learning how to be like God. The impulses of the body are the “natural man” and can influence us for good or ill (but mostly ill), so no, we don’t believe that having desires to be with someone of the same sex is a sin, but acting on it is. It is conquering these natural struggles that we consider learning to be like Christ.
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February 17th, 2012 on 1:56 pm
Jenna,
As someone who is in a lesbian relationship, I really commend this post. I think that you’re questioning really important things that you’ve learnt in the LDS church. I think you’re really wise to question the LDS doctrine so openly, and incredibly brave to do so.
I think that one thing that might help you, is actually spending time with someone who is gay. Do you have any gay friends? I’m sure you’ve met a gay person before (although you may have not known it!), but really spending time with one and getting to know their family, if they have one, could help you further your thoughts on the issue. And hey, if you ever have any questions you’d like to ask a “family oriented” gay person, you can ask me anything you want (even if you think the question is offensive). I’m so open to talking to people who want to understand homosexuality, and gay marriage in general.
I think the bottom line is that we all deserve love, partnership, sexual fulfillment and happiness. You’re well on your way to forming your own, valid, opinion about where you stand on the issue.
Thank you for being so open, and for being brave enough to post this. I commend you for questioning doctrine when it “just doesn’t feel right”.
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Jenna Reply:
March 24th, 2012 at 11:34 am
Thank you for your offer to be someone I can email if I have questions! We do have a close friend who is gay, he was a groomsmen in our wedding, and actually lives in San Francisco! We’re excited to spend some time with him after we move.
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February 17th, 2012 on 2:24 pm
Well,
I completely support prop 8 because I fully believe and support the proclamation to the world where it says: THE FAMILY is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan.
God created us to procreate and designed us to be united as man and woman. I understand your concern that homosexual people may not enjoy THAT relationship/connection if they choose bridle their passions but what about people who never find a person of the opposite sex to be with and enjoy that relationship?
Jesus Christ loved everyone but only gave the blessing of the highest to those who sacrifice the world and follow Him. I think of the woman at the well when he challenged; him who has committed no sin be the first to cast a stone and after he told the woman to sin no more (paraphrased…sorry). Christ can not give her all the blessing he has in store if she doesn’t change and repent.
I believe the same principle apply to this topic too.
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Cassie Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 3:33 pm
But what happens to the nonbelievers who don’t particularly feel like conforming? Shall we deny them their rights on principles they don’t hold? Where do any of us get the authority to tell others how to live, provided the social contract (essentially “Be good to each other”) isn’t violated?
The United States is a secular democracy, not a theocracy. Freedom to believe as we will is codified in one of our most cherished documents. I read that particular stipulation as implying that we are also free from subjugation to our fellow citizens’ beliefs if we do not share them. Did the Puritans and the Quakers not flee England to escape that very persecution? Yet neither rules today–and neither clamors to rule. We also have Jews, Muslims, Pagans of all sorts, Hindus, Buddhists, to name a few; one is likely to find a practitioner of every religion here, welcome here because we do not legislate according to any one faith.
Shall we forget the welcome set out in the Constitution and written on the inside of the Statue of Liberty? Or shall we uphold it, knowing that we will have to learn to get along with those who differ from us, and to protect their rights to live as they like, so long as they don’t hurt anyone else doing so? Which would you want, if you lived, say, as a Christian in Egypt?
I am not particularly Christian, but I try, still, to do unto others as I would have done unto me.
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Michelle Reply:
February 21st, 2012 at 3:25 pm
Beautifully said.
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Virginia Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 4:16 pm
I completely support prop 8 because I fully believe and support the proclamation to the world where it says: THE FAMILY is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan.
It’s entirely within your right to believe that, however misguided or horrible I might think it is.
But the point people have been making over and over in this post is why should other people care, if they don’t belong to your religion? Why should YOUR religion be made into LAW, when they should be completely different things? What about all the other religions or beliefs?
Think about it this way. As a religious person (you don’t say what denomination you are), you probably go to church every Sunday or Saturday because that’s mandated by your religion. If you’re Catholic, you go to Confession and you take Communion. You get Baptized. This is your right. But if you started a campaign to make all these things into law, can you see how it would be wrong?
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Jessica Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 5:26 pm
I really appreciate your comments and view points,i think that’s what makes america so wonderful our ability to have and express an opinion! I personally don’t see it as my religion opinion I truly believe it its Gods standard.
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Molly Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 9:57 pm
Again, I think Virginia’s point is that – while it’s your right to believe that it is God’s standard – it doesn’t matter to those who don’t have those religious views. It is not the place of a government to deny civil rights to certain people because of the religious standard of others. There are places in the world who govern using religion as a basis for their laws, but America is not one of them (because of our commitment to separation of church and state).
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Marissa Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 10:20 pm
I am asking this question out of complete ignorance, so please no one call me stupid! What specific civil rights are being denied to gay couples? Don’t civil unions give gay couples all of the rights that a married couple has (i.e. the can be on the same insurance, etc?) or are there specific things like that that ONLY married couples can have that Civil Unions do not offer? And it probably differs state to state but I have been told that in California, at least, civil unions offer all of those rights to gay couples. Again, this is in total ignorance, so is there someone who knows the real answer to this? What are the specific civil rights that are being denied to gay couples? (or is it the title of marriage only?)
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Marissa Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 10:21 pm
** Not that the title of marriage isn’t a big deal, I’m just trying to sort out what the civil rights are that are being denied.
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Cassie Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 10:22 pm
It’s not at all a stupid question, and I’m chuffed to see you asking.
Here’s a link that outlines it pretty well:
http://www.now.org/issues/marriage/marriage_unions.html
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Christiana Reply:
February 29th, 2012 at 11:41 am
Not a stupid question, but there are loads of things. Personally, I am most upset about immigration. My husband is a UK citizen, and I am a US citizen. If we were a same sex couple, our path to being together would be next to impossible. Not to mention all the other parts, like our rights to our children and their immigration rights and it just goes on and on and one. Check out cassie’s link!
