My Formspring page has turned into a bit of a fascinating social experiment, with anonymous questioners filling my inbox with questions ranging from the whimsical to the random to the downright rude. Not surprisingly (as this word is used pretty frequently in the comments section on my blog and in posts written by other bloggers who disagree with what I’ve said) a term I see pretty frequently is judge, in all its many forms. Why am I so judgmental? How do I live with myself being such a judgmental jerk? They aren’t going to read my blog anymore because they think I am rude/judgemental/self-righteous/hypocritical/etc.
Source
I’ve had the word judge thrown my way so many times that I realize I’m not sure I even know what it means anymore! So I looked it up on dictionary.com:
–verb (used with object)
6. to pass legal judgment on; pass sentence on (a person): The court judged him guilty.
7. to hear evidence or legal arguments in (a case) in order to pass judgment; adjudicate; try: The Supreme Court is judging that case.
8. to form a judgment or opinion of; decide upon critically: You can’t judge a book by its cover.
9. to decide or settle authoritatively; adjudge: The censor judged the book obscene and forbade its sale.
10. to infer, think, or hold as an opinion; conclude about or assess: He judged her to be correct.
11. to make a careful guess about; estimate: We judged the distance to be about four miles.
12. (of the ancient Hebrew judges) to govern. –verb (used without object)
13. to act as a judge; pass judgment: No one would judge between us.
14. to form an opinion or estimate: I have heard the evidence and will judge accordingly.
15. to make a mental judgment.
Interestingly, none of these definitions seem to have the negative connotations I was expecting. Numbers 8, 9, 10, and 11 are particularly relevant to this discussion I think, as they all indicate that to judge someone/something is simply to make up your mind one way or another. Judging is coming to a conclusion.
Does this mean that commenters and readers would simply like me to stop making decisions or coming to conclusions? This is something you and I do all day long, from the menial decisions surrounding what we would like to eat, where, and when, to the significant choices that deeply affect our lives. Maybe what they/you/I/we mean when we talk about how someone is judging us/being judgmental we really mean that we feel condemned. We not only feel like they came to a conclusion and now hold an opinion, we are convinced that their conclusion belittles/criticizes/denounce/disapproves of/finds fault with/punishes/reproaches/or sentences us.
Today I’m hoping that we can engage in a bit of discussion surrounding the topic of judging. I’ve certainly made mistakes in the past, and will continue to make them, but I work hard to learn from them and figure out how to word my posts so that my sentences don’t come off as condemnation. I’m always going to have opinions, and I enjoy communicating them so publicly, but as I wade into the mommy blogging world I’m realizing that this is a two way street. Just as I feel that I have a responsibility to edit for tone and consider how my message will be interpreted by different viewpoints, I think the reader also has a responsibility to step back and say “Just because this writer thinks soda is addicting and inhibits weight loss doesn’t mean she thinks I am a fat addict.” X does not always equal Y. If I write that I think c-sections should be a last resort due to possible dangerous complications for mother and higher NICU admission rates for baby, I’m not condemning you as a bad person for having one. I judge that vaginal birth, if at all possible, is best, and I don’t think there is any harm in holding that opinion. Judgement does not equal condemnation.
I’d love to see some discussion in the comments regarding what makes you feel condemned. If the problem is with my writing, maybe you could point me toward an opinionated blogger who holds opposing viewpoints that doesn’t make you feel the way I do? What kind of language/phrases make you feel judged in a negative way?
February 2nd, 2010 on 8:58 am
As soon as I started reading That Wife (as an offshoot of my adoration of the Avo wedding) I KNEW that people were going to get all riled up about your posts. My unsolicited take on this is because blog reading is a personal endeavor. We sit down independently and read and consume others’ thoughts, insights and judgments with our personal lenses and filters attached. Sometimes we get so wrapped up in the intimacy of blog reading, it’s easy to forget that the writer isn’t engaged in a one on one discussion with you, the reader. For example, I sometimes feel my blood pressure rise when you talk about your faith because we would, if you and I talked one on one, get very passionate about some of our positions. I think that others have the same reaction but do not have the foresight, maturity or wherewithal to separate the feelings of individual reader and blog community member before posting comments. If these people are so offended, I really wish they would quit reading and stop harassing you and your husband. You don’t force you blog on your readers and we shouldn’t force our negative energies on you.
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Jenna Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 12:35 pm
This comment made me realize how ineffective discussion can be in a blog format. If we were to sit down and discuss things face-to-face the conversation would go so much different than it does online.
Not to mention, when I get really worked up in a conversation I often cry (not on purpose, it’s just one of my “things”), which can really effect how the conversation goes. But when I’m worked up on the blog you don’t really get that emotion unless I’m being snarky. Snarkiness seems to translate really well.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 9:07 am
Hi Jenna,
This is the first time I’m commenting on your blog - so, hi! - but I am really interested in your experiences with being referred to as ‘judgmental.’ I, personally, have never found you particularly so, even though I may not share all of your opinions or conclusions or assumptions. I appreciate your posts on your pre- and postnatal choices and hopes for labour and delivery (I’m almost 29 weeks along, myself!), because I’m interested in how another’s experience of the same event (pregnancy) can bring her to a similar or differing conclusion to my own. I feel strongly about my own responses to my experience of and hopes for this pregnancy, and I have laid out my ‘plans’ accordingly; you do exactly the same, and I like very much how seriously you take the development of the child within you and the changes in your own body and family instead of just being a passive consumer. I read your posts, and reject or accept them as they stack up against my own research, experience and desires - if they don’t align, no harm no foul to either of us. I don’t think there’s anything intrinsically negative in looking your experiences and your desired outcomes square in the eye, evaluating them and determining your course of action based on them; after all, everyone does it every day, no matter whether they publicly declare their decision-making processes or not! And by the way, this is YOUR blog, filled with your opinions, your life, etc. So really, you can post whatever you feel like, and your readers can use their judgement skills to keep on reading or move on to more suitable pastures.
Keep the research and writing coming! I, for one, like to know how others are preparing for their Big Day!
Holly
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Jenna Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 12:41 pm
We’re only one week apart! Hope your feet are swelling a little bit less than mine are.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 9:23 am
I’d like to first say that nothing you have ever written made me feel condemned. Though you have said some things that have convicted me. This I view as a positive. What I do with my convictions (recognize and change something about my actions, or blast you for making me feel uncomfortable) is another issue. But even if I choose the later response, who is really at fault? I would have to say that I, myself, am at fault. Your posts on the LDS faith, in particular, have driven me deeper into the scriptures to find truth. Conviction. Your posts on pregnancy have made me think more about home birth and whether that’s right for me. Conviction.
In both these cases I’m not ready to accept either the LDS faith or a home birth, but the conviction has driven me to ponder these things seriously.
You and I will never always agree. No two people do. And the person who feels condemned or unfairly judged because of a disagreement, is someone, in my opinion, that doesn’t truly have confidence in the choices they made or the things they believe. Perhaps the choices they made were not ideal; they don’t have confidence in that choice. We all make mistakes. But when mistakes are made we must own responsibility of that, not continue to tell people we did the right thing.
No one likes being wrong. As humans, our selfish pride would rather us turn the blame to someone else, and continue to tell ourselves we are right, no matter how ridiculous we look while screaming till we’re blue. Kinda like a ‘cut-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face’ deal.
As a society, we tout tolerance of different people and ideas. How quickly we attack one another when the tolerance is inconvenient. If this truly is a nation of tolerance, be tolerant of disagreement, people.
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Jenna Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 12:47 pm
A brave comment my dear, since I expected people to jump all over you for this sentence “And the person who feels condemned or unfairly judged because of a disagreement, is someone, in my opinion, that doesn’t truly have confidence in the choices they made or the things they believe.”
I completely agree though. As I was writing this post I was trying to think of instances where I felt condemned and of course the recent run-in with my relative and the “fake post” she tried to post on my blog came to mind. I admit to feeling frustrated by her approach and lack of respect toward me, but it was an instance where I further realized how confident and strong I feel in my choices. I didn’t feel the need to justify my actions to her because she had made it clear her mind wasn’t open enough to listen. And I think that is where judgement comes in, when we are so close-minded that we won’t even explore the option of hashing out our disagreements in an adult manner.
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Kristin Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 1:17 pm
Ha, I’m a bit surprised myself that I haven’t drawn out the crazies!
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February 2nd, 2010 on 9:47 am
Like Kristin, I have never felt “condemned”. Guilty, maybe, but not because of anything you said. I will try to explain: you are so knowledgable about home birth and doulas and you are so strong in your convictions about how you will give birth to/feed/raise your baby and I think it’s safe to say you trend toward a more “granola” approach to childbirth
. I’m pregnant, due around when you are, and I feel guilty because you know so much more than I do. Then, I also feel maybe a little ‘judged’ because I see doctors and midwives at my practice, am interested in natural childbirth but not married to the idea, and all I know about breastfeeding is that I’ll give it my best shot. The feeling judged comes in any time you encounter someone who *knows* they are right (not that you are saying you know exactly what’s right, but you have made it clear this is right for you). And I think it’s natural when you come up against someone who knows what’s right, if you don’t 100% agree with them it can start to feel like they are saying you are wrong for not doing it that way. Does that make sense?
Either way, I read your blog because I like it, think you are interesting and because you are pregnant and I am too. I don’t read every post, because I know I won’t agree. And why do people take time out of their lives to say mean/rude things to you?
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February 2nd, 2010 on 10:19 am
As I emailed you yesterday, you and I have very different belief systems. I admit that on occasion, my defenses have gone up at some statements you’ve made. But I don’t think it’s because you phrased them a certain way… I think it’s because - to repeat myself - our belief systems are different.
You are a good writer, and you aren’t afraid to speak your mind or to put your ideas plainly. All of which are reasons that I come back to read your blog daily.
But I think maybe the subjects you touch on are themselves polarizing… maybe not so much the way you speak about them. I’m not saying you SHOULDN’T address them at all, by the way. It’s just that if someone brings up a controversial topic - abortion, homosexuality, breastfeeding, etc. - I think people are always going to have strong reactions. The only way to not elicit strong responses would be to be completely unbiased one way or the other. (And even then, you might get strong reactions!) But that wouldn’t be you. That would be emotionless fact reporting. Which I can get via medical journals or newspapers.
In any case, I don’t think you or your wording are to blame here. This is your personal space. You are entitled to your beliefs and the expression of those beliefs. If anyone is at “fault,” I think it is people who get so fired up they can’t express themselves in a judicious and thoughtful manner. Attacking someone for what they write is not a way to convince them to see your side.
Sorry for the novel. I love your blog, Jenna, and I reiterate that you are a strong and brave person for being so up front with your life, beliefs, and perspectives.
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Evelyn Reply:
February 2nd, 2010 at 12:14 pm
You make such an interesting point about how when a controversial subject is brought up, it insights strong reactions. I think it’s very true!
One of the problems I see is that a lot of people (especially in the commenting/blogging sphere) don’t seem to be willing to accept a difference of opinion and still be respectful of the other person in disagreement. It seems discussions are either based on convincing the person (in this case, Jenna) she is wrong to try and convert her to their way of thinking, or insulting/demeaning her and telling her she is a bad person for thinking such thoughts.
