Last week I talked about where we came from, this week we I’ll cover why we are here and the first step in where we are going.
Birth/Veil
If we lived with God before we were born and were presented with this wonderful plan, why don’t we remember it? In the LDS church we refer to this as “passing through the veil” at birth. This “veil” prevents us from remembering what happened before birth. It is common for members of the church, when describing spiritual experiences to say “the veil was very thin”, etc.
Mortal Life
Once we have passed through the veil we are in the stage of the Plan called mortal life. We are all born with the Light of Christ, what many people refer to as a conscience. This Light influences us to seek for truth and righteousness in our lives.
I’ve spent a little bit of time studying faiths other than my own, and I believe that one thing almost all religions have in common is a belief that there are things we must do in this life to achieve hpapiness (whether that happiness occurs in this life or the next, or both). Through the prophet Joseph Smith, who restored the Church of Jesus Christ to the earth, all of the commandments necessary to achieve that happiness have been revealed. We not only need to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, but we must receive the necessary ordinances to live with Him again. Ordinances are sacred formal acts where we make promises to God and receive promises from Him in return.
In this mortal life it is necessary to receive the ordinances of baptism (symbolizing a new life and commitment), confirmation to receive the Holy Ghost (to receive divine help in following Jesus Christ), receiving the priesthood (the authority for men to perform ordinances and lead the church), the endowment, and being sealed to family and spouse. These ordinances are only available through the Gospel of Jesus Christ and I will describe each these ordinances in detail in future posts.
Spirit World
After death all the spirits of all of those who have ever lived upon the earth are sent to the Spirit World. The Spirit World is not Heaven in the traditional Christian sense of the word. It is where souls reside until they can be judged according to their works and sent to the appropriate Kingdom of God to reside for eternity.
Where is the Spirit World? We don’t know exactly, but the prophet Joseph Smith said that those who have died “are not far from us, and know and understand our thoughts, feelings, and motions, and are often pained therewith”. Prophet Brigham Young stated “Where is the spirit world? It is right here.”
What are the spirits like? Spirit beings have the same bodily form as mortals except that the spirit body is in perfect form (see Ether 3:16). Isn’t it exciting to think that all of the scars and battle wounds we have developed in this life will be eliminated when we die? In the Spirit World we will all have the same thoughts, attitudes, and feelings that we do on earth. (see Alma 34:34). We will have the same appetites and desires that we had when we lived on earth. All of our spirits will be in adult form. We were adults before mortal existence, and we will be in adult form after death, even if we were to die as infants or children.
What do we do in the Spirit World? Those who have received all of the necessary ordinances during mortal life are busy with the work of the Lord. Those were not given the chance to learn about the Gospel of Jesus Christ and accept it are given the chance to do so at this time. Those who rejected the Gospel during Mortal Life, and/or those who reject it in the Spirit World will suffer for their sins because they did not accept the Atonement of Jesus Christ, an act which paid for the sins of all men, eliminating the need for us to suffer for our own mistakes.
I know the Gospel to be true, but sometimes it is difficult to essentially convey the message “This is the only way you can do it.” After thinking about this for a while, thinking about telling this to so many people that I respect and admire I felt a little bit stumped. Then I remembered what Jesus Christ said in Matthew 7:13-14:
13 ¶ Enter ye in at the astrait bgate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to cdestruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
This is not my Gospel, it is His. The necessity of these ordinances makes the work we do in the Temple of the Lord even more meaningful. We go back to the temple over and over to give those living in the Spirit World the opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel. How majestic is this Plan that provides all the spirit sons and daughters of our Father in Heaven the opportunity to choose to live with him again!
January 18th, 2009 on 1:02 am
Hi, I followed your posts as Mrs. Avocado on Weddingbee, and I’m really enjoying hearing your perspective on non-wedding things as well.
I’m a non-Mormon Christian, and I’ve been very interested to read the things that you’ve shared about your Church and beliefs. I had a question about this post; how would you reconcile the teaching you mention about things that you MUST do to be saved with passages like Romans 9 (especially about how God chose Jacob rather than Esau before they were born and had a chance to do right or wrong) or Ephesians 2:8-9? I hope you don’t mind that we stay in the Bible, as I am obviously not familiar with the Book of Mormon.
I hope I don’t come across as offensive, I’d just like to hear your perspective. There’s only so much one can learn about a religion from those who don’t agree with it.