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Marissa C Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 5:45 pm
I really really struggle with this too. I guess I’m okay with civil unions or even if we want to call it marriage. Honestly, I view my Catholic marriage as something entirely different than the civil bond I could break with divorce. It really has nothing to do with my religion.
Now, I do wonder if we would eventually get to the point of saying that churches who will not marry homosexual couples are discriminating. THAT I would not be okay with. I don’t think it is too much of a stretch to say that it would be next on the list, though.
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Cassie Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 8:12 pm
I wouldn’t be okay with it, either. That decision should be up to individual churches. That’s their freedom of religion; to tell them how to practice sits poorly with me. I advocate for the legalisation of same-sex marriage for the rights and privileges this country affords married people, not so anyone can tell any religious establishment what to do on the subject.
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Married in Chicago Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 8:44 pm
Well – they *are* discriminating. But, that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t legally be allowed to.
If you agree that the definition of “discrimination” is to treat someone differently because of their membership in a certain group or category, then not performing a marriage because someone is gay obviously fits into that definition.
That being said, I believe it is within a Church’s right to make such a decision. If a priest is firmly against gay marriage, then I certainly don’t think he should be forced to perform such a marriage. But, to say that his refusal isn’t discriminatory is nonsensical.
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Molly Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 9:50 pm
I am not Catholic and most Catholic churches would not marry me unless I converted. This doesn’t make me want to force them into it. I dont think Lesbians and gay people are looking to stage a take-down of religious institutions.
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Sophia Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 10:50 pm
I do think it is too much of a stretch, respectfully. I am an American citizen and I am currently in a relationship with a partner who possesses a penis. I have a vagina. Under the law, I can legally get married.
BUT.
I can’t get married in a Catholic church. I can’t get married in an LDS temple. I can’t get married in a Jewish synagogue. All of the these institutions have *their own requirements* for marriage within their holy buildings- and I support that right, wholeheartedly!- and if I don’t meet those requirements, I can’t get married there, the end.
Why do people think this would change with gay marriage? I’m being denied marriage ceremonies already despite my right under the law to get married, so would a gay person who does not meet the requirements. It’s not any different.
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Jackie Reply:
February 18th, 2012 at 12:40 pm
I agree. This is a common argument, but it won’t happen. For one, any law supporting gay marriage always specifically gives churches the right not to perform them. They just flat out wouldn’t pass otherwise.
Second, if they did pass, it would easily be overturned in the courts. Only the federal government is bound to protect the bill of rights. Like if a parent decided to not allow their kids to curse, that would not be a violation of the first amendment. So only institutions which receive federal funding are bound to guaranteeing those rights. That’s why BYU can have rules like it does.
Third, there has been a long history of churches only allowing certain people to marry. To get married in the Catholic Church, you have to be a baptized Catholic and not previously married. To get married in a LDS temple, you have to be temple-worthy. Are those things discriminating on the basis of religion? In one sense, yes. But that’s okay, because they have the right to do that. So in the same way, a church would have the right not to perform a gay marriage.
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February 17th, 2012 on 4:24 pm
As one of your queer readers, who is in a loving, committed relationship with another woman of nearly six years (and hopefully 60 more), I don’t think I can really put into words how good your entry made me feel.
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Catherine Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 4:31 pm
ALSO, Regarding Same-Sex Marriages. Al Sharpton spoke particularly eloquently during his Presidential Campaign in 2003:
“I believe in equal human rights, before the law, for all human beings, and race, gender, disability,
class or sexual orientation should not be a factor under the law. Even though we live under the law
in a secular democratic society, religious groups must still be able to maintain their spiritual and
moral option to either give or withhold a religious or sacred blessing to such unions. However, the
government should not have that option. It must affirm the human and legal rights of everyone.”
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Marissa C Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 5:46 pm
I can get on board with this.
Curious on a completely different topic–why is the word “queer” used so often, even by gay men and lesbians to describe themselves? It seems so derogatory. I don’t think you are “queer!”
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Cassie Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 8:07 pm
[grin] I myself identify as queer for two reasons:
1. None of the other labels quite fit (I’m only sort of bi, about a 1.5 on the Kinsey; I also consider my polyamory as part of my orientation), and
2. I’m taking the word back for myself. I can’t say whether that’s true for other LGBTQ-identified people, and I never presume. Much like certain other words, this is one you kind of need to be able to identify as to use, and I don’t apply it to others if I’m unsure of its reception. I use it mostly as shorthand for #1 as well as a way of saying, definitively, “Yes, I belong with you, even if there’s a man on my arm. This space is ours to share.”
“Queer” as a verb is used to denote a LGBTQ view of a mainstream phenomenon in some contexts, as in “queering” pop culture. It denotes that we’re attempting to examine our world from our perspective and has been used, if I recall correctly, in academic work.
I hope I’ve helped satisfy some of the curiosity! People who have more experience with this one can, of course, answer for themselves.
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Catherine Reply:
February 19th, 2012 at 9:56 am
Obviously, I can only speak for myself, but I use “Queer” because it is an umbrella term. It is also just shorter/easier to say than “Well, my sexual orientation is bisexual, but my sexual identity is lesbian — I’m about a 5 on the Kinsey, you know?”
It’s not as much about reclaiming a word that is often used pejoratively as a lot of people seem to think it is … even for me.
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February 17th, 2012 on 5:03 pm
Beautifully put. Someone I love deeply, and have known my entire life, is homosexual. And I can speak with confidence that it isn’t a choice. And that has destroyed any hope of listening to pastors and spiritual leaders who don’t acknowledge the complexity of the issue.