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*M Reply:
February 2nd, 2010 at 1:08 pm
I think you’ve hit the proverbial nail on the head!
), but the problem is people want one sided free speech - what they think! I think it was best said in American President: “You want free speech? Let’s see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who’s standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can’t just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Now show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then, you can stand up and sing about the “land of the free”.”
Everyone has different opinions (and thats fine! Hello basis of this country!… hmm - or at least USA in case there are international readers here!
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Paige Reply:
February 2nd, 2010 at 7:09 pm
Yes,but that is also the point on the other side- that Jenna can be judgmental to the point of condemnation and is not tolerant of other opinions (or at least sometimes comes off that way).
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Jenna Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 12:52 pm
But I’m not sure I understand what “being intolerant” is in this context. I don’t censor comments, which I think is the way you are intolerant on your blog, and I don’t single people out in my posts to shoot them down and make them feel bad (well except one time with that troll Ashley).
It seems as though your suggestion is that to be tolerant I must AGREE with opposing viewpoints, which I’m not going to do if it doesn’t sit right with my beliefs. I think opening up for discussion and allowing comments to be seen publicly is just about as tolerant as I need to be.
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Ashley Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 2:06 pm
I think that what the “intolerant” thing is that you have this way of completely dismissing any oppopsing viewpoint without even stopping to consider it. It’s like you’ve been so indoctrinated that whenever you see something you disagree with, your eyes completely glaze over and your brain shuts off.
For example, this entire post. You say that many comments are accusing you of “being judgmental”. So you go online and find one source of definitions and then argue that you completely disagree with what so many people are saying, and dismiss all of their comments.
I had another paragraph here, but I deleted it upon realizing that it seemed mean to your religion. If you are still interested, I could expand, but suffice it to say that sometimes I think religious extremeism oftentimes involves ignoring factual evidence.
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Jenna Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 12:49 pm
I’ve found that the polarizing topics cause me the most anguish (it’s hard to have people disagree with you over and over!) but are also the most addicting to write about because I enjoy reading through the responses.
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Penny Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 2:57 pm
Well, lots of people write about polarizing topics. I think the trick is tone. Most mature, adult people don’t take issue with disagreement - but they DO take issue with a tone that communicates that the speaker/writer thinks you are less intelligent/wrong for making your own decision.
This part is difficult to write in a way that doesn’t sound judgemental on MY part (ha!) but this particular comment of yours makes it sound like you actually enjoy riling up negativity, in which case, I am not sure why you wrote this post in the first place! Hopefully, I am just reading you wrong.
I hope this doesn’t come off mean, because I certainly don’t intend it that way (I think you’re great!) but I think you are wise enough to know when you are inciting negativity. Most topics can be written in a way that communicates your message, but has the intention to provoke meaningful discussion for purposes of learning (including your own learning), not judgement. To me, judgement and discernment are two different things: judgement provokes anger and shame; discernment encourages good choices and love.
An example: Kimberly Michelle’s blog. The times she has written about topics close to her own heart are written in a way so people hear her, even if they disagree.
Hopefully, I have written this in a way that does NOT sound like judgment, but meaningful discussion. You should of COURSE write the way you want to write, even if it’s not really the way I choose to write!
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Jenna Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 1:35 am
Oh yes, my intention was to suggest I like topics that incite discussion and the greatest number of viewpoints, NOT the ones that generate a lot of negative comments. When lots and lots of negative comments come in I find myself avoiding my inbox, whining to TH a lot more, and feeling a bit down on myself. Certainly not a situation I like to put myself in. Unfortunately I’m still rather naive in so many areas, and my self-editing isn’t strong enough to separate my emotions from my writing to the point where I can *always* tell how things are going to be received. The comments on this post have been somewhat along the lines of what I anticipated (although I was surprised by the number of “I don’t agree with you but I still like reading” what a refreshing thing to read!) but sometimes.. I’m just not getting back what I anticipated. Which means it’s time to re-evaluate and figure out a new approach, whether that approach is changing my views, or enlisting others to help me edit and present a second viewpoint on the topic.
I’ll be thinking on your sentences about judgement and discernment though. I like the differences you pointed out.
Lemon still has a few years on me, hopefully by the time I reach her age I’ll be as thoughtful as she is on ALL the posts I write.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 10:26 am
I enjoy your posts and don’t consider them offensive. God gave us judgment for a reason — to consider facts and make decisions!
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February 2nd, 2010 on 10:29 am
I think this is a fascinating post. For those of us who hold strong beliefs, including some that might not match “popular” current beliefs, being labeled “judgmental” is a constant risk. But I think what people are really saying when they call you judgmental is that their feelings are hurt because they feel you are personally saying something negative about them. I think the key is to come at all opinions from a place of love, not condemnation. After all, the Bible does say the measure we use to judge others is what will be used against us. Keeping that in mind, it’s best to cut people some slack whenever we can, keeping in mind that we are all human!
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Jenna Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 12:54 pm
And I think this is what I struggle with. I’m not sure what I need to change so that I’m not coming off as personally attacking peoples choices. Most of the time it feels like people interpret the words in their own personal way and get hurt, something I can’t really prevent.
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malex Reply:
February 5th, 2010 at 9:44 pm
When you intimate that homosexuality is a “choice,” it is not only inaccurate, but extremely offensive.
You belong to a religious group that made a CHOICE to attack the rights of another group of citizens (Prop H8)merely because your religion of CHOICE chooses to believe offensive and inaccurate things about gay people.
You also frequently argue that LDS members are discriminated against because of what they believe, but you see know hypocrisy in discriminating against people because of who they ARE.
If Mormons don’t want to marry gays in their church, that’s fine. But when the Mormon church spent time, money and effort to prevent homosexuals from being able to marry at all, you crossed a line.
The LDS faith (or any other faith for that matter) has no right to sit in judgement of others.
You get very upset when people “judge” the Mormon faith for it’s many unusual beliefs, but yet you see no hypocrisy in judging homosexual people for being BORN the way they are.
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Jenna Reply:
February 5th, 2010 at 9:49 pm
We weren’t talking specifically about homosexuality here as I’ve never said it is a choice. You, with your assumptions about what I believe, came to that conclusion on your own.
And for those who argue that we will never have to worry about people sueing to marry in the Church (I think largely what we are trying to protect) I refer you to this story on NPR. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91486340
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Cristin Reply:
February 7th, 2010 at 10:20 am
WOW - Jenna, I had not read that NPR story. That is extremely interesting. It is my understanding that most churches open their doors to the public during the day for prayer, for meals, for free bathroom use (true story - NYC!). I wonder if they are considered private property or if they would be subject to the same sort of rental/use agreements as the pavilion.
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Jenna Reply:
February 12th, 2010 at 8:32 pm
I have no idea, but even more than the church story, the story about the photographer worries me! I’m glad I read that, I’ll be careful what kind of language I use when dealing with people.
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malex Reply:
February 9th, 2010 at 10:43 pm
Jenna,
Your church refuses to marry people who aren’t of your faith. Heck, you won’t even let non-Mormons in to see their own children get married.
Your church is CLOSED to the general public already, so don’t try to pretend the NPR story you referenced has any bearing on the Mormon Church.
Trying to pretend that PropH8 was about protecting your property rights is just pathetic. I really thought you were more honest than that.
And, if you admit it’s NOT a “choice,” how in the hell do you justify the blatant discrimination practiced by your church and others?????
Are you saying it’s okay to discriminate against people for something they are BORN with?
Your church has a DISGRACEFUL record of discrimination both racial and sexual and no weaselly quoting of NPR stories will change that FACT.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 10:30 am
I agree with Kristin’s observation that many times people who feel “judged” by others choices or opinions just reflect a lack of confidence in their own decision making, choices, or opinion. Our society is far too sensitive, since when do we need everyone’s approval??? It is mature to be able to hear and be exposed to opposing viewpoints. For this reason, I find your blog to be very refreshing, even though I may not always agree with you, because you don’t make any excuses for who you are, what you believe, and are brave enough to share your life with us. Not only do you give us a glimpse of your life, but you allow us to comment. That’s a gift that we (the readers) can take or leave. I hope that the readers who can’t handle the possible opposing view and are so terribly offended by you realize that no one is forcing them to read and choose to do something less hazardous for their mental health.
Again, thanks for sharing, reading your blog is refreshing, and constructive for me. It helps me evaluate certain views that I have, reinforcing them or challenging them.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 10:41 am
Well a blog is something personal where you express your opinion and what you feel is right or wrong.
Your blog however has a lot of data to back you up and I guess at times it might be taken almost like a research article and as is it will make people who have different opinion react.
I think as said above we as readers can take some things personally when you present something that way.
I think we as readers just need to remind ourselves that we are reading a blog and not the national medical bulletin or something of the sort.
Maybe you need a disclaimer
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Jenna Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 12:55 pm
Funny you should mention research. Someone on Formspring asked if I was worried I might get sued! Can you imagine someone sueing me for writing my posts?
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Cécy Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 9:16 pm
That would be bad for blogging!
I can’t imagine what you could be sued for anyway.
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Cristin Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 8:15 am
you are no more likely to get sued that the NY Times. Both of you cite and discuss medical studies - neither of you are responsible for my decisions! I brought up an NYTimes article (and the JAMA article it cited) to my doctor and he refused to even listen to what I had to say, because (in his opinion) if I was the kind of patient who trusted the NY Times, then he was never going to convince me he was right.
We’ve parted ways
But my point was - why do some commenters think that some readers are going to take what you say as gospel? Its like those commenters are out to “save” the rest of the readers, but I’m not sure why they are throwing themselves on the sword over this.
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Evelyn Reply:
February 5th, 2010 at 9:00 pm
Haha… so true about some commenters thinking they have to “save” the rest of the readers… like we don’t have brains and the ability to reason and discern and decide for our own selves if we agree, disagree, should research a subject more, etc.
When I was pregnant with my first my options for care were really limited due to our location, so when the doctor dismissed my concerns and feelings, I called my friend who was preparing to enter the same field. She not only told me my concerns or requests were valid and reasonable, she gave me the studies that currently practicing doctors use to guide their decisions for care which also backed up my requests. I love having that, but this time I don’t really need it since I’m with a practice of midwives.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 10:51 am
I think you do a great job Jenna! That’s why I keep following your blog. I think you are brave to present your “judgments” (they used to be call Opinions) in such a public forum and open yourself up to such criticism.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 11:16 am
I just wanted to chime in and say that I love your blog and have been following for a while. I also follow on twitter as possiblymaybe. I never have any negative feelings after reading your blog, only positive ones. I need to start commenting more!
I promise, I will start!
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February 2nd, 2010 on 11:18 am
I have to tell you - I have been judgemental of you in the past…but I continue to read because I love hearing opposite viewpoints of mine on lots of topics. The time I can recall that I was offended was when you likened childbirth to mountain climbing. I am the person that is optiong for a c-section from the start. Regardless of how that child comes into this world, we created it, and we will bring it in and raise it and give it unconditional love. I felt that our choice was kind of attacked in that post. Your views on the matter (or any matter from what I have seen) were not worded poorly or offensively by any means. Its just that the overall tone was almost degrading, in that you thought if a mother didnt at least attempt natural childbirth, she wasnt really as much of a mother as one who had. Perhaps that isnt what you were saying, but that is a case of intent versus perception, and my perception was just that. I dont judge you for wanting an at-home birth, provided you are safe and fully prepared (which, quite clearly you are) so I’d expect the same in return.