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January 18th, 2009 on 2:10 am
I hope that here I can give you my true thoughts, in an effort to further an understanding of one another’s faith. I do not wish to attack you, or to upset you. I simply would like to facilitate a discussion. I understand that when a person does not believe as you do, it is very easy to get upset with them. I pray that doesn’t happen. I have well intentions and a kind attitude, and I truly hope that comes through. Here goes…
“In the Spirit World we will all have the same thoughts, attitudes, and feelings that we do on earth. (see Alma 34:34). We will have the same appetites and desires that we had when we lived on earth.”
I cannot see that happening. In this world I desire fleshly things, and I desire sinful things. I consider this temptation, and I fight it daily. My thoughts are often terrible, and my feelings are often not Christ-like. I do not wish these thoughts, these desires, these attitudes upon anyone; I most certainly do not wish them on someone residing in the Kingdom of God.
I’m also having an especially hard time when you describe what we do in the Spirit World. In the words of Christ:
“John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
John 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
In short, we make the choice to accept the gift of Jesus Christ’s death when we are here on earth (Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.). When we die, we sleep (Luke 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.). Upon the second coming of Christ, those who believe are raised up (see above).
Reading the Bible, I come to this belief: When we die, we do not go to a Spirit World to reside until judgment day. We sleep until judgment day, which occurs after the second coming of Christ. The words of Jesus, the Scriptures completely refute your assertion that when we die we go to another world to await judgment.
“This is not my Gospel, it is His.” I have a very different idea of His gospel, and as I am under the impression that you believe the Book of Mormon is the completion of the word of God that was begun in the Bible, I have a very hard time reconciling our two beliefs.
I truly hope that I have challenged you Jenna, rather than made you upset. I respect you, and the LDS faith very much and I don’t wish to offend you in any way!
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January 18th, 2009 on 10:00 am
In a bit of an attempt to continue the discussion from Kaitlyn’s comment, every person understands the scriptures in a different way. When she spoke of “when we die we sleep”, I understand that as when we die our physical bodies sleep, not our spirits. No where in that scripture does it say anything about our spirits. When we die our bodies and spirits separate and are not reunited until Christ comes again and we are resurrected. I am not saying that Kaitlyn’s interpretation is wrong, I am just saying that everyone interprets scriptures differently, so therefore, those scriptures that were given do not “completely refute her assertion that when we die we go to another world to await judgement”. Also, the Book of Mormon is not a completion of the Bible, but is a continuation of the Bible. That’s why we have a prophet now to help us interpret the scriptures. We have also not received all of the scriptures because we are not yet ready for them. In John 10:16 “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.” This just says that there are other people out there that Christ talks to other than in Jerusalem where the Bible comes from. Don’t you think that they also kept records? I believe that they did. The Book of Mormon is the records of the people in the Americas and there are more records that we don’t yet know about. That is why we use the Bible and the Book of Mormon and we have a prophet to help us understand each record and to give us more. God still loves his people and he still speaks to us through his prophets.
I don’t know if this is correct or not, “All of our spirits will be in adult form. We were adults before mortal existence, and we will be in adult form after death, even if we were to die as infants or children”, but I know that we are told that in the Millennium if we have lost a child, it is during that time that we will raise him/her. Therefore, we will raise that child from the age of death, not as an adult. You may be right or wrong. This is just something I believe.
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January 18th, 2009 on 10:15 am
Amanda-The information about the adult form of spirits is pulled directly from LDS.org (I should have put it in quotations, as I copy and pasted directly). It’s from Gospel Doctrine, by Joseph Smith.
Remember that the Spirit form of the child is adult, but the mortal body is still that of a child. Before the body and spirit are reunited at the resurrection the body will mature to match the maturity of the spirit.
I think that the idea that many LDS women of how they will “raise” their children during Millennium is misconstrued. Think about it. Many many billions of women have lost children before the age of accountability. Are all of those women going to reside on the earth just raising kids and then disappearing in the twinkling of an eye when the children reach a certain age? I do not believe it is so. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is centered upon the concept of families, and I can’t imagine that all of the women will dwell on earth with the kids while the men hang out in the Spirit World doing genealogy and stuff. Joseph F. Smith said “It matters not whether these tabernacles mature in this world, or have to wait and mature in the world to come, according to the word of the Prophet Joseph Smith, the body will develop, either in time or in eternity, to the full stature of the spirit, and when the mother is deprived of the pleasure and joy of rearing her babe to manhood or to womanhood in this life, through the hand of death, that privilege will be renewed to her hereafter, and she will enjoy it to a fuller fruition than it would be possible for her to do here. When she does it there, it will be with the certain knowledge that the results will be without failure; whereas here, the results are unknown until after we have passed the test.”