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February 17th, 2012 on 6:11 pm
Someone mentioned the infringing on other’s civil rights thing above, and I guess just to go along with that, for anyone saying that they believe homosexuality is wrong who may or may not be LDS, I guess another perspective is that LDS people thing drinking alcohol is something they shouldn’t do, but there aren’t any lobbies for reinstating prohibition, are there? (I mean, maybe there are but they certainly aren’t very popular and aren’t getting any press.) Because we all know that other people like drinking alcohol and they are free to do so. So why can’t gay people get married? They don’t believe in your religion-you’re free to judge them in your own brains or inner circles if you wish (although that doesn’t seem very Christian)-so they don’t have to follow your religious rules. It’s cool if you think it’s a sin, but frankly those who don’t follow your religion don’t care what you think is a sin. They just want you out of their personal business. Nobody follows me to the grocery store and stands behind me yelling while I buy alcohol, and I also expect that no one comes to my civil ceremony (or follows me into a Planned Parenthood to get an abortion, for that matter) to tell me what to do. We don’t live in a theocracy.
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Sophia Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 10:53 pm
“It’s cool if you think it’s a sin, but frankly those who don’t follow your religion don’t care what you think is a sin. They just want you out of their personal business. Nobody follows me to the grocery store and stands behind me yelling while I buy alcohol, and I also expect that no one comes to my civil ceremony (or follows me into a Planned Parenthood to get an abortion, for that matter) to tell me what to do. We don’t live in a theocracy.”
EXACTLY. I don’t see Hindus protesting the agricultural policy in our country which subsidizes beef- as another example of your point.
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Christiana Reply:
February 29th, 2012 at 11:44 am
YES YES YES! Exactly, I get that some people feel it’s a sin—but why does that mean they have the right to inflict their religious beliefs onto other people?
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February 17th, 2012 on 6:24 pm
Jenna I totally commend your honesty, something I think too many of us lack but I have a question; two of your awakening posts you have shared how your perception has changed on two very crucial doctorines of the LDS faith: priesthood power given to man from god and marriage between a man and woman if you are unsure of these central doctrines then how do you know the other aspects of the gospel are true? If the prophet was wrong in marriage being between Man and a woman how many other things did he get wrong?
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Amy Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 7:15 pm
I have been thinking this all the time!! I’m not LDS, but if I was questioning crucial doctrine points like these, I would totally start questioning everything else. I don’t mean this in an attacking way at all, I just sincerely am curious as to how Jenna is reconciling these issues with other LDS doctrine and choosing to remain in that faith.
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Jenna Reply:
March 24th, 2012 at 11:36 am
This is a very good question. I have a whole lot more reading to do before I have an answer (but I think it’s time that we figure out a better way to say that the prophet is fallible, because right now we *say* we think he is fallible, but if you say you think he is wrong, everyone gasps in disbelief).
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February 17th, 2012 on 7:11 pm
I started reading your blog a few weeks ago, and started with your archived LDS related posts. This Awakening is very inspiring, and I can’t help but think I could hear this voice between the lines, all along.
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February 17th, 2012 on 8:27 pm
The Bible might be unclear about certain topics, but not about homosexual behavior “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.” Leviticus 18:22
That said, we should never forget that homosexuals, whether or not they act out on their homosexuality, are children of the Lord. “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” Romans 3:23. We ought to love one another as Christ commanded.
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Sophia Reply:
February 17th, 2012 at 10:58 pm
First of all, I’ve never understood why people pick and choose with Leviticus- there are a LOT of rules in that book we break pretty much every day and no one bats and eye, but the gay thing seems to be cherry picked all the time…
Overall, the Bible is pretty insane about sex, in my humble opinion. If you’re raped in the city it’s your fault since “if you cried out in protest, SOMEONE would have heard you and saved you” but if you’re raped in the country “ok, we’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you protested, so here, marry your rapist”. Show us your bloody sheet, girl, or else we all get to stone you, yay! Also, it grosses me out that the most widely quoted moral story against homosexuality is Sodom and Gommorrah (sp?)- um, that guy offered his virgin daughters to a crowd of people to RAPE?? WHAT?? And I’m supposed to look to that as an example of how God smote them for being gay? How about God thought it was messed up to throw one’s daughters to the wolves?
Also, all the rules about how I’m unclean when I’m on my period, I can’t be touched, etc.- I just have to say, I am very glad that we don’t all have to align our sex lives to the rules of the Old Testament.
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Chelsea McGowan Reply:
February 18th, 2012 at 9:31 am
Also, I eat lobster and don’t cover my head when I go out, and sometimes I argue with my husband, and occasionally, we have sex that doesn’t “complete” to a reproductive end, if you know what I’m saying.
We’re under the NEW covenant. The rules in the old covenant don’t apply anymore!
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Jackie Reply:
February 18th, 2012 at 12:44 pm
My theory has always been that Levitcus rules were to maximize procreation. Things like discouraging gay sex and sex while a women is on her period and not abandoning a woman whom you already had ‘marital relations’ with – that would lead to an increase in the numbers and strength of the Jewish people. I don’t think it was really a “moral” thing.
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Stephanie C Reply:
February 18th, 2012 at 4:44 pm
This is a very interesting perspective, Jackie.. Thanks for that. Never thought of it that way.
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Sophia Reply:
February 18th, 2012 at 9:30 pm
Honestly, Jackie, this is probably the only way Leviticus has ever made any sense to me. Thanks for the food for thought!
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February 17th, 2012 on 11:11 pm
I’ve been despairing so much lately over the shallow state of blogging and the internet. Design posts are easy to write and generally popular, but they’re empty calories and totally forgotten as soon as I’ve closed my browser. So just have to say how much I respect your Awakening series. You should be proud of the deep exchanges that go on in the comments. Can’t really speak to the religious aspects, since my views have always been different than yours, but just wanted to send some props on the blogging front.