Unlike some previous posters, I dont feel insecure about my decisions at all, and that is not why I took offense to that particular posting. I took offense because what I got out of it was “my way is better than yours” and though there was research to back up your beliefs, you seemed almost closed minded about anyone elses choices - that was my issue.
I do think the blog world (readers especially) need to realize that each blogger writes THEIR opinion…and regardless of their view, unless it is downright ignorant or inappropriate (which you are not Jenna) then there isnt really a place for the rude comments or personal attacks. We’re all adults here, I do think we can have a grown up discussion without brashness.
That aside Jenna, I loved following your wedding and continue to love following this blog. Keep on going, and know that you are NOT the only one who gets attacking comments.
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Gigi Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 9:09 am
I agree with this, I think that was one of the most devisive posts for me. It was the fact that the c- section/ mountain post basicially stated that those who have c sections are taking the easy way out.
Then, taking that paired with the most recent post about how Jenna will likely not breast feed, and how she shouldn’t be judged for that. I agree that we should be careful in judging the “best” decisions that mothers make for their children.
But, those two posts for me seemed to contradict eachother. The c-section post seemed very judgemental regarding women who make decisions other than what Jenna is hoping for, while the breast feeding/ formula post was along the lines of “sometimes the decisions we make are the best for our situation”.
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Sophia Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 11:23 am
Regarding the breastfeeding issue, Jenna has made a few posts in the past regarding having had a breast reduction, so I assumed this was the reason she wouldn’t be able to breastfeed when she mentioned it in the post. This may be an incorrect assumption, but my friend who had a breast reduction cannot breast feed either. Also, Jenna, I hope it’s not weird that I’m commenting on it, haha
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Sophia Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 11:24 am
But regarding those two posts specifically- while I am an avid supporter of natural childbirth and healthy birthing education and alternatives, I could see how, as a pregnant woman going into a c-section that post could have affected me strongly in a negative way.
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Jenna Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 1:04 pm
Not weird at all! Would only be weird if I hadn’t written about how I had one. Then I would be wondering what kind of crazy stalker you must be to have found that out.
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Sophia Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 5:47 pm
Haha, I laughed out loud at the stalker comment
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Jenna Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 1:02 pm
Just wanted to point out something that was misinterpreted. I said “As will possibly be the case with myself, for some breastfeeding isn’t an option due to biological/emotional/economical reasons. ”
Emphasis on possibly, as I think breastfeeding is never a for sure thing for ANY woman (there are even variations from baby to baby) and it’s unrealistic to assume anything different.
And maybe you saw a difference in the two posts because I’ve grown a bit. Hopefully?
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Jenna Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 12:59 pm
Though I have no intention of retracting that post (I’ve been asked if I would) I do regret not running it by someone to see how my views were being conveyed. What I came across as saying was “augmentations are the easy way out”, and what I wanted to say was “I think augmentations often make you MISS OUT” on things. I.E. You are whisked up to the top of the mountain and a huge part of that experience is gone forever. Most women want to skip that part though so I don’t think most can understand this view
It was a good experience for me though because I felt like I had the chance to grow personally and make adjustments to the way I present things. Thanks for taking the time to leave your comment here, it only helped me further reevaluate and decide what changes to make in the future.
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Kelly Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 10:46 am
oh goodness Jenna, I would never expect you to retract a post . That is pure selfishness to ask for that - that is equal to someone saying “your view is wrong, mine is right.” Not ok. But I do appreciate your clarification and clearly, you havent lost me (or many many other readers as it appears) due to some unintentional confict. It happens =o)
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February 2nd, 2010 on 11:19 am
i can’t offer anything of substance that hasn’t already been noted. you and i differ on many topics you cover in your blog; however, i like your writing, i find your choice of posts interesting and refreshing and (perhaps most of all) i enjoy the differences between us. despite our differences in opinion/lifestyle/faith/etc, i haven’t ever felt any judgment while reading this blog. if i had, i don’t think i would continue reading.
i’m with sarah, keep presenting your judgments. they are, in fact, informed opinions.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 11:22 am
I think this post is a bit disingenuous. Dictionary definitions of “to judge” aside, I think we all know the negative connotations of “judgmental” and how being judgmental is different than the abstract meaning of judge. And saying “gee, well the dictionary definition just means to come to a conclusion, what’s wrong with that people” doesn’t address whether you’re judgmental and implicitly criticizes the commenters who described you as such. (FYI, I’m not one of them.)
Frankly, I think it’s your prerogative whether to be judgmental or not; it’s your blog. But if this is an honest attempt to try to use more open language and express your opinion in a way that welcomes and respects disagreement more than you have done so in the past (and I don’t mean to imply that you haven’t in the past), I think it may be setting off on the wrong foot.
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Jenna Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 1:06 pm
I’m not saying that judgemental can’t be used the way we describe it, I think it’s just been bastardized a bit.
I guess I’m not sure what you think would be a good way to make changes happen? I was hoping to imply that I am not solely the problem here, that maybe readers need to make some adjustments to the way they are coming to conclusions as well.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 11:34 am
I disagree with you on so many things. Gay rights, religion, gender roles… And the reason that I have continued to read (and spend a ridiculous amount of time commenting) is because I think you write about all subjects (whether I disagree or not) in a fair and respectful way. I have never felt judged for supporting gay marriage, being agnostic, delaying getting pregnant until I’m 30, not wanting to be a SAHM, and watching Friends. In fact, I think I have become less judgmental (and I am - we all are - quite judgmental) as a result of reading this blog.
For example, I used to have a very negative opinion of Mormons. I judged them to be self-righteous and anti-women and I disliked the culture of marrying super young, having lots of babies, and women going to college to get an MRS. I now have a much, much more favorable opinion of the LDS as I was informed (by this blog) in an very non-judgmental way. I now know more than just the stereotypes and can list numerous strengths I think the church has. I’m going to remain agnostic - but I no longer have a negative opinion of the church.
I also once laughed at water births and Jenna’s posts have made me think more about the type of birth I want to have (still not pregnant) and I think if I had felt judged for wanting a hospital birth, I wouldn’t have been open to the posts on midwives and birthing centers. I now intend on using a birthing center.
This comment is yet again too long - but to summarize, I think the people that think this blog is judgmental are:
1.) New - and haven’t had the context of other posts.
2.) Very convicted of their decision, and thus feel judged when someone has come to another decision
3.) Read to many mommy blogs FULL of judgment and assume this is a mommy blog. It’s not a mommy blog. There is no automatic music, no 500 badges, no flashing lights and pink background. Labor, parenting, being a spouse - all of these things are difficult. We let people do things the way that works for their family - they don’t need our judgment. Jenna isn’t telling us how to do things, she is sharing how she has chosen to do things for her and her family.
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Sophia Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 11:30 am
I agree with Erin, in that you and I have very, very different viewpoints on a variety of things, but your blog is one of my favorite to read. I am a very opinionated, liberal, activist kind of girl who doesn’t just have opinions but generally writes them to her reps and writes them on protest signs, haha, and yet even when you have a polar opposite opinion to me I enjoy reading about it and I have become more laid back about the ability for two opinions on different ends of the spectrum to be able to co-exist happily together.
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Amy Carter Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 1:51 pm
I really think it is hilarious how so many of us are so different from you, yet we still continue to read your blog! I am just like Sophia and Erin in that my political, spiritual, and cultural beliefs are almost polar opposites from yours, but I enjoy reading about your life and your decisions. I comment with my opinion when I feel strongly, but (I hope) I am never mean or hurtful. It is good for people to engage in debates and stretch their argument muscles - comes in handy in many aspects of our lives.
I also hate the word “judgemental” when used in the way you discussed your readers sometimes use it. Makes me cringe…
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Jenna Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 1:10 pm
“There is no automatic music, no 500 badges, no flashing lights and pink background.”
You wouldn’t want a musical jukebox playing the latest Taylor Swift or Michael Buble song playing every time you visit the main site? I thought that was just what the site needed!
It’s interesting that you still don’t consider this a mommy blog, even though as a pregnant woman 75% of my posts now concern my pregnancy! I kind of wonder what it will be like after baby comes. I’m thinking that for awhile the child will be new and exciting and I will have a lot to say about how darling s/he is, but then I will get over that and realize that my blog is my outlet for having a life outside of mommyhood!
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Molly Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 8:38 am
Haha I wonder if I’m starting to bore my readers since basically every post is about my pregnancy now. But I can’t help it! It’s what’s on my mind.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 11:35 am
That photo scares me!
I think everybody judges. The thing that bothers me is when people tell others how to live their lives without being teachable themselves. Also, I don’t react well to people who are long on opinions but short on love/compassion. I certainly have strong opinions on many things, but I try to be cognizant of that line between personal opinion and acting like I know what’s right for everyone… because really, everyone only knows what’s right for themselves. Unless you are a deity of some sort, obviously.
Just my 2 cents.
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Anne Reply:
February 2nd, 2010 at 4:39 pm
Agreed 100%, and very well said!
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February 2nd, 2010 on 11:41 am
Well…in terms of breastfeeding, natural births, etc. I’ve loved everything you’ve written. Both my sisters were born at home and I grew up without vaccinations and such. I love it all. And I feel like those issues, as dividing as they can be, are not issues that I would feel judged on from having differing opinions.
The only times that I’ve felt hurt/judged is reading about your beliefs on gay folks and our rights. I grew up in a very conservative environment (was homeschooled K-12, didn’t wear pants, no rock music, etc), I wasn’t Mormon, but we were fundamentalist Christian. My faith is still very important to me, but I’ve shifted to a more progressive denomination. Sooo, your beliefs are familiar, in that I’ve heard and felt their effects for many years in my own personal life. I’ve been though ex-gay therapy and the whole shabang. And I’m very familiar with all the traditional scriptural arguments against it. I love your photography and it breaks my heart to think that you might not photograph my wedding if I asked, or that if we were friends you might not let your children play with mine, or that you might campaign against my right to get married. Now, those are all total assumptions on my part, and please let me know if I’m wrong!
All that being said, this is YOUR blog. You have the right to write whatever you want on it! And people should not be harassing you, your family, or anything else on here! It’s hateful! I would feel horrible if someone got on my blog and left mean notes. I mean, I know that happens in the blogosphere and all, but it’s not ok.
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Jenna Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 1:19 pm
Gabby, it’s so nice to hear a little bit about your background and lifestyle choices and know that you are still here reading and commenting. The topic of gay rights is SO tough, although it sounds like you have a good understanding of where the belief system is founded (interestingly, I don’t think I’ve actually sat down and had a conversation about gay rights with very many people with a strong religious background now that I think about it).