Notice he uses the word “there” (in the sentence “when she does it there”). I think you are using the term “raise a child” in the mortal/earthly sense of the world. You think of bottles, diapers, discipline, etc. I think that God will provide a way for these women to experience something even grander. In essence, I believe this promise to mean each woman will have the pleasure of watching her child grow to manhood, while experiencing the satisfaction that comes from knowing their salvation is assured.
I would read this article on the salvation of little children, by Joseph F. Smith: http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=88021b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=51a5f48fa2d20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1
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January 18th, 2009 on 3:55 pm
MrsW-I believe you are essentially asking about the topic of “foreordination.” In the Church we do believe in this concept, but it is a little bit more involved than God saying “I like you so you are going to be a prophet, and I don’t like you so you won’t have anything.” If you read my post last week you learned that we believe we lived in the premortal life with God before we were born. During this time we progressed and developed in our spirituality and talents. Essentially we developed our personalities. We had the freedom to choose to progress, or the freedom not to progress. Those souls, such as Jacob and Esau were distinguished at this time by their individual righteousness and devotion to God.
Once they came to earth, Jacob and Esau were given absolute freedom of choice (agency) like all other souls on earth. I don’t think that God “hates” any of his children, but it is quite possible that these verses teach us that Jacob was very righteous in the pre-existence and Esau was not quite as devoted. Thus God told Jacob that if he stayed true to the faith in this life he would be blessed and become the father of many nations. God did not make that happen, Jacob did. Moses, Adam, Noah, all of the great prophets in the old testament only became such because of the lives they chose to lead. God appeared to them after they proved their own worthiness and desire to follow his teachings.
As far as your questions about Ephesians, it’s definitely something that requires a separate post on it’s own. I don’t think I can give you an answer that will satisfy you, because I cannot take the Book of Mormon out of the picture. The entire LDS faith is based upon the belief that the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ, and that God speaks to his children again in the latter days.
I can tell you my opinion on the verses, but I freely admit that it is based on the revelation we have received from God both in the Book of Mormon and through is Prophets. I believe that Christ is admonishing us that we cannot save ourselves. We needed a Mediator to come in and save us from our sins. We should never say “I am great, I am perfect, I will go to heaven because of what I have done.” We should acknowledge that it ws the Ultimate Sacrifice of Jesus Christ that allows us to return to God once again.
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January 18th, 2009 on 4:33 pm
Kaitlyn-I thought your questions were very well worded. To me they said “I don’t want to attack you and your beliefs because I like you, but I’m very committed to my faith and I don’t understand how you can believe these things which are so very contradictory to the things I believe.”
Without some responses like yours these posts wouldn’t be worth anything. The main purpose of a blog is not only to announce things but to perpetuate discussion. I enjoy learning about different viewpoints, and doing the research and the study it takes to come up with my replies deepens my own understanding of my own faith.
First I think it’s important to establish something that will come up again and again in my Sunday posts. We believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to a man named Joseph Smith and called him to restore the Church of Jesus Christ upon the earth once again. The entire Gospel is based upon one’s acknowledgment that this really happened. If you can believe that, then you can believe that Joseph Smith translated an ancient set of records known as the Book of Mormon, and you can also believe that God speaks to us once again in these days.
I’m often asked to explain things “without the Book of Mormon” or “only using the Bible”. It would be like me asking you to explain a that is fuzzy in the Old Testament, but clear in the New Testament with the rule that you can’t use the New Testament verse to convince me. It wouldn’t work would it? So I will do my best to explain these concepts the way I understand them, but my explanations will always be predicated on the belief that God speaks to us now, through modern revelation and the truths found in the Book of Mormon.
Question 1-The appetites and desires
I’ve talked extensively with my husband about this concept today, and it’s hard to come to an exact conclusion about what that means. It all comes down to how free agency and temptation of the devil interact. We believe that while we were living with God in the premortal life we had the freedom to choose who we wanted to be. We had free agency then. Some had a greater desire to be like God than others.