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February 18th, 2012 on 9:00 am
Just want to add my voice to the resounding statements about a number of things:
1. This post and this series have actually made me excited to open my google reader for the first time in a while. Your honest, eloquent writing, sharing your changing and shaping opinions on incredibly difficult and important topics is, simply put, amazing.
2. I am happy, as a progressive, agnostic person to see your heart, mind and prayer guiding you to a place where, from what I can tell, you not only feel happier and more celebrated, but also celebrates women, people who are gay, and open minded decision making.
3. I think you’re generally just awesome. You should know.
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February 18th, 2012 on 9:44 am
I’m an atheist, so the religious discomfort with homosexuality has not touched my personally. My opinions on homosexuality have always been liberal and I can’t imagine thinking another way. So I want to express my admiration of you for exploring this and being so honest about it. It really takes a lot of strength of character to do so. So thanks.
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February 18th, 2012 on 12:34 pm
I commend the author for thinking deeply about important issues like same-sex attraction and its place within the greater context of the Plan of Salvation so central to LDS theology. Given all the many comments already offered here, I don’t know if my comment will even be noticed or given much attention, but I certainly hope it will.
I just wanted to suggest a fantastic resource which has helped me to make sense of the various issues surrounding same-sex attraction: while re-visitng BYU campus a few years ago, I came across a book in the book store called, simply enough, “Understanding Same-Sex Attraction”, edited by Dahle, Byrd, Cox, Dant, Duncan, Livingstone, and Wells. It’s a compilation of the work of various authors – ecclesiastical leaders, mental health and public health professionals, attorneys, social science researchers, and everday people who have been directly affected by the issues. The book is appropriately eclectic, incorporating the relevant LDS doctrines and perspectives, a surprisingly robust body of scientific literature and practitioner experience, and the personal experiences of people who have struggled through same-sex attraction and, in their cases, happily been able to embrace all of the restored gospel as it has been presented to the world. I would rather let people read the book for themselves and form their own opinions, so I will not say too much about the book, other than that I was bothered by a lot of questions and things I didn’t understand, and have arrived at a place where I am much more confident and at peace in my beliefs at a time when same-sex issues are gaining such salience in public and private discourse.
I live in Washington, DC, and have known a variety of people dealing with same-sex attraction: friends, former roommates, a current roommate, peers in graduate school, strangers I’ve met, and so forth. I’ve studied the issues quite a lot and will continue to do so. Also, I am a single Latter-day Saint, barely still considered a YSA; while I would not say I am an “expert” on same-sex attraction, per se, I would say I know a thing or two about it and the context of trying to live a happy, productive, chaste single life. I’d be happy to discuss more at length one-on-one with anyone interested.
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February 18th, 2012 on 3:42 pm
Aw, this post warmed my heart.
I think it’s so fabulous that you’re really thinking and questioning your prior beliefs — it’s something that most people are not strong enough to do, or don’t have the desire to do — or, if they do, they certainly don’t share it!
As a very religious person, who went through hell when I came out from the church I grew up in, these are such important messages for those in the church to hear. I was excommunicated from my childhood church in a very public way and it was awful. It was the most un-Christlike process imaginable and I truly believe it’s a miracle that I have any faith, or interest in the church, left at all. The idea that being gay is about more than sex is something that most of the religious community does not understand, which is so frustrating to me. I’ve been with my partner for five and a half years and sex is certainly not what defines our relationship.
I want someone to sit on the couch with, eat ice cream, and watch Star Trek, hiking on the weekends, crying with when things are bad, or rejoicing together when we feel blessed. That’s our GAY AGENDA. Bickering over who has to do the dishes and dreaming about having children someday. I don’t care about other people’s marriages, in that I certainly don’t wish them ill and believe everyone should be able to marry the people that they love. That’s all I want. The legal issues around not being married (we’re in CA, so can’t) are very scary to me. The idea of not being able to see my partner in the hospital while she’s dying, or my family taking up legal action against her to try and get custody of our children (if, God forbid, something happened to me). I can’t even imagine. So…thanks for this post.
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February 18th, 2012 on 6:29 pm
I loved this post too. Probably about three or four years ago I started asking some of the questions that you are beginning to ask, and I started being open to answers that surprised me. It started for me when a boy who had written me during his whole mission and my whole mission, and asked me on dates for four months afterward and asked to meet my parents and told me he loved me over and over but never touched me, and was the grandson of my favorite LDS apostle, asked me out to lunch exactly one year after he broke off whatever we were. As we sat in the restaurant he told me he brought me there to talk about that relation, and I thought, “I’m not sad about it in the same way. You don’t want to date me, that’s fine,” but remained quiet as he told me, “I’m more attracted to men than to women.” He hadn’t told anyone when we were still dating, barely even himself though it had been true since childhood. When he told me, the main other people he had told were E. Holland (not his grandfather), his parents, and bishop. I really felt the scripture, “The truth will set you free.” And any sadness that I felt was for him, as he told me that he still wanted to be involved in the church, but didn’t want to be the old man in the ward that never had kids and that everyone wondered about. It was the first time I knew that it had nothing to do with faith, because from my relationship with him, as well as from his missionary letters I knew he had more faith and love in the Savior than almost everyone else in my life. And I realized, that if it is a sin, then it is a very different kind of sin then those other things you mentioned, like stealing or lying. And there are very real differences too, to tell someone that they can’t have sex until they marry compared to telling someone they can’t have sex ever. Not that sex is the end all and be all, but love is, and it is one form of love. People without love become shells instead of human beings. And from my experience, then, and one more time, dating someone who was gay, I wish the church would be more open with it, simply so members could be more open with it and so girl’s (and perhaps boy’s) hearts wouldn’t break in the same way that mine did from loving someone romantically that was trying, but could never love me back, the way I needed and deserved.