And to answer your assumptions. I probably wouldn’t photograph your wedding (long long answer for this one, but to sum it up, my business is a business and it’s important that I choose to work with clients that further the direction I would like my business to go, if that makes any sense). I do know that my friend (also LDS) is photographing the adopted daughter of a lesbian couple her boyfriend knows, and both of us agree that we would have no problem with working with them or any other similar situations. The whole no wedding thing is about how huge of an investment a wedding is for me in terms of time poured into the project. Especially with baby on the way, I only have so much time I can give and I feel it’s important to choose wisely where that time goes in order to maximize my growth. I would have no problem with my kids playing with yours. I wouldn’t go out of my way to actively campaign, but if the Church asked it of me I would do it. That one is tough, but I believe the leaders are inspired, just like Noah or Moses, even though it’s something that is not something people such as yourself agree with.
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Ashley Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 1:59 pm
The question of gay rights is NOT SO TOUGH. That’s like saying “The question of women’s rights is so tough.” I honestly cannot understand why you have such a hard time with understanding equal rights for all humans. Why do you think this is a tough issue?
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Evelyn Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 10:13 pm
The question of gay rights is viewed differently by different parties. While one party may view it as a right issue others view it as a moral issue. I believe those are the two most basic outlooks, but I’m sure there are many diverging views on it as well.
When one seeks to understand another they are generally able to see why the other may have difficulty with a certain position. Perhaps you might give that a try since you seem to not understand why Jenna would feel it is so tough?
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Ashley Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 12:39 am
I do completely understand where she’s coming from. And in many cases, I DO adjust my world view to accomodate other views. But I understand where Jenna is coming from in the same way that I understand how the cultural situation post Civil War led to the rise of the KKK, and how the political climate in Germany in the 1930′s lead to the Nazi ideology.
When it comes down to “rights versus morals”, it always falls on the rights side. Why? Because you have the RIGHT to believe whatever you want to believe, including whatever morals you want, but you do not have the right to take away any other human’s ability to live their life to the fullest.
So when Jenna says that should her church ask her to crusade against gay rights she absolutely will, I DO understand where she’s coming from.
Tolerating intolerance and bigotry is something I struggle with- in my quest to be a Righteous Person, I find it difficult to find a balance between tolerating the intolerant and fighting for those rights that SHOULD BE AVAILABLE TO ALL PEOPLE.
I think it comes down to personal freedom. You are free to believe what you want to believe and act in the manner you deem to be right. HOWEVER, the second you infrige upon my right to do the same, that needs to be dealt with.
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Gabby Reply:
February 5th, 2010 at 12:16 am
Jenna,
Thanks for taking the time to reply - it means a lot!
You don’t see a lot of queer folks who come out of a religious background and still consider themselves religious. Sadly, most of us have such rough times growing up that it pushes us away from religious communities for a long time, that and depending on where you live it can be very difficult to find churches/temples/etc where you came be comfortable and open about yourself. I think the fact that I’m still involved in the church is a huge blessing and a testament to the fact God has a plan for me.
The issue of inspired leadership is hard, and one that I don’t understand, as I’ve not grown up believing that at any point in my life. We’ve always seen both biblical figures and particularly modern day faith leaders, be they local pastors or national figures, as just regular women and men whom God has called for spiritual leadership. I can see how if you believe your leaders are more than that, you would want to follow their directives. I know that some LDS people have figured out how to navigate that in their minds (ie. http://www.affirmation.org), but it’s not a mindset I’m familiar with. It’s sad, I know a number of gay former LDS and they are so deeply spiritually wounded from their experiences regarding their sexuality with the church. I know a lot of LGBT religious folks are really praying for change in the LDS church because ya’ll obviously have some kick butt organizing and resources around things when you want to (Prop 8), but we’d sure like to see that devoted in what I believe to be more positive and loving directions!
Ashley, believe me, I know what you’re saying, but it is a tough issue when one idea is all you’ve known or believed or been taught. Believe me, I was there at one point in my life. Who knows when I would have questioned it if I hadn’t started liking the ladies!!
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February 2nd, 2010 on 11:56 am
Jenna, I love your writing. I have considered this post and explored how I feel about the idea of being judged and making judgements. I believe that a person’s judgements are more palatable to me when they are grounded in fact and not in emotion. I am completely behind you on your posts about birth, weight loss, healthy weight, budgeting, and other issues. I am also supportive of many of your less fact-grounded posts & tweets & formspring answers (read: your opinions). Examples of these include your thoughts on child-raising (don’t drown your kids in activities!), financial priorities (not the nursery!), your Sunday posts, and your posts about relationships and intimicy.
To specifically answer your questions, I have felt “condemned” twice during my time on your blog. Following are my recollections, although I am not going to wade through old posts to cite them
The first and only time I’ve been offended by Jenna’s writing was when she wrote that Catholics believe her brother is hell-bound because he died before baptism. As a Catholic, I felt that Jenna’s post was harsh and that she lacks the spiritual background and credentials in Catholicism to jump to this conclusion.
The other time I was really angry about judgement on this site was when commenters were going on about the various slow food/real food/green food/sustainable food movements. I think many of those comments lack an understanding of cultural relativism and didn’t care for the tone. Upon reflection, I agree with the factual judgements (it is better to have organic, local produce and a diet filled with plants than fruits from New Zealand and a diet filled with products made in plants). I do not agree with the attitudes of how easy it is to live this truth, and that’s where I felt judged. However, I got over it, because I do believe that one person’s easy is another person’s challenge and I don’t really care whether someone in Kansas thinks that its easy as pie to have dinner on the table at 6 every night. In the end, I don’t care if some stranger is judging me.
Hope this post doesn’t open up a mountain of past angst for anyone!!
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Jenna Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 1:57 am
The Catholic post is a wonderful example of how I’ve grown through blogging, and how blogging has opened me up to new ideas that I never would have known of before. I had never known or heard anything different (even from my previously Catholic husband who seems to have not paid very close attention to what he was being taught growing up) and it was the response to this post that (happily!) taught me how wrong my understanding was. Though I regret hurting anyone, I wrote from my understanding at the time, which was obviously limited. Now I tend to Google a little bit more before I write *ass*umptions like that.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 12:02 pm
Another question I’d pose is which is more important, the intention of the writer or the perception of the reader? If Jenna genuinely does not intend to come off as aggressively judgemental but some reader finds her so, is that Jenna’s fault?
In another context, imagine a good old Southern boy comes to New York and opens doors, pulls out chairs and tries to pay for his female date’s dinner. She is overtly offended at his judgement that she is too feeble to open doors, pull out her own chair or pay for her dinner. She tells him off for judging her to be a weak woman and he is flabbergasted that his gestures were misread. Who’s wrong?
If you think the guy is wrong for not understanding his audience and adopting the local “culture”, then how is someone like Jenna supposed to write for and please an international audience with international norms?
She backs up her posts with studies and science - what’s more conclusive proof of an absolute truth than that?
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Evelyn Reply:
February 2nd, 2010 at 12:28 pm
I really like your comparison! =)
As I have read (and engaged) in some of the various comment discussions that is probably one of the biggest “flags” I’ve seen… those who react with no thought, attempt, or even desire to see or consider the true intent of the post.
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Mrs. D Reply:
February 2nd, 2010 at 1:22 pm
This is an interesting question. I’ve studied writing (fiction and poetry) and always learned that intent doesn’t matter. It’s the reader’s interpretation that counts.
However, it’s clear that 10 different readers can have 10 different interpretations of one piece of writing.
And I think that the writer has a duty to be true to him/herself. Whether doing so may be offensive to others or not.
I think what’s called for - from the writer AND the reader - is open-mindedness. The willingness to realize that what you’re reading/writing may offend; the willingness to accept that the writer may or may not have intended to offend you; the willingness to either hold your tongue, respond with calmness, or stop reading/writing entirely.
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Jenna Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 2:02 am
I think where some people have a problem is that I attempt to cite research and studies, which makes them angry because I am admittedly not a scientist or expert in anything! One of the latest questions in my Formspring inbox is: “How would you feel if someone had a home birth based on your “scientific facts” and then died?”
Are there really people who would EVER consider me a definitive source on anything and act without taking the time to work things out for themself. I guess I always assume that my readers are intelligent human beings (often much more intelligent than myself) and that posts about birth and diet and other things are more like a springboard for future questioning and research rather than a definitive source. For heavens sake, I’m not even a college graduate!
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Ellie Reply:
February 6th, 2010 at 6:28 pm
I just wanted to say I’m as big city feminist as they come and I don’t know a single woman who gets offended by a guy pulling out chairs or opening doors. (What is offensive is when he won’t let me do it for him.) Yet somehow there is this obnoxious backlash against feminism because we might get offended when you try to get the door. Why can’t everybody just get the door for everybody else, cuz it’s polite?
And ironically, I felt judged by this comment because it assumes something about me/people like me that isn’t true. Which leads me to say that I think that the negative connotations surrounding judgment come from when somebody makes an assumption about a person or group of people, and then makes a negative comment about that assumption. I don’t even think it’s a matter of insecurity on the reader’s part. It’s a matter of not considering that other people might have a reason for doing what they do. The only time I’ve really felt judged here was when Jenna talked about why they got pregnant young, and how they could have been selfish and waited to have kids. I’m waiting to have kids because I want to be a lawyer and make the world a better place for my kids to grow up in, and I want to be economically and professionally comfortable enough to give them a good life, and I’m just not there yet, and I felt like it was harsh to automatically rule anyone who made different choices as selfish. I don’t think that my perception was that wrong. I also don’t think that this is a matter of adapting to your audience. It’s a matter of constantly reminding yourself that everybody else is different than you and just because your choices aren’t their choices doesn’t mean that their choices are wrong. I think Jenna manages this most of the time, and I also think it’s a very hard balance to strike. I appreciate that she is always open to comments about why she might be wrong/harsh/judgmental; and I feel comfortable telling her when she has hurt my feelings or made an incorrect assumption because she is very open to hearing that.
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Cristin Reply:
February 6th, 2010 at 6:47 pm
Hi Ellie,
I’m sorry that you were offended because you identified with the woman in my metaphor, but perhaps you are not “as big city feminist as they come” given that you disagree with the woman you said you identify with?
My brother from Texas recently visited us in Manhattan. He stands up every time a woman gets up from the table. He insists on paying for everything - even for me, his married older sister. I noticed that my female friends in the city mocked him and seemed to think that he was naive or weak because he was so polite at all times. The woman in my metaphor was an exaggeration of people that I know, who did not take my brother’s well-intentioned gestures of respect as they were intended.
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Ellie Reply:
February 6th, 2010 at 6:57 pm
I’ll be honest, I don’t understand the getting up thing. But I’m a law student and that’s how you treat a judge; not how I should be treated because of how I was born. If a man treated me like that, I would just feel really uncomfortable - not because it’s a sign that I’m weak, but because well, it’s weird.
And anybody else paying makes me feel awkward, uncomfortable, and beholden. It’s not a feminist “I can earn my own money” thing, it’s just a balance thing. If somebody you knew regularly handed you twenty dollars, it would make you feel weird, and I see it as the same thing.
It doesn’t sound like your friends were offended though - just kinda mean (and whose making assumptions now, Ellie?).
Some guys do tend to take the chivalry thing too far, and treat women like they actually aren’t capable of anything - and it ceases to be polite, and begins to be annoying - hence my comment about it being frustrating when a man won’t let me get the door for him. I’ve had men act like it’s demeaning for them to walk through a door that a woman has opened, and yes, that is offensive.