Then we come to earth, and we are not only given the freedom to choose, but we are tempted by Satan who wants to lead us away from the path of righteousness and toward our destruction. He introduces all of these evil thoughts and feelings and desires into our lives. In the Church we call this part of us the “natural man”, and this natural man is an enemy to God.
Then we die. We go to a place where Satan is not present. But we are still who we are, we still made the choices that we did. Here’s where the grace of God comes in. If we choose to accept the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we do not have to suffer for our sins. Think about your bad thoughts, where did they come from? Did they just spring up in your mind on their own accord? No, they are put their by outside influences. If you accept the Atonement you will be washed clean. These bad things will not be a part of your life. The closer you draw to God, the less you desire these things now, so why should it be any different in the Spirit World?
Essentially the message boils down to the idea that we will all be the same person we are today. The person who is unwilling to believe in Jesus Christ is still going to have a hard time believing in him. Going to the Spirit World isn’t automatically going to turn all of us into Christians.
Question 2: What we do in the Spirit World.
I cannot go through and and refute every single one of the verses you quoted, and I think it would be a waste of time to do so. I will say that my interpretation of Luke 8:52 is Christ saying to those who weep “I have the power to turn death into life.” I do not believe he is literally proclaiming her spirit to be sleeping inside of her body.
This is why I believe so strongly the way I do about death and the Plan. What would you say if I asked you about the billions of people who have lived on earth that were never given the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior? Not those who didn’t listen, but all of those who live in China, Egypt, Africa, South America, and any other place that is either so non-Christian or so remote that the word of God never can reach them. If we simply sleep upon death and then are judged, all of those billions and billions of souls would be sent to Hell because they never accepted Jesus Christ. I do not believe God to be so merciless. But I also believe God must follow his own rules. He has said that we must accept the Atonement to live. He can’t make exceptions for those who don’t do so before they die. I believe that he has provided ALL of his children with a way to return to live with Him again.
Question 3: Is the Book of Mormon the completion of the word of God?
Hip hip hooray it is not! No! How wonderful is that? God speaks to us all the time. The Book of Mormon is ANOTHER testament of Jesus Christ, in addition to the Bible, and the words we have from His living prophets are as well. They all testify of Him.
I’ll do a post on the Bible someday (so so many things to cover!) but one of the things that helps me believe in the Book of Mormon is learning about how the Bible was assembled and brought over thousands of years. In particular, the New Testament books were all different collections of writings by different Apostles written at different times and it was after they had all died that a group got together and assembled them together. Revelation is only at the end because those who assembled the book thought it should be that way. From what I understand the King James Version was translated from Aramaic to Greek to English. Some things were lost, some things were changed because of transcription errors, and some things just don’t translate through so many languages very well.
I’m not saying we don’t believe in the Bible, but I do believe that the Book of Mormon holds the truth because it did not undergo the process described above. It is why we, as members of the Church, will almost always default to defending our beliefs with quotes from the Book of Mormon. We sustain that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God and so we believe the book he translated for us.
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January 18th, 2009 on 6:38 pm
i would personally love more information on why you even believe joseph smith was legitimate… which has always been my… problem(?) with the Mormon faith. seriously. that guy seems completely wacky & random to me. :\
i like these posts though… i love learning about other beliefs… i grew up with a few guys that were Mormons & some lived next to me while they were doing their 2 year mission or what-not and i always found the religion very different.
great topics!
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January 19th, 2009 on 12:12 am
A quick comment on the translation of the KJV — all the original New Testament scriptures were written in Greek, then translated by Saint Jerome into Latin, known as the Vulgate Bible. The KJV is a translation based off of the Vulgate, which, though a valuable source, does have many errors. Many modern Christians believe the English Standard Version, which is based as heavily as possible against very old and reliable Greek manuscripts, to be one of the best translations available today. It’s what I and my husband use, personally.
And on the writing of the New Testament and the assembling of the Canon, it is my understanding that most conservative scholars now believe that all of the books of the New Testament were written well before 100 AD, and they were all assembled and chosen by 400, I think. So not a very long time at all.
Two more Scripture questions:
1. How does your Church choose to interpret Revelation 22:18-19, which says that we are not to add or take away from the prophecy given to us at that time? That is probably the biggest outright reason I have to not believe in the Book of Mormon.