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Sophia Reply:
February 18th, 2012 at 9:36 pm
Rachel, thank you for sharing this. It was very moving and a good reminder of the potential fall-out from cultural expectations of being heterosexual.
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Jenna Reply:
March 23rd, 2012 at 12:29 am
This comment was so touching and real and I hate that this has to keep happening to people. Saying you can never marry is not the same as saying you might not marry, not the same at all. I saw today that a young gay man committed suicide this week. It’s too sad.
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February 19th, 2012 on 6:59 am
[...] this week, Jenna of That Wife fame wrote a very moving and eloquent piece on her changed views on [...]
February 19th, 2012 on 3:11 pm
EXTREMELY good post. A lot of the views and thoughts are quite the same as mine, so I thank you for voicing them so eloquently in a way that I lack.
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February 19th, 2012 on 4:00 pm
Hi Jenna,
I really didn’t want to get involved in this conversation. I know what I say wont really change minds. At least I don’t think so. It may even bring out anger and criticism. But it’s been nagging in my mind for days and I have felt like I need to say something. I am directing my comments to you as a friend in the faith and if you choose not to post this publicly that is fine. But I wanted you to know I felt sad reading the comments from your post. It is sad how divisive a topic it is. It is very sad that so many use religion as a way to hate others. And it is sad that others hate those who believe in religion. I noticed a lot of compliments to you on your new found “Awakening.” I’m not sure this is representative of the population of our country, which has voted every time to ban gay marriage. This isn’t just how our church thinks. But I am very glad you have come to some more understanding and loving conclusions about people which I think many in our church and others could use some additional understanding themselves.
I am also sad because even though I feel like I support all people,I believe that homosexuality can and usually is a biological issue, I want these couples to find happiness, to find love, to have the rights they deserve, people become angry and upset with me because I also believe a prophet of God told me that marriage is between a man and a woman–I am sad that this makes me a bigot. I know a lot of people who wont marry…and who would like to marry. There are people who never find someone. There are others who find someone who after years wont marry them. And there are others the law says cannot marry. Everyone has the RIGHT to marry, but it has to be done in the defined way.
And I think there is a choice. If you’d like to find that sexual fulfillment outside of marriage, that is your right, whether gay or straight. But however unpopular, I believe a loving God who is no respector of persons also has laws he wants his children to follow. Laws that may not seem fair. Laws that may seem very difficult to follow (an example in our church could include asking an alcoholic to stay away from alcohol).
Anyway, I guess I wanted to say for all of the congratulations you have received, did you consider the first presidency and the proclamation to the family when you made your decision to support gay marriage? How do you reconcile this? I’ve had a lot of questions about this topic myself but this is what I come back to.
(I am wondering if you are you siding with the thought that a loving God wouldn’t make life so unfair? If so there are plenty of examples of unfairness (almost unbearable) in this life. Loss of a child, illness, an unfaithful spouse, etc.)
I’d love to hear your thoughts on this. Thanks!
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Sophia Reply:
February 19th, 2012 at 6:40 pm
“And it is sad that others hate those who believe in religion.” I don’t know anyone who “hates” someone who believes in religion, or God. But I do know a lot of people who are pretty angry that those who believe in religion or God try and force those beliefs on others. Might a gay person, or a straight ally, “hate” the religious beliefs that motivate people to take away rights? Yes, but that is very different from simply saying “oh, gee, I really hate everyone who believes in God”. Even my most militant atheist friends believe that people can believe whatever they want, as long as they don’t try and enshrine it in law.
That’s what it comes down to. If you want to disagree with homosexuality, you can. You can think it’s a sin, you can be a member of a church that doesn’t honor gay marriage- all okay! But don’t take it a step further and say that because of *your religious beliefs* people should live in this country as citizens without equal rights under the law. *That* is what is so divisive. Not religion, not even religious beliefs- but the fact that those religious beliefs get translated into legislative action that denies rights to citizens.
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Jessica Reply:
February 20th, 2012 at 8:20 am
But aren’t you trying to enshrine your beliefs in law? If two people have two fundamentally differing views on what marriage is – whether based on secular or religious values – ONE of them is going to have their view of marriage enshrined in law. Secular people have deeply held values they want to impose on society, just as religious people do. And that’s ok. That’s what “making a law by majority rule” IS. It’s imposing a value held by some over all.
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Sophia Reply:
February 20th, 2012 at 11:18 am
The difference is how it affects other people and the right they have to make choices about their own lives. Yes, I value a separation of church and state (and I haven’t heard any solid arguments against gay marriage that aren’t rooted in religion) and the right for people to make choices for their own lives, based on their own values.
The fact of the matter is, as trite as it sounds, if you don’t believe in gay marriage: you don’t have to have one! Consider the fact that Mormons believe that drinking tea/coffee is a big enough transgression that it might threaten a temple recommend, but you don’t see them trying to get those things illegal, or wanting to get Starbucks shut down. Divorce, contraception, drinking, smoking- all of these things are considered pretty big no-nos by many religions, but they are still legal. People who don’t value those things, or who think they are wrong, *don’t have to participate*. They still have a choice. Likewise, those who have no problem with those things can take part in them. It’s like this:
Gay marriage is not legal: Those who think homosexuality is a sin can still believe that, preach it, teach it to their kids, and of course they won’t take part in gay marriages and no one will force them to. Unfortunately, those who do not believe those things don’t have the right to get married.
Gay marriage is legal: Those who think homosexuality is a sin can still believe that, preach it, teach it to their kids, and of course they won’t take part in gay marriages and no one will force them to. Fortunately, those who do not believe those things have the right to get married.
Those are two very different scenarios. The former takes away another choice to live their life according to their own values. The latter does not.