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Cristin Reply:
February 7th, 2010 at 10:14 am
This kind of made me laugh, because it proved my original point, which was “what’s more important, the intentions of the writer/speaker or the interpretation of the listener/reader?” You think that standing up when a woman leaves the table is weird; my brother thinks it is absolutely a sign of respect towards women. When he is home in Dallas and stands up, his female friends agree that its polite and respectful. His point in paying/opening doors/standing up is to be kind, not offensive or “weird.”
My original comment was to illustrate that its not up to Jenna to consider how hundreds of readers with different cultures, assumptions, and personal histories are going to interpret her writing. She can and does consider the general populous, but its impossible to know how everyone will interpret one’s actions. Some people take offense to comments and posts that I consider benign, and I may be offended by something Jenna thought was very neutral or absolute fact. As readers, we should consider Jenna’s purpose and intention, not just lash out with our own influenced response.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 12:30 pm
Jenna, stay who you are - keep evolving as a human being - thinking critically, exploring and sharing your discoveries. Don’t dumb it down for those who are in constant need of approval. The fact that people react is good - you provoke discussion, and although I wish they would think twice before spilling their anger all over your world, your writing makes them think. You know the saying - never say never? I bet you the ones who defend their fears stronger than anyone else will be the first ones to deal with their belief systems being tested by the Universe. I would also like to add that it is easy to be a righteous person without ever having to deal with those who do not share your beliefs.
I enjoy reading your blog and look forward to every post. We share a lot of similarities AND differences. The fact that I am not the same as you makes me enjoy your blog even more - I like when people of different cultures and backgrounds communicate, it brings us closer and diminishes the distance (moral, cultural, physical) between us.
(By the way, thank you so much for your e-mail response! I didn’t write back because I didn’t want to add to your e-mail project
And thank you very-very much for adding me to the fledgling photographers roll! I truly appreciate your presence in my life!)
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February 2nd, 2010 on 12:34 pm
I usually think of another person as being judgmental when (a) she expresses her opinion about a matter as if her opinion is fact and if other people want to be right they should come to the same opinion, without recognition that her opinion might be based in false assumptions, might be changeable, or might not be applicable in the context of the factors that other people consider in their own lives or (b) she reacts to choices that other people make in their lives with an opinion about whether those choices are right or wrong, or about whether the person making the choice made the choice smartly, without being asked to do so.
I think everyone is judgmental at least sometimes, and I think your posts sometimes come across as judgmental. For example, based on the way you have described your religion, it is inherently judgmental because it is based on you believing that it is “true” and that anything else is false and that it is important for other people to recognize that their beliefs are false and yours are true. That’s pretty true of a lot of religious beliefs (if not most), not just LDS, but seems to be especially engrained in LDS rhetoric that you describe on the blog. Also, occasionally some parts of your posts about food and labor come across as if you think that anyone with a different opinion could not have a valid basis for their opinion. So that is being judgmental.
However, I read your blog every day because I think you’re interesting, and that is mostly because you have strong opinions, explain why you have them, and engage with others in conversations about them. Also, the bases for your opinions are often strong (according to my judgment of those bases) and interesting themselves. So I guess I like that you are sometimes judgmental. Also, I like that you seem not be closed off to hearing other people’s experiences and opinions and incorporating those into your analysis.
I think that being judgmental in the mommy blog world that your some of your topics dip into can be a problem because there are a million factors that go into each parenting choice (including pregnancy and labor decisions) and some of those factors are value-based (such as making choices you think will contribute to your child having the same faith as you, or having a high-paying job, or will lead to less stress for the parents, or something else that a parent may value highly but other parents may not value to the same degree in comparison to other things, or at all). Even decisions about how much information a person wants to have can be based in many factors. For example, some people I know try to limit the information they obtain about all the bad possibilities related to their pregnancy and labor because it freaks them out or overwhelms them to a degree that they feel is unhealthy and they make a decision that it is better for them to seek out information less broadly, trust the medical professionals they have chosen, and be less stressed.
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Jenna Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 2:05 am
I think your statements about women who purposely limit what they learn in regard to pregnancy and labor are the hardest for me to wrap my head around because it is SO different than what I believe a pregnant woman should do. But I’m trying, I really am, to better understand how and why different people approach their decisions. It’s why I like blogging so much, I would never be exposed to so many different viewpoints in life otherwise!
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Cristin Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 8:37 am
I agree with Jenna here on people who intentionally do not learn because its too confusing. I know this is probably true. I hear it a lot about nutrition as well - its too confusing, there’s too much to learn, there’s too many biased articles/studies, etc. So instead, people don’t look at labels when they eat. But to intentionally enter into a hospital setting, where roughly 1/3 of births in the US are C-Sections (so an invasive procedure, for sure), without any information about what should be happening - well, that’s horrible!
It reminds me of The Giver (anyone remember this from fourth grade?). Life was too tough for them, so they gave one person the world’s knowledge and had a systematic cookie-cutter lifestyle, lest decision making be too hard on them. Its horrible.
Going to a doctor without educating yourself is what gets us into situations like Tuskegee. Know what your doctor is doing for you and to you.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 12:51 pm
I don’t think I’ve ever felt personally judged via your blog, but I do know that our lives and our belief systems are very different. That is the reason why I like coming here.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 12:58 pm
I agree with most of the comments on the blog, so I will just add a little bit. Of course there are things that you say on your blog that I disagree with because you are conservative and LDS, well I am about 180 degrees of that but I don’t have to agree with someone to read their blog. I love reading your blog, obviously. You are a doll, and I have never felt condemned. I think you have to let someone make you feel condemned.
However, maybe because I argue all day every day and very much used to people disagreeing with me. I think you get to a point where you say, oh you think I am judgmental that’s great—and just keep on truckin’. I have been called judgmental of fat people before because I am an advocate of eating healthy. People can twist just about any topic to something negative.
I have said it a million times before, the internet makes people very brave.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 1:01 pm
In all honest Jenna this is your personal blog. You are letting us into that world. Your world of opinions and beliefs and we should take from it what we can, what we will and what we want. What we don’t care for can be taken care of quite simply by closing out the web page. Plan and simple. It’s wonderful that you’re trying to accomodate your readers but you must realize (and I’m usre you have) that there are simply haters, nay sayers, negative, angry , strong opinionated individuals out there who feel the need to unleash that. What a lovely way to be able to do it then to pick on you through the worldwideweb…. Keep doing what you’re doing..you do it well and the strength in the number of followers you have is a testament to that. When the negativity stops coming your way THAT’s when you should be worried.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 1:44 pm
I feel that too many people are wound too tight. If someone says something that they disagree with, it’s suddenly an issue and they must immediately notify the person “in the wrong”.
I can’t think of any specifics but I’m sure there have been times that I’ve had a different viewpoint on something than you but I am not you and you are not me. That’s that.
I come across blogs all the time who have different views than I do. None of them anger me to the point where I must tell the person how terrible they are for thinking that way. I can understand that everyone has their opinion and are totally entitled to it.
Drives me crazy.
I wouldn’t change who you are. Obviously these people who are complaining about it are not your target reader anyway. I wouldn’t even acknowledge their negativity and move on to the people who do support you. No need to waste your time.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 1:49 pm
This will be lengthy. I am just saying it from my point of view. I hope I don’t rant too much… Here goes…
I think the way that I communicate my opinionated views versus how you communicate yours are two different styles. But because you have a personal blog- I don’t care enough to say to your in your face that you are judgmental. It’s your blog, your forum, and your personal exercise to connect with the world and to work through your personal thoughts in an open manner. I respect that.
Having said that…. As a Pediatric RN and soon to be Master’s of Science Pediatric Nurse Practitioner/Certified Nurse Specialist I can’t CONVINCE anyone why it’s good/better/best to do anyone particular thing even if I believe it to be so due to the scientific best. All I can do is present something in a neutral way and guide someone to follow what their best is for them- even if I don’t agree with it, but I recognize that personal choices are just that. Personal. and how I approach sensitive personal issues with other people who are going through the process of decision-making is by giving them the facts, and supporting them in their decision. You get better compliance working in partnership, not dictatorship, with them.
Taking the above into consideration, I feel as though the posts about child birth or pregnancy to be fascinating. I am glad you found a way to make the birthing experience meaningful to you. And I am glad you go above and beyond to read so you feel comfortable with your decision. Where we differ, is I feel the energy you expand to go out of your way to minimize the efforts of Ob/Gyns who do try to make birth more pleasant is something I feel is judgmental- based off solely your reading on biased websites/readings/videos, not necessarily personal experience. And (I recall you met with a couple of OG/Gyn’s who were turned off by some of the requests you had) have personal experience with it, I feel bad that those practitioners don’t represent the excellent ones that I have encountered and who are making a positive change to maternal care. But even the Navelgazing Midwife will say that you can get the birth you want in a hospital setting if you approach your request in a non-confrontational manner “I-know-more-than-you-do-even-though-I-don’t-have-a-medical-degree-&-don’t-you-dare-use-your-degree-as-a-weapon-to-minimize-my-wants-and-desires-that-are-different-from-what-you-do” stance.
I feel your energy is best served to expose the nurturing side of your current midwife experience. Example: Pacing the Panic Room. He didn’t spend time rattling off research. He simply said ‘this is what we are doing’ and stuck to it. I know you have family who aren’t necessarily supportive of your chosen birth style- But for someone like me who is curious about home birth and works for the health care system- I don’t want to hear a large amount of criticism (I get the criticism already everyday), -but as a lay-person on my personal time, I want to hear the focus of your relationship with your midwife. Support that. Because you aren’t political, you don’t vote, you don’t join groups that sway the policy that drives hospital policy. You are using a platform that doesn’t have an influence on that. But you can influence people’s views of using a midwife by sticking to your current prenatal care that is meaningful to you. And to be honest, I stopped reading your bog for a period of time because it was getting to be disheartening. I want to hear about midwife care. Not more info on yet another reason to not be followed by a doctor. The way I would approach home birth naysayers is to say: I feel confidant with my midwife because she has already told me what we can anticipate if there is a problem- and so far I have had a healthy low risk pregnancy where we both feel assured I won’t encounter anything. But I also feel as though my care during birth will be managed appropriately that I am not worried….” Frankly, there are a lot of things that can go wrong. But there are A LOT of ways to manage it with an experienced midwife who knows when to draw the line if it is outside their scope of practice. Fear shouldn’t drive someone away from using a midwife, but knowledge and comfort in the skill set the midwife brings to the table will make a laboring mother confidant- as well as those who should be supportive of the mother-to-be.