2. In John 10:16 (which I’ve always understood was Smith’s prooftext for the idea of Jesus’s appearance to those of Ancient America, correct me if I’m wrong), when Jesus says that He has sheep not of this sheepfold, He’s speaking directly to the Pharisees (look back into 9:40 to see this). Sorry, I’m going to have to go about this in a roundabout way..
First — each of the Gospels says basically the same thing (Jesus came to die to save sinners), but each speaks to a different group. You can tell from study of the way they are written how this works… Matthew writes to the Jews, so he quotes the OT a lot. Mark writes to the Romans, who were very busy, so he is concise (the shortest gospel). The emphasis in John’s gospel is that Jesus came not just to save the Jews, God’s chosen people, but the Gentiles as well.
So… when Jesus says to the Jews that He has sheep not of this sheepfold, does it not seem a simpler and more historically accurate explanation that He merely means that the Gentiles are His sheep as well as the Jews? I don’t know, maybe this is something that you won’t be able to agree with because of how your system needs to hold together, but I thought I’d bring it up.
Thanks for the good discussion so far — I might come back to the foreordination thing later, but that seems like another place where things that you believe in and I don’t keep us from being able to talk about it really effectively. But it’s so nice to be able to talk like civil human beings with someone that I disagree with on something so fundamental!
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January 19th, 2009 on 12:14 am
Oh, I should have also mentioned that the Pharisees would have been very against the idea of the salvation of the Gentiles.
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January 19th, 2009 on 12:41 am
Jenna, what a lovely response. I did get your email, but I thought it would bring the most benefit to everyone if I commented out here. Hope that’s ok! You definitely got my purpose right. I think that you are lovely, and I think it is so wonderful you are open to discussing your faith with us. I don’t want to take advantage of that privilege in any way!
I loved your analogy: “It would be like me asking you to explain a that is fuzzy in the Old Testament, but clear in the New Testament with the rule that you can’t use the New Testament verse to convince me.” Great point!
My only further comment that I can make is regarding to the accuracy of the Bible and the Book of Mormon.
When I was beginning my path to accepting Jesus Christ, I did quite a bit of research on the Bible, and the denominations of Christianity. I particularly desired to ensure the accuracy of Scripture. There is vast amounts of archeological and historical evidence to support the Bible. I have a New International Version study Bible, which gives tons of reference points, map, alternate translations, etc. It is very thorough, and I believe accurate. MrsW gave a great explanation as well.
As far as the Book of Mormon, which I have researched as well, it is a bit different. The Golden Plates are not available, nor is part of the scrolls of Abraham. Also, there have been thousands of revisions to the Book of Mormon (both significant and minor). Plus, there is not very much archeological or historical evidence of the Book of Mormon. I don’t mean this as an offense to you, only to describe the process that the Book of Mormon has undergone.
I too am glad that we can discuss these points!
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January 19th, 2009 on 8:44 am
Kaitlyn, try this reference to further investigate the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and the “archeological and historical evidence” that supports it: “The Book of Mormon on Trial” by Jack West. I believe you have to purchase it but you may be able to find it in a library. You can read the synopsis here:
http://www.miltonrich.com/about.php?cpage=about&t=synopsis (I am not sure how to add a direct link). Basically it is a comic book where the Book of Mormon is on trial to prove its truthfulness. It is not doctrine but helps one to see the evidence proving it true. “The ultimate objective is for someone to take sincere action and prayerfully read the Book of Mormon, and, with the help of the Holy Ghost, come away with their own testimony of its truthfulness; but some just need a little nudge, something of proven statistics that stimulates their interest and that they can get their teeth into before they are ready for this ideal step”. Hope that you find interest in your research if you so wish to research further. I think I will be looking for this book in a library just because I have heard it is so good!
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January 19th, 2009 on 6:21 pm
Hi Jenna, I wanted to thank you for your posts on the LDS faith and culture. I’m a Christian and my husband was raised LDS by his LDS mother (his father is not LDS) and we even had an LDS-style reception at her ward a few weeks after our actual wedding. Reading about your beliefs in such a straight forward way is helping me to understand my MIL somewhat better, and it has been helping my husband understand more about what his church truly believes. Maybe it’s just his stake he’d grown up in, but some (not everything but some things) seem surprising to him, and it’s helped him to clarify his beliefs! It’s always fun to read your posts and then have a discussion with him intelligently about the belief system he was raised in! It’s not always easy to do, so thank you!
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