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Sophia Reply:
February 20th, 2012 at 3:52 pm
One more thought- the argument could also be made that abstaining from something that is otherwise legal is a more meaningful way of living one’s religion than not being able to do it at all if it’s illegal. In other words, the very nature of having a choice, and choosing the “right path” as described by one’s religion, is a lot more honorable (in my opinion) because it involves saying no to a viable, legal option- drinking, smoking, pre-marital sex, contraception, divorce, and, yes, perhaps gay marriage. It takes initiative, willpower, and conviction to willingly *choose* to abstain from legal activities.
But if something is simply illegal, where is the righteousness in “living one’s religion” when you really didn’t choose to live your religion at all? You were just trying to stay out of jail.
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Jessica Reply:
February 20th, 2012 at 8:22 am
(But don’t pretend only one side of the debate is trying to “impose their values.”)
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Sophia Reply:
February 20th, 2012 at 11:21 am
I disagree- both sides are motivated by their values, but only one side is imposing their values by the strict definition of “imposing”. By not making gay marriage legal, you are taking away the choice for others to live by the dictates of their own conscience. By making gay marriage legal, those who don’t value that don’t have to take part- nothing is being imposed on them, and they are not losing any rights by gay people being given rights. Please see my response to you above.
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Molly Reply:
February 20th, 2012 at 12:12 pm
I totally agree with you Sophie. It’s frustrating to hear arguments that gay marriage somehow negatively affects people with religous opposition to it. I just haven’t heard any logical viewpoint for how two same sex people getting married actively harms anyone else. That’s why it’s unconstitutional. I feel that laws should serve to protect people and something like Prop 8 only inflicts harm – it protects no one.
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Sophia Reply:
February 20th, 2012 at 3:47 pm
“Prop 8 only inflicts harm – it protects no one” YES. I totally agree.
The idea that the mere *existence* of gay marriage in the world is an imposition on one’s values is such a self centered view that it is very hard for me to understand. I am also baffled as to why the existence of gay marriage in the world is such an affront to one’s values, but the existence of pre-marital sex, divorce, contraception, alcohol, and cigarettes are not also enough of an affront to work to get all of those things made illegal under the law…
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Sophia Reply:
February 20th, 2012 at 11:31 am
Think of it this way: say I’m hosting an inter-faith conference with Seventh Day Adventists, Hindus, Jewish people, and Baptists. The first two don’t eat meat, the third don’t eat pork, and the fourth have no dietary restrictions.
I can set out a buffet with beef, pork, vegan food, and vegetarian food. Each of them can make their own choice as to what to eat- the Jewish people can shun the pork, the Hindus can shun the meat with the Seventh Day Adventists, and the Baptists can eat whatever they want. Everyone has a choice, and can make their choices according to their religious beliefs. I’m not going to not serve meat because that wouldn’t be fair to the Baptists and the Jewish people, and I’m not going to only serve meat because that wouldn’t be fair to the Hindus and Seventh Day Adventists. In this way, all of their respective religious beliefs can be honored, without imposing the dietary rules of one group on the other. Giving everyone a choice is not imposing- it is giving them all their own religious freedom.
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Jeremy Reply:
February 20th, 2012 at 5:12 pm
Would your “live and let live” attitude extend to allowing polygamous marriage to be legal? What about brothers and sisters marrying? (Assuming in both cases that the parties are all consenting adults.) I’m not saying that same sex marriage is the same as these other types of marriage. (In fact, I’m for civil unions.) But I think you’ll find that your philosophy of “let it be legal for consenting adults if it doesn’t directly affect me” would allow a lot, including these two other types of marriage…
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Cassie Reply:
February 20th, 2012 at 6:14 pm
Hey, I have no problems with consenting adults marrying in any configuration. I don’t think we’re there yet, as a society, and we wouldn’t even know how to handle incestuous couples without the “marriage” part, but should the time come within my lifetime, I see no way it would hurt me. I worry only in the case of the incest that perhaps it would hurt the people involved. (Personally, I know enough people living in polyamorous marriage-like arrangements that I’m not a bit concerned about that!) But that’s me, and I tend to be very liberal on this issue.
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Jenna Reply:
March 23rd, 2012 at 12:41 am
Hi Erin,
Thanks for very respectfully presenting your viewpoint.
The only way I can reconcile all of this is to believe that the things we have been told thus far are a product of culture, not of God. The ban on Blacks and the Priesthood has been a starting point for me in this area.
Yes, there are plenty of things that are unfair. But most of them are either a natural consequence (miscarrying a baby because it is not developing properly in your body, illness (which I can’t believe is some sort of act from God, I think it is a natural process)) or of other people’s choices (a cheating spouse, your child being hit by a car, etc). Denying someone companionship and fulfillment is “unfair” in a completely different way. We once used to believe that God was preventing Blacks from having the priesthood, and it was just “unfair” and would be rectified later. Then things changed. I think there is hope for change in this area as well, and that the opinions that have been offered by our leaders are also based on cultural attitudes.
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February 20th, 2012 on 4:03 pm
Jenna- Please do not even worry about posting this is you do not wish to. Like someone said above, your current posts are actually disturbing. What a platform you have and you are confusing many people. You are going to get congratulations for your message because that is what is popular. I would love any gay person as I would a straight person, but if you believe in the Church and the Prophet, you are taking an issue and sending out the wrong message. I normally would NEVER tell someone this but it kind of makes me sick to my stomach that you are posting things like this because I feel that one day you will regret it. I choice tolerance for all but YOUR opinion does not constitute what the Church believes. Who are you to try to change what Prophets, the Proclamation, scriptures, bishops, etc. have said. I feel you are close to real trouble. It is actually something that I have thought about for days now. FAITH is what helps us know that one day we will get all answers. Where has yours gone?
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Trevor Reply:
February 22nd, 2012 at 1:14 am
Your comment is completely inappropriate. Jenna has never claimed to be espousing church doctrine. She is very explicit regarding her intent and opinions. Of anyone I know, Jenna sees the world in a way that is truly sincere. We all struggle. We all have to figure out who we are and what we believe. How dare you question that! How dare you question her faith! Maybe this is also inappropriate, and I apologize for it, but not one person I know, religious or not, would ever question another person’s faith in the way that you have.