I also don’t really care for the research you use. No one uses wiki. No one. Submit your post as a personal statement to a University and you will not even be considered if they see you cite Wiki. They will laugh at you. It’s not peer reviewed to the criteria or standards that any respected ‘acadamiac’ would use. So when I see your ‘research’ that you turn to, some is good, many of it is biased. -I tend to go straight down the middle with my research. So I feel that some of the things you share that you have read- doesn’t paint a broad picture that narrows itself down to how that journey of research led you to where you are at, all things considered. For example, if I were to say- “Oh I heard this is true, and from the stand point of Person A who does this research compared to Person B who found this- My personal journey to make decision laid here.” And research is just that research. Not absolutes, it is ever changing, it is obsolete in some instances- but I go to the journals. Either the Midwifery journals or ACOG. And I take everything and not try to find something that proves my point or something that FITS my personal lens. I go for where the truth is, somewhere in the middle. But sometimes I feel that you use the research as an absolute- and that turns me off. And I feel that when you just arrive to a conclusion- but don’t share the journey to that point- it is missing the pondering stage of how you arrived. But I took a multitude of research classes, engaged in research and understand you are doing your best to just use info available to you out there. But I refrain myself a lot when you start pulling and citing from certain areas.
I don’t mind in the least your Mormon posts. I have many Mormon friends (One of which considers himself to be of “the Mormon Left” haha). And I adore them all. I would never get in a battle or conversation with you about your religious views. And actually, I like your religious posts. They speak to how it makes you whole. And no one can minimize that or argue with that. If a religion or faith makes you a better person for society in a way that speaks to you I am all for it. =o) I am one who believes all paths that lead to God are good. Even people who don’t identify them self as Christian but engaged in Christian-like acts are not any less of a Christian or person.
I don’t expect you to change your tone, or to change the direction of your blog. If I really have strong repeated feelings against certain things you express- I am not even going to bother continuing to read the blog. And you would never know because it’s your blog and it’s not important for me to tell you “I’m not reading you anymore”. I am not going to spend the time to pick a fight with you. I am not even going to provide unsolicited advice unless you ask for it. But I definitely participate less in the comments section nowadays because- what’s the point of even demonstrating where I disagree if you are going to say “hmmm, well that’s your point of view- but no I wouldn’t even exercise that thought.” Which is where I feel like you tend to hover around in some of your replies to other commenter’s. And that is unproductive to me. Because again, my discussions with my friends who I don’t always agree with- I approach it differently. I am not out to convince anyone- but I expect my views to be respected though. As I fully understand you as your own person and to realize that your interests, desires, and needs are no less important than my own, but I embrace discussing differences so we can further develop our personal outlook and approach to life in a mutually respectful manner.
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Cristin Reply:
February 2nd, 2010 at 6:48 pm
Wow - this comment was very powerful for me. It made me wonder - have there ever been commenters that have influenced Jenna’s opinion or changed her mind about something? I mean something factual, not something like changing her tone or getting her to change the structure of her blog.
As someone who has been influenced positively by the blog, I am curious what you gets from your commenters, other than an exercise in diplomacy. I absolutely feel that you’ve grown as a writer in the 6-8 months that I’ve followed the blog.
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Katherine (a.k.a. Sparkles) Reply:
February 2nd, 2010 at 6:55 pm
I don’t follow what you’re asking. Are you asking me or TW?
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Cristin Reply:
February 2nd, 2010 at 7:02 pm
So sorry. I am not as articulate as you are with my commenting!! I’m actually reading TW at work, so I was distracted when I left that. I meant for Jenna to answer it, as I think you answered it in your comment above!
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Katherine (a.k.a. Sparkles) Reply:
February 2nd, 2010 at 7:25 pm
No you were articulate! I just wanted to make sure it wasn’t directed to me! (Trust me I have learned my lesson about just assuming- so I just wanted to clarify) And then I held myself back from saying- I know I ranted too long in my comment- it was nothing more than constructive criticism…
But it’s a good question you asked though… what does TW hope to get out of the comments? The last few posts where she talked about “social experiment” also turned me off from contributing any further in the comments section because I don’t want to be a participant in an ‘exercise’ per se, where she proves an underlying point. It’s liked being duped. So then what’s the point of the comments? I thought it was (like Cristin says) to engage in a conversation in varying viewpoints.
Yeah, her writing style has gradually matured… But I think there are still gaps where her message isn’t conveyed as thoroughly as she would hope and she gets jumped on unnecessarily. But other bloggers tend to write in a format starting broad and neutral discussing general viewpoints, then go narrow and guide their readers through their personal journey of ups/downs, and go broad again by asking their readers for their input on a similar issue- or just recaps an experience from their perspective… and TW doesn’t really follow that algorithm… She tends to just present whatever it is and moves on- it’s a little fractionated post to post…sometimes I don’t feel a whole lot of closure on a topic. & other times it’s like the commenters are released to go at it amongst themselves! ;o)
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Evelyn Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 2:12 pm
I think the “social experiment” bit comes from this post-the one we are commenting in, wherein she mentioned that the mindspring “ask anything” thing has turned into a social experiment of sorts.
I don’t think the blog or the comment forum of the blog has ever been considered or treated as a social experiment.
-Also, I don’t think she intended for the mindspring thing to be one, I think it’s sort of revealed itself as something of a weird social experiment. Have you read the questions she’s been asked?? Holy cow, it really has been revealing about what anonymity will do for a person!
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Jenna Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 2:13 am
Can I think of a specific instance where a particular comment has really changed me? Absolutely not, but I can say that the back-and-forth I’ve had with frequent commenters (who I largely consider to be much smarter than myself and wonder WHY IN THE WORLD they are reading) like Sophia, Cecy, Kristin, Emmie, yourself, Erin, and many others has greatly influenced the way I think about things. Even if I haven’t changed my mind about certain areas, my tolerance levels have increased and I’ve developed a better understanding of how different people can arrive to different conclusions on the same topic.
I often get thanked for opening up and talking about my life so candidly, but I think sometimes people forget that they are doing the exact same thing when they comment often about a variety of things. There are so many commenters I talk frequently with TH about, naming them by name, and spouting off little details about their lives and what they believe about certain topics. It’s a really fabulous way to expand ones view of the world I think!
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Jenna Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 2:38 am
I think the problem with the approach you are suggesting, as I interpret it an “I love home birth and these are all the wonderful things about it” without ever mentioning my views on the alternative options, is that there ARE problems with the way things are done the majority of the time. Unfortunately I believe that the doctors who practice evidenced-based medicine, and the hospital administrations that make their policies based on what is best for the patient, and the nurses who approach each patient individually and listen to their needs and desires are still in the minority.
I think a good comparison can be found in pretending I am a food blogger who believes in being organic. What if a conventional farmer wrote me and pleaded for me to stop writing about the opposite side of things, and just to talk about how wonderful my organic foods are? If I think something is wrong with conventional food production practices (the way it strips the land, the danger of pesticide consumption over time, the way large-scale conventional dairymen often treat their animals, the way chickens/cows/pigs are raised and slaughtered) why shouldn’t I write both about what organic does to make me happy AND the problems I see with the other choice and changes I think need to be made. How could change EVER happen if we all approached life tht way? Even if that one farmer was doing his best to raise his conventional crop in the best way possible, was limiting his use of pesticides, rotating his crops to enrich the soil in the best way possible, etc, the way he chooses to do things does not mean there aren’t problems overall by any means! If I were that food blogger writing about those things I wouldn’t be attacking him specifically, I would be talking about those who aren’t so concientous.
Suggesting that those type of things should be ignored unless one has experienced themself, I think, discredits all the women out there who are writing about how they didn’t understand what was happening to them, how they felt violated in some, how they felt they had no control, how they walked out feeling like they didn’t have any say in their care, how they felt that procedures were performed on them without their knowledge, how they went with a doctor just because that is what everyone else did and now they feel unhappy but they dont’ understand why. Even if all of those experiences are anecdotal, they are still real, and they are still happening. And most of those women don’t have a blog with hundreds and hundreds of different women across the country reading what is said, so they bring them up in BabyCenter and Mothering.com forums and that’s about it, that’s where it goes. No change can happen if these things aren’t talked about frequently and publicly. Because I’m sure that you can admit that there are changes that need to happen.
Where I have a hard time with your comments is that I feel like you are not really getting this idea that the people you know in real life, are not a full representation of what maternity care in the US is actually like for the majority of women. It’s not your friend or your husband or your teacher or someone else that is specifically the problem, it’s the group as a whole. I freely admit that there are problems with home birth, risks involved, and that there are certainly improvements and changes that could be implemented to make that system of care better, so why can’t you admit the same for the medical model as well? I also think that your message, that all you have to do is find a doctor who is open-minded and then you can have the exact same experience in a hospital that you would have outside of one is absolutely false! Your doctor does not control your labor, there are entirely too many factors involved, including hospital policy, the nurses you work with (and sometimes you deal with several), your anesthesiologist, your doctor himself, and sometimes more. I’ve had too many emails and comments from women who have either given birth, and wish they had learned more, or who have yet to give birth but express gratitude for my posts because they are going to approach their experience a little bit differently now to believe that I’m approaching things incorrectly altogether.
If you are ever going to come to peace with the way I approach my posts on pregnancy/labor you are going to have to separate your personal interactions with doctors who, I’m sure, I don’t doubt it, are working hard to provide the best, personalized , evidenced based care, for each of their patients. If that were the case there would be far less stories of women walking away from their experience feeling disappointed with the care provided to them.
Regarding your comment on Wikipedia, I actually disagree with you that it’s a highly biased source. Though academics still scoff at it, it’s peer reviewed to the max. Have you ever gone to the discussion pages and seen how people go crazy, especially regarding hot button topics like home birth. I think it’s becoming one of the best sources of information available to the masses because, unless you are editing an obscure page no one cares about, your ideas are going to be attacked and removed unless you have sufficient evidence to back them up. Not everyone has access to medical journals and most people woudln’t know how to read and process the information even if they did. I never intend my posts to be the absolute when it comes to references. If it’s something that affects/intrigues them, they should search information out for themselves and figure out where they stand on the issue.
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Katherine (a.k.a. Sparkles) Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 11:14 am
Hi J,
Thanks for your reply. I honestly agree with a lot of points you have made on a variety of issues on being your own advocate, being proactive about your personal care etc.
I think I just tend to sway more towards being an optimist rather than a pessimist. I only mention that I don’t care about being so overly neg about hospitals/docs because I see how proactive patients who want to make a difference are when they join the committees (like patient-family-parent committees) to make processes better for all participants. I have seen in Ca hospitals where midwives/doulas/waterbirths/hypnobirthing/and great doctors nurses provide good individualized care. and I don’t like focusing on the negatives out there- I find giving props to those who make a move in the right direction deserve far more credit than focusing on what doesn’t work. It’s two different styles of approach.
I think I keep coming back to read your blog to see the strong stand you take- and while it may rub me the wrong way at times, it doesn’t matter. It’s another viewpoint to add to my constant reflection about daily life. I don’t feel judged or condemned by you. But I sometimes feel disheartened by the approach. But that is what life is about. Learning what works for you and what doesn’t.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 1:50 pm
I have been reading since That Bride. Though I don’t always agree with you and I sometimes even get a little riled up, I have *never* felt condemned. I have been working really hard to develop a thicker skin because I am a person who takes absolutely everything personally. It has been good for me to read opinions and even judgments that I don’t necessarily agree with. In the case of your pregnancy and birth posts, it has forced me to do my own research and come to my own conclusions. So if, while writing your personal blog, you have influenced others to think about their own beliefs, I think you’re been pretty successful.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 1:51 pm
“To open the mind so wide as to keep nothing in it or out of it is not a virtue; it is the vice of the feebleminded.” -G.K. Chesterton
Unfortunately, open-mindedness is currently regarded as the highest form of relating to other people. I disagree. You hold strong beliefs and to believe something is true automatically means that you believe other things aren’t true. The “true for you” mentality has it’s place but many people have a need for their beliefs and opinions to be constantly validated as worthy ones. When you state your own beliefs, the insecure reader hears you saying that hers’ are wrong or unworthy.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 2:16 pm
I don’t think you’re “judgmental” (in the rude kind of way) at all!! I think you have opinions and you express them - isn’t that what blogging is all about?? I know that you don’t want to offend or turn readers away, but I say good riddance. It’s not as though you are personally judging any one person. If they feel judged, then maybe they should go take a good long look in the mirror and STOP being SO sensitive!!