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HEB Reply:
February 22nd, 2012 at 10:30 am
Hi Trevor,
Let me further clarify…As a very public blogger, Jenna is putting herself up for public debate, adoration, and ridicule. Let me make one thing VERY clear. I in NO WAY think that Jenna does not have faith nor is she anything but wonderful. Wuite the opposite actually. What bothers me is that she is using her blog to inform the masses that the church is not perfect, but working towards it, that she is going to disregard things in the For the Strength of Youth pamphlet, that she now, all of the sudden, choices to put her opinions above those of the leaders of our Church. Are you a member? If you were you might understand how I feel. If she has the right to blog about what she feels is incorrect doctorine in the Church, then I have the right to question HER about it! It is a two-fold thing here. Please tell me why I can’t question what has brought her here to this point. The point where she blogs about what she feels is right and our Leaders have wronged. As a completely imperfect person myself, let me be the first to say that my own mother has said to me, “where has your faith gone?” This is not a bad thing, it is merely a question when someone is concerned for me. We all experience crisis of faith and do things that are impulsive and just plain wrong (should I create a list of my own…hum, wait…it might be a novel so hold that thought.) However, if someone wants to say what the heck are you thinking??? they can because they just might be right.
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HEB Reply:
February 22nd, 2012 at 12:37 pm
I had one more thing to add, respectively. If I were to tell you that I was an addict of something such as a dependancy on prescription meds, would I be justified in acting out on the thing that I fight constantly? I am charged with rising up and fighting this temptation. If I told you that I could not make myself happy without taking them it still does not justify the action. This too, may be the way that Heavenly Father views this challange that he gives to some who have inclinations for the same sex. The Proclamation makes it very clear that a married relationship is between A woman and a man. It does not give an exemption for those who are gay. Openly stating that you are for gay marriage when the First Presidency has made their stance on Prop 8 crystal clear is blatant arrogance. (Now please keep in mind that this applies to those who are active, believing members of The Church of Jesus Christ of LAtter Day Saints.) In essence, we are asserting our own will (which in Jenna’s case is based on her confusion and her practice of substitution mentioned in her post. This last comment sounds very harsh but there is no other way to view it. The church is black and white on this issue, regardless of popular opinion.
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Rachel Reply:
February 22nd, 2012 at 1:00 pm
It is interesting to me that you use as evidence the sentence about “A man and A woman,” explicating one of each, as there was a big chunk of our history where we actually believed that marriage was between One man and Many woman.
This is actually the reason why I think we, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints should be more compassionate to homosexual men and women. There was a time that we were looked upon poorly because we had an idea of marriage that was not only outside of the norm, but outside of the law. It seems like we could be more understanding to those whose ideas are similarly so. This does not mean we have to agree with them, or think that they are right, but we could let them practice their beliefs as we once hoped others would have let us practice ours.
Secondly, Doctrine and Covenants tells us that there is only one type of marriage that is of God. It is not even marriage between a man and woman not performed in God’s holy temple. Thus, why should we care if marriage between homosexuals is of God or not? Very, very few marriage is, and we don’t denounce all other types of marriage, while still encouraging our children and others in our sphere of responsibility to marry by God’s law in the temple.
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Rachel Reply:
February 22nd, 2012 at 12:51 pm
It isn’t about being a perfect or imperfect person. And I think it is even less about having perfect faith. It is possible to both have faith and not think everything taught by the brethren is truth. I am an active, temple recommend holding, returned missionary, married in the temple Mormon, and I believe this. I believe this because we know that prophets are human, and that as human they (like us) are fallible. Brigham once said that Adam was God. Later prophets said he was wrong. Our church is a church of continuing revelation. What is said at one time might change. During the Civil Rights movement, if members believed that black men were worthy of the Priesthood, they would be right, but look wrong in the then current position of the church. This is not to say that definitely down the line another prophet will say wildly different things regarding our homosexual brothers and sisters, but we have to remember that it is possible. I also have many friends who have prayed about the topic that is being addressed here and came to similar conclusions. I don’t think it is simply the case that they need to pray again, or pray harder again. And it might be possible that one person could receive one answer while another person receives another. Personal revelation is a real thing, and it does not always mirror what is taught in the institution.
In addition to Joseph Smith’s famous quip about teaching correct principles and letting men (and women) govern themselves, he once wrote:
?”We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them — even if they knew it was wrong. But such obedience as this is worse than folly to us. It is slavery in the extreme. The man who would thus willingly degrade himself should not claim a rank among intelligent beings until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise this idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their presidents, they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves.” — Joseph Smith, Jr. Millenial Star, Archive Volume 14, Number 38, Pages 593-595
We are never asked to follow without finding our own testimony first.
Lastly, I think that Trevor’s distinction that Jenna never espoused herself as speaking for the church to be a very important one in light of these things. She is entitled to view things how she sees fit. She also has a mind, which she has been commanded to use, and the ability to receive revelation that may be different than yours or even the prophets. That doesn’t mean she is going against the prophet. Even in the letter sent out to those in California during Prop 8 offered the caveat that members could disagree without punishment, or any sort of negative connotation. They recognized that some would, and told them it was fine.
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HEB Reply:
February 22nd, 2012 at 2:50 pm
I can totally appreciate all that you have said and I do understand it. I do believe that tolerance is a MUST for everyone. This iseal I do believe in. However, until the doctorine DOES change, I will follow the current statements made by those in authority. I never said that we should not think for ourselves, but in the end, does it really matter? Until it is changed, it is MY opinion that those principals should be followed. The last point is that of course we were told we didn’t have to side with them on Prop. 8. We are given our agency, and besides the GOVERNMENT is a democracy whereas the counsel from the prophet is not. We do not get a vote on what comes from the pulpit, we just have the opportunity to sustain our leaders. Doing so means that you support them until something changes (i.e. priesthood for black men). We do get new revelation all of the time and we should flow with it. If I hear something that I do not like, for example, when they said wear only one pair of earrings, I did not like it because I had a second piercing, but I followed the counsel that was given from the pulpit. God commands us to follow our Prophet, regardless of our personal issues with whatever topic it may be. I don’t think that that Abraham wanted to sacrifice his son but he was being tested, as we may be right now. The reasons for certain information despensed at certain times is for a specific purpose.
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HEB Reply:
February 22nd, 2012 at 2:52 pm
One other thing, Joseph Smith spoke at the infancy of the restoration of the gospel. We have also been told that the God would never let a Phrophet lead us astray.
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Clare Reply:
February 22nd, 2012 at 3:51 pm
Jenna is her own person and can and should question things. I think it’s so silly when people follow a religion and never have any of their own thoughts. That’s why I can’t get on board with religion…it doesn’t allow people to think for themselves. It is natural as human beings and especially young adults to question our surroundings and our beliefs. We question what we have been taught. Honestly, if you aren’t questioning things you are just a sheep that follows blindly. There is so much more to life than that! I applaud Jenna for thinking her own thoughts and coming to her own conclusions.
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HEB Reply:
February 22nd, 2012 at 5:35 pm
I really appreciate the sheep comment because in our religion, we are taught, in essence, the be the sheep who follow the sheperd. This is where posting something like this confuses people because those who are not of our faith sometimes come to this EXACT conclusion. We are sheep who follow our Lord. Like I have said before, I completely understand how someone who is not of our faith is offended by what I have said.
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February 20th, 2012 on 6:18 pm
I really appreciate your effort to look at your religion critically. It must be very difficult. I should state, I am not Mormon, but am Christian. My grandfather was a minister, but I was not raised to stand in judgment of other’s. That is not my place and when people would say things like “fags will go to hell, etc, etc” my grandfather would always say to me, “The people who get to heaven will be surprised when they get there. It will not look as how they have imagined.”
Keep expanding your mind for you.
Regardless of whether you change your point of view of topics or not, I definitely applaud your efforts to expand your worldview and to look outside of your religion to ask if homosexuality is wrong.
It takes a strong person to do that.
And don’t worry about the haters
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February 20th, 2012 on 11:42 pm
Great post! Did you know that there is an openly gay LDS bishop? He’s not in a relationship, but it’s still very interesting. Here’s his website: http://www.mitchmayne.com/
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Rachel Reply:
February 20th, 2012 at 11:52 pm
He is actually executive secretary In a bishopric. Very different from being the bishop. Still encouraging though.
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February 20th, 2012 on 11:58 pm
Thanks for the clarification! I’m not LDS (and I’m not that knowledgeable) so I did not catch the distinction!
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February 22nd, 2012 on 10:47 am
Jenna,
This is why I keep reading. I’m not LDS and I don’t always agree with you (of course) but I believe we share many of the same ideals and I appreciate the effort you put into thinking through what you believe – and why. That is something I try to do in my own life and it’s so affirming to know there is a community of us out in the world who are doing that work. Congrats on a well-thought-out, well-written and courageous piece.
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February 22nd, 2012 on 4:17 pm
I’m still curious why you even still claim to be LDS. not becuase of your stance on this or whatever but more because in your posts you seem to say alot of how you are disregarding this pamphlet by the church and you aren’t listening to the prophet or this other important person. and you quote prophets and then say i don’t think they know what they are talking about and that they are just a product of their culture. so what is really holding you in the LDS faith? You really just seem confused…or maybe you are thinking about not being LDS? I hope you wrap this series up and tell us if you are sticking with your religion or not and why.
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February 23rd, 2012 on 9:01 pm
Hell yes, Jenna. This post just makes me want to hug you. Over the past ten years my views on homosexuality have done a 180, and I am now a proud support of the LGBTQ community. And I’m a Christian. And I am SO proud of both.
This just makes my heart happy.
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February 26th, 2012 on 9:56 pm
Jenna,
I loved this post so much I featured it for Lots of Link Love over at my blog, Stress Case.
Lots of Link Love is a biweekly link-up where we spotlight our fellow bloggers for exceptional posts they have written over the weeks.
I would love if you shared that you had been spotlighted (there’s a button you can use!) and if you considered linking up with me for the next Lots of Link Love on Thursday, March 8th!
http://stresscasey.blogspot.com/2012/02/lots-of-link-love_22.html
xoxo
Casey
PS I also got the sock bun enhancer yesterday!! Thank you so much!
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March 1st, 2012 on 10:04 am
Jenna, this type of well-written and thoughtful discussion is huge. It really takes a lot to get people to talk so openly and respectfully with one another on a blog. I’m so happy you’re sharing your journey, growth, and helping so many people to have a dialogue about it. As a teacher of topics like this, I know it is not an easy feat to get people to trust you, the space, and to grow together. Your blog and these posts are doing it!
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March 4th, 2012 on 11:24 pm
I just wanted to commend you on your open-mindedness and bravery!It is so rare for some one of strong faith, who is surrounded by conservative people, to make the effort and take the risk to speak out for what you feel is right. I’m a first time reader and I’m agnostic with no religious friends because I find it so hard to relate to conservative people on these kinds of issues. That being said, after reading this post, and a few of your others, I think I could be your friend
I have not read any other comments because I can’t stand when people use something that can be as beautiful and faith and religion and twist it around to support hateful, bigoted prejudices. Thank You.
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March 5th, 2012 on 11:17 am
Such a beautifully written, honest and brave post. Thank you for raising your voice.
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March 6th, 2012 on 10:29 am
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