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February 2nd, 2010 on 2:43 pm
Jenna, I’m not really sure where the drive comes from for people to leave outright negative comments on anyone’s blogs. I hardly have time to leave positive ones! But I wanted to take the time to comment on this one and tell you to keep up the good work.
I agree with everyone who has commented about loving your blog because of the interesting discussions it creates. You aren’t afraid to tackle many issues that so many other bloggers with high readerships shy away from, and I think your readers (for the most part) respect you for that.
To be honest, I don’t agree with everything you say. Although we have similarities, such as being LDS and conservative, we also have differences (for example, I know someone whose baby died in a home birth but could have survived in the hospital). And yet, I can choose to acknowledge that this is your blog and those are your opinions just as easily as I chose to read the post in the first place.
Because really, who ever DOES agree with everything that anyone says? Even my best friends and I have differences of opinion. I suppose it takes a certain level of maturity to respectfully disagree.
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diana Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 2:47 pm
I agree completely with this comment. Everyone has their own opinions and beliefs. This is a personal blog, where you talk about your own opinions and beliefs. That is your right. I am a more recent follower of TW, but I love the topics that you write about and can relate, on some level, to most of them.
I have some beliefs of my own that differ greatly from yours. But, no one is forcing me to read your blog, least of all you. I am making the choice to read it, as are all of the readers. I think that is the hardest and most frustrating thing about negative and rude comments. I think that people who leave rude and attacking comments are just too insecure in themselves and are threatened by your confidence in yourself, your opinions and your beliefs. And, they don’t have anything intelligent to say to support their differing beliefs.
I’ve never felt judged or condemmed by anything you have written. I don’t feel that you write in a tone that suggests your way is best or superior, or that you write to try to convince people or convert people to do things the way you do.
I am inspired by the way that you thoroughly and thoughtfully research important topics. I think that you really present things in a very unbiased way, and I love reading your posts.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 3:03 pm
I don’t know if I’ve ever commented on one of your blogs but it really got me thinking about the whole topic so here I am offering my “two cents.”
Generally, I’m not offended by what you write. If anything, some of it is not interesting to me for a myriad of reasons not worth citing they just… don’t interest me? Those items are ones that I just don’t finish reading.
I think the only time I was outright offended (and not even just for myself but just for anyone who might have been reading) was the posting that you wrote as a rant about turning off the word verification for commenting. It was clear that you don’t believe in using it and don’t think others should use it. However, the way that you went about stating your point was easily insulting and offensive. Just like this blog is a place where you are trying to share in the most genuine way, other people are doing that too with their blogs. This is your personal space and that’s theirs. And, from what I recall, you made a statement that could easily be interpreted as you saying that other people’s words/blogs weren’t important enough and you were here to tell them so.
I understand your argument stating your point but there is certainly a gentler way that you could have gone about convincing people to change their minds. That particular posting sticks out to me because I think while I was reading it for the first time I literally said, “WHOA” out loud and then thought to myself, “Somebody’s getting a little too big for their blog.” And then when you specifically mentioned your stats? It kind of really hit things in the opposite direction (for me) than what I’m sure you were aiming for. I actually stopped reading for a while after that because I was put off by the tone that you took. And (sadly) that one experience has kind of stayed with me enough when I’ve read personal opinions that you’ve offered.
Anyway, you asked for an example so I hope I’ve provided it.
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Jenna Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 2:41 am
Fascinating that that is the post that stuck out to you the most. A topic I find to be rather inconsequential in relation to the things I normally write. I do rarely comment on blogs that have it turned on though.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 4:54 pm
I don’t see a problem with your writing, and that is why I am hooked. That is why I check your website every single day hoping for a new post.
And it is YOUR site, you should be able to say whatever you want. Even if you do unfairly judge someone/thing you have the right to on your own blog. If someone doesn’t like what you have to say then they should keep their comments to themselves and not visit anymore.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 7:02 pm
I don’t find you judgmental, I find you opinionated. Big difference in my opinion. Or perhaps I see it that way because I am the same way. When I have a strong opinion about something I see no cause to hide it from others. I have not agreed with everything you have posted but I have also not been offended because 1) it’s your blog. You are welcome to write what you will and 2) I don’t HAVE to agree with you just because I read your blog. How very boring the world would be if we were all the same person. For those who are offended by what you say, in my opinion, they have their own choices to make. They don’t have to read this blog. They can choose to unsubscribe. And perhaps they are offended because they aren’t really strong enough in their own beliefs, whatever they may be. But for them to come here and spew THEIR judgment on you if silly and immature.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 7:20 pm
I first started reading you when you were going through your wedding planning. I stuck around because we were going through a similar life event, and I found that interesting. As we both went from wife to mother-to-be, I’ve found even more of your writings to be enjoyable to me.
I don’t always agree with you, and if a topic you write about doesn’t particularly interest me, I come back the next day.
That being said, I don’t necessarily feel judged by you, (as a matter of fact, in one of our first email exchanges you stressed that while we may not always agree, you would never judge me on my childbirth choices) but at someone who is actively pursuing a natural HOSPITAL birth, I often feel judged by people in your similar situtation — those opting for a home or birthing center birth.
I could go on about this for days (maybe I should write my own post), but I do believe that “natural” and “hospital” can absoultely go together, as long as the mother has educated herself to the best of her ability — something I try to do daily. I overall feel judged by the natural birth advocates, who stress that the business of hospitals will prevent from me from having the birth I desire. I believe that will make is more difficult than having a home birth, but not impossible.
(Whoa, novel! Sorry.)
Aside from the above, I think your posts are usually very interesting and I enjoy reading differnt points of view.
But in full honesty, I know of one time I definitely judged you. You’ve written very detailed posts about your struggles with weight gain and the new views and food choices you’re making for your pregnancy, but you’ve often referenced being lazy and hardly discussed any plans to exercise during your pregnancy. I suppose I judged you for seemingly only taking one healthy route, and not one — exercise — that seems so smart.
However, I think you’ve recently said you’re walking often, so the judgement lessened a little
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Molly Reply:
February 2nd, 2010 at 7:23 pm
I also wanted to say that OBgyns who support natural childbirth and not using episiotomies ARE out there — I found one. You just have to do your research.
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Katherine (a.k.a. Sparkles) Reply:
February 2nd, 2010 at 7:51 pm
YES! Thank you! I totally agree with you Molly. You stated it so well! This is exactly what I was trying to say in the comments section of another post of TW- You can have a Natural childbirth in the hospital setting, and there are WONDERFUL OB/Gyns out there who are the best most shining star advocates & examples of how women can have the birth they desire and no episiotomy.
You said it so eloquently. Far better than I had been able to! ;o) Kudos to you.
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Jenna Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 2:50 am
Oh you know I love the phrase “do your research”.
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Jenna Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 2:49 am
Molly,
I think that home birthers (like myself) want to communicate the idea, although it doesn’t seem to come off that way, that a experience where YOU have control, the way you would outside of a hospital, just isn’t possible. Too many factors, too many caregivers, too many policies. But I think you realize that and that it’s rude of myself (or anyone else) to insinuate that you can’t effect your own care through knowledge and advocating for yourself (as demonstrated by your post about that awful doctor who told you you didn’t have a baby int here!) What I’m trying to say is that you are absolutely right, natural and hospital can absolutely be congruous.
Do people really want to hear about my lame attempts at exercise? I guess todays experience, where I decided to walk to the post office to mail some packages in order to get my quota in AND cross something off my to-do list, but it was raining and cold and I made myself sick and I had to stop at Starbucks halfway there because I feel like I have to pee with every step (I wear Depends now, and I’m not ashamed) and then I got to the post office and called TH to come pick me up because I realized there was no way I was going to make it back… I guess that might be something people wouldn’t be too bored by.
Although I’m not perfect, I am rather hard on myself when it comes to exercise. I guess I just feel like if I’m not spending an hour in the gym 5-6 days a week it just doesn’t “count” and it’s not worth mentioning. I think I haven’t conveyed my actual attempts very accurately though.
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Molly Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 8:33 am
Actually, I would love to read about stories like the Depends one! Sounds like something I would write about
I’m not a crazy exerciser either, but I think some walking, yoga and free weights even for just a half hour is good for the body. But I’ve been lazy too with the walking, especially since it’s been just.too.cold.
I totally agree with you that having the type of birth *I* want in a hospital will be more difficult than if I did it at home, and if it didn’t come across accurately in my comment, let me stress that I don’t feel my choice is necessarily judged by you — more by those following the same school of thought as you.
I’ve spoken to women who have had experiences on both sides and in the end, I think the best way to go into birth is with the knowledge that there is no such thing as a “Perfect Birth”.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 7:37 pm
We all judge in some ways or another. It’s inevitable. I’m very opinionated, probably don’t always express myself as well as I would like, and yes, I do judge others and feel judged by others - I think that’s a common fault, and I can’t get that bent out of shape over it. What does ruffle my feathers is when someone is opinionated, thinks of the world in black/white absolutes, makes moral/worth judgments about those who disagree, unwilling to engage in respectful disagreement and discussion with others and is unwilling to rethink their own position.
I don’t think its a big surprise that I see you as being very opinionated - I wouldn’t read and love your blog if you weren’t (even if I do disagree with you about a decent amount). And yes, some posts do come across as being somewhat harsh, judgmental/condemnatory and splitting the world into absolutes. With the type of subject matter you’re willing to tackle and the strength of your opinions I don’t see how you could never do so.
But, with that being said, I’ve been reading your blog since your weddingbee days of That Bride. And so I feel like I know you somewhat (however inaccurate and silly that perception may be). I’ve seen and appreciated how you often clarify sticky points and respond respectfully to respectful (and even not-so respectful) comments and are willing to think about new ideas, change your mind, apologize, etc. Because of that, I don’t think that you are personally condemnatory or close minded. If I’m put off by a post, which does happen occasionally, I have a friendly context to put it in.
A casual reader doesn’t have that mental picture of you to put your opinions into context, and could easily feel attacked for a whole host of reasonable and unreasonable reasons and then assumes the worst about your intent. Some people will attack back or generally be jerks. It’s just the unfortunate nature of the internet. I suppose trying to put more caveats or otherwise showing sympathy to other points of view in controversial posts could help a bit, but communication is always going to have some element of offense that people just need to learn how to deal with responsibly.
I really appreciate you trying so hard to learn how to communicate well and avoid hurting your audience- I think it’s a huge show of respect and love for your readers (and a smart self-preservation measure) that you’re willing to open up discussion on things like this. Thanks.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 8:08 pm
This doesn’t answer your question, but, I read your blog specifically because I often don’t agree with you. It is much more interesting that way
I enjoy the more “controversial” posts. I like the ones that come off as judgmental the best!
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Jessica Reply:
February 2nd, 2010 at 10:18 pm
Ok, well, I just re-read that. I don’t mean to say you often come off judgmental, I just get why sometimes people get all worked up about what you write. I imagine that on some topics people will always find your opinions judgmental- your stance on gays for example. But other topics, like childbirth, I think the issue is just writing style. Like the metaphore about the mountain. I bet if you wrote that now your opinion would be largely the same but it would be written in a way that offended less people. Not sure if my point is making it from my head to this comment, but keep up the writing. It has me coming back each day to see what is next!
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Jenna Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 2:51 am
You are so right. My mountain metaphor would be conveyed SO differently if I wrote it now, even though my basic beliefs about the subject haven’t changed.
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February 2nd, 2010 on 9:07 pm
Jenna I have been reading your blog for a long time but unfortunately don’t comment often - I will try to change that
I don’t view you as a judgemental person or someone who condems at all. I happen to enjoy a lot of your thoughts and opinions on life, beliefs & values. It’s wonderful to see someone stand up for what they believe. Keep doing what you’re doing! If you didn’t say what you believed you wouldn’t be true to yourself and God made you a wonderful person who stands up for thier thoughts and thinks doe themselves. Never apologize doe that!
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February 2nd, 2010 on 11:52 pm
Love your blog. I may not agree with everything you write, but everyone is entitled to an opinion. I don’t agree with everything people in my real life say either - doesn’t mean I don’t love them anymore.
It’s a blog. If people don’t like it - why do they read it?
If you haven’t got anything nice to say. Say nothing people. It’s called manners
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February 3rd, 2010 on 5:14 am
Jenna, there’s something you need to realize about blogging. You can’t have your cake and eat it, too.
You can’t speak out against equal rights and expect everyone to love you when you’re done. You can’t insinuate that women who implicitly trust modern medicine are ignorant and expect not to offend. You can’t proclaim a willing deference to “male authority” and not expect enlightened, feminist-minded women to cry out in protest.
You’re a very conservative young woman with a morality-based philosophy on life. You value your faith in (the judeo-christian) god above all, and virtually every other belief you hold follows from what you believe that god thinks you - and others - should do.
But some of your readers are operating under a different (though no less valid) value system. Some of your readers believe in marital equality regardless of sexual orientation. Some of us cringe at the patriarchal ideology that seems to bring you so much joy.
By all means, share your passions, your convictions, your beliefs, your story. But when you start to imply that your passions, your convictions, your beliefs, and your story are The Best, you may not lose any readers…but you won’t gain any friends, either.
FWIW, and I honestly don’t mean this as harshly as it sounds, I think your religion is a good metaphor for you, yourself. The LDS church proclaims itself to be The One True Church, does it not? And while it demonstrates (with notable exceptions) a genial tolerance towards other faiths/belief systems, at the end of the day, it really believes itself to be the ONLY righteous path of life.
It’s obvious to me, anyway, that this is what you believe of yourself - that you’re on the only righteous path of life. That your choices (being Mormon, marrying in the temple, having children, and using a midwife) are The Only sanctioned choices in life. That sense of surety comes through in your writing, sometimes with a tinge of smugness.
That’s my experience on your blog, anyway. Which, as I said before, I find utterly fascinating….
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Jenna Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 2:55 am
You pointed out something I’ve never realized before. Although I absolutely believe that the LDS Church is the one true Church of God, and that God only has one (narrow) path for salvation, I in now way think that also means that there is only one way to do other things in life as well.
I will say though, I challenge anyone to go back and find anywhere where I’ve said that things like using a midwife are THE only way to do things. I don’t think that’s been the case, I think individual interpretations may have come to such a conclusion, but I have never intended, nor do I ever believe, I have implied such a thing. I think it’s important for readers to distinguish between my religious beliefs and those that I consider to be just be lifestyle choices.
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Katherine (a.k.a. Sparkles) Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 11:03 am
wow, that was nicely put!
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February 3rd, 2010 on 9:06 am
Jenna, I read your blog because you are so honest and have strong opinions. I don’t always agree with you on every issue, but your honesty is refreshing. The only instance I can recall where I could understand why people might feel judged (and I can’t remember if this was on FB or the blog) was a comment about the Christian abstinence ceremonies. I share your viewpoint on them (my hometown church actually had these, through a program called “True Love Waits,” but I refused to participate because it thought the whole thing was SUPER awkward), but I think the wording of your post chad the potential to offend people.
Nobody’s perfect, and we all are going to say things that are going to rub people the wrong way at some point. If people don’t like your opinions or they feel offended by something you say, they don’t have to read your blog. It’s that easy!
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Jenna Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 2:56 am
It was on Facebook and I agree. After I tweeted it and saw some of the reactions I realized that it could come off as offensive for those who feel like it worked for them and considered it an important/sacred experience in their life. Can we blame that one on being limited to 140 characters? Sometimes Twitter = not so good, especially when it comes to serious topics.
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February 3rd, 2010 on 9:25 am
Jenna, like a few of the comments before me, I don’t agree with everything you say in your blog, but I appreciate you sharing your views and your reasons for them- and they all seem very well researched and right for YOU. I found this post of yours so interesting- I’ve always been intrigued by the insistance of people to leave mean or negative comments on someone’s personal blog when it’s not something that they are by any means forced to read. What ever happend to “if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all”. I always wonder why people continue to read and continue to leave negative comments when it seems so completely unneccessary.
Anyway, I think you’re doing a great job and I’ve always gotten the impression that your views are your own and you’re not trying to force them on anyone else.
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February 3rd, 2010 on 11:31 am
When it comes to judgment, I think this Paulo C. quote sums it up best, because, you’re right, we have to have conviction to live, we have to make judgments to make decisions about our values and morals…
“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It’s one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it’s another to think that yours is the only path.”
I think you definitely believe you are on the right path, but I think you also know yours isn’t the only path.
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Jenna Reply:
February 3rd, 2010 at 12:40 pm
As is obvious from Piper’s comment (https://thatwifeblog.com/2010/02/to-judge/comment-page-1/#comment-21832), I think it’s difficult to differentiate between what I consider absolutely right, such as things tied to my religious beliefs, and those that I just feel very strongly about and advocate because they have made such a difference for me. It’s tough though because I’m not afraid to say that I think that the LDS faith is THE Church of Jesus Christ and the only right path to salvation (which I’m sure you already know), but I never intended to imply that I thought that way about things like homebirth or how to eat or other lifestyle choices.
The right way to get back to God and the right way to have a baby are two totally different things in my book, but I’m not sure that people are interpreting it that way.
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February 3rd, 2010 on 1:47 pm
A blog like this (and one like mine) makes people *think*. Thinking is never bad. Some people express their thinking in different ways than we’re used to, but a moment of patience and *listening* to *what* was said and not *how* it was said can go a long way towards mutual understanding, even if it isn’t agreement.
Jenna: I recommend, for you AND your readers, “The Four Agreements.” While all 4 are great, I repeat, several times a day, “Don’t take things personally.”
Keep writing. Don’t stop. Don’t let anyone dissuade you.
(Coming from the lesbian, agnostic, mother of 4, legally married to Sarah, homebirth midwife.)
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Jenna Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 1:46 am
You are reading my silly little blog? I’m honored.
I started reading your posts very, very early in my pregnancy (yes, I’m awful about commenting on the birth blogs, I think I feel rather intimidated) and I particularly enjoy your photos and the post you wrote about ethics and standard of care.
I think maybe I need to have “Don’t take things personally” blown up and pasted on my wall with one of those vinyl stickers you can get custom made on Etsy. On days when I’m feeling attacked it would be nice to look up and see that reminder staring back at me.
Your comment means a lot though, because out of the 5 things you listed to describe yourself you and I only see eye to eye on two of them. I like thinking that I could have a working relationship with people who believe so differently than me about things. It’s a nice reminder that we can find common ground with almost anyone, that sometimes instead of fighting to make each other see “our way” we accept our differences and focus on what brings us together.
So thanks for reading, and thank you, very much, for this comment.
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Katherine (a.k.a. Sparkles) Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 11:04 am
My heart, like the grinch, grew that much more.
I think I love you!!!! =o)
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Sophia Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 5:25 pm
I was going to come back to this post and mention “The Four Agreements” as well, specifically the don’t take anything personally agreement.
It is a wonderful book, I also highly recommend it.
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February 3rd, 2010 on 6:55 pm
I know Jenna personally. If anyone knew her, they would love her. She is the most sweet, honest, and fun person to be around. Truly, bad judgement is passed on Jenna because people don’t know her as a person.
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Jenna Reply:
February 4th, 2010 at 1:36 am
Thanks for being my friend Lindsey. I adore you.
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February 4th, 2010 on 6:17 am
One more thing I want to add. Right now, I visit your blog because I find it an interesting diversion (your life being so completely, diametrically opposite of my own).
But if you were to start soliciting paid sponsors, I could no longer in good conscience visit That Wife, for reasons I’m sure my prior comment made good and clear.
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February 4th, 2010 on 11:40 am
Someone may have already said this, but I think that people view you as judgmental because you write about such personal subjects and have a strong viewpoint on them.
One of the most personal subjects for people is religion. You write very passionate posts about religion and I admire it. I actually think that you write in a pretty non-judgmental way about religion. And (I will probably get in “trouble” for this), but there are certain religions that people LOVE to pick on. I’m Catholic and I often feel like my friends attack my viewpoints with things they say under their breath about my church, even when they know I am Catholic and know that I can hear what they are saying. And this is when we are not even discussing religion! I think that the Catholic church often gets “picked on”. In that respect I think that the LDS church is the same. Both churches are worldwide, have a sort of hierarchy, and are easy targets for “weird” practices they adhere to. So many people have the viewpoint that “I am right and you are wrong,” from their church, especially when it comes to other religions. Therefore, I think that sometimes people (since they are uncomfortable with your religion anyway) may take your religious statements as being judgmental. Does this make sense?
The other posts I could see as possibly being judgmental are the posts about home birth. Again, this is a very personal subject for most people and no matter what your viewpoint is on this subject you will have people attacking you. If you write about birth in a hospital you will seem “judgmental” to home births. If you write about your home birth you will seem “judgmental” about hospital births simply because you aren’t choosing the same path as the hospital mothers.
So, I guess I am saying that I think that you come off as judgmental to others simply because you write about hard subjects and choose a certain viewpoint. I think it is great and I agree with some of the comments above that if people don’t like the way you write or your viewpoints, they can just leave your blog. I think it is so weird that people have a Yahoo group about you and hope you find a solution to stop the madness. People, how hard is it to simply hit “unsubscribe”?!?!?!?!?!?!?
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February 6th, 2010 on 8:31 am
[...] because if they really wanted to actually talk about this they easily could have contributed to the To Judge? post like everyone else [...]
September 16th, 2010 on 8:58 pm
How does one acquire work outside of their local market, and how does one ultimately become a destination wedding photographer?
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