04 Aug
Eating Animals
This post is not meant to come across as criticism for the way others choose to eat (though I know without a doubt that some will feel that way no matter how I write it). My hope is that visitors will read, and take a few minutes to think critically about where the animals products you buy come from.
“I’m still eating meat but I’m eating less of it. And, I’ll never look at shrink-wrapped chicken cutlets the same way again.”
—Mickey Rapkin, GQ
Cristin is a frequent commenter with insightful contributions that I’ve really grown to love over the past year or so. She has both agreed and disagreed with me many times in the past, and I like that we can be honest with each other. We spent lots of time tweeting back and forth (she is LifeOnMulberry) and when I was preparing for my maternity leave period and looking for guest contributors, she was one of the people I turned to, even though she doesn’t have a blog of her own! She threw out a few different ideas, but things were never finalized and she didn’t end up posting for me that week. Instead, she sent me a copy of the book Eating Animals by Jonathan Safran Foer and told me to read it, post about it, and then pass the copy she bought for me on to someone else.
#1. Read it: Done
#2 Post about it: Doing it right now
#3 Give it away… I can’t do it!
I feel like I’m being really dramatic lately, but just like In Defense of Food this book changed my life. (Seriously, so many life changing books lately.) Remember my goal to eat less meat? We’ve been working on it, slowly, but we weren’t making much progress in the few weeks after I posted about my desire to cut back. Then I read Pollan’s writing and starting visiting the Farmer’s Market and everything came together and I was cooking with less meat and more vegetables and we were happy. Real Food advocates Nina Planck and Michael Pollan advocate strongly for free-range/pasture-fed/etc etc meat and I thought it was a good idea, but I admit I wasn’t fully committed due to the cost.
Then Cristin mails me this book Eating Animals and I start reading and I realize I never want to buy grocery store meat ever again, and since then I haven’t. Though some will balk at the title, assuming that it must be an argument for a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle, I didn’t find it to be so. It is a book that must be read with an open mind though, for it does urge you to think critically about why we choose to eat meat and which kinds (my parents were not impressed by the tidbits I quoted them about eating dogs, not really the best place to start if you’re trying to convince someone it’s a worthwhile read). What’s funny to me, is that I read Fast Food Nation when it was all the rage, and for some reason all I got from that was that I didn’t really want to eat at McDonalds and that slaughterhouse workers were mistreated.
I didn’t find it to be an argument for meat-free living, more a plea to think critically about where the meat you eat comes from. Eat mindfully. This post isn’t meant to be a review of the book Eating Animals (because book reviews aren’t my forte), more a chronicle of the way my own attitudes and practices have changed. I hope that reading how my thinking and practices has changed will inspire you to eat meat a little more mindfully as well.
“More than any other institution, the American industrial animal farm offers a nightmarish glimpse of what Capitalism can look like in the absence of moral or regulatory constraint. Here, in these places, life itself is redefined–as protein production–and with it, suffering. That venerable word becomes ’stress’, an economic problem in search of a cost-effective solution… The industrialization and dehumanization–of American animal farming is a relatively new, evitable, and local phenomenon: no other country raises and slaughters its food animals quite as intensively or as brutally as we do.” Michael Pollan, essay title “Food with a Face”, quoted in Animal Vegetable Miracle.
As I puzzled through the material, gagging a bit while thinking of chickens unable to walk, pigs having rods shoved up their rectums just for kicks and giggles, cattle being slaughtered alive by profit drive factory line slaughterhouses, my mind started turning to my religious beliefs. It might sound strange, but the more I thought about the LDS view of the Creation and why animals were placed on the earth, the more comfortable I felt about the consumption of animal products. I don’t believe that God intended us to eat no meat. But I do think that he expects us to be respectful toward them. They are his creation just as we are, and they deserve to live and die in dignity. I decided that killing animals to eat them didn’t feel wrong to me, so I would keep eating them.
I am not alone in using my religion to determine my diet, and specifically what animals I feel comfortable eating. Kosher laws determine how an animal must be slaughtered, as well as what animals can and cannot be consumed. The Quran explicity forbids a number of things, including the consumption of pork, and animals must be slaughtered in the name of Allah.
My decision is, I’m sure, partly influenced by my background. My maternal grandparents have a dairy. My paternal grandparents have a ranch. I took pigs to the fair for 6 years. I’ve had lots of close contact with animals destined for human consumption and I don’t feel bad about their eventual destiny. I loved my pigs though, so much that I would often crawl in the pen at the fair with them and lay in the sawdust snuggling up with them, and now that I know how they were slaughtered I do wish their final moments of life had been a bit different. I would still sell them for slaughter, but if I knew then what I know now I would have sought to ensure that the place where they were being killed did so with care and respect.
Once I had decided that I would eat meat, I needed to decide what kind. Free-range/pasture-fed/etc etc. That kind. Why? Because the more I learned about the living conditions of factory farmed and slaughtered animals, the more disgusted I felt that my purchases would contribute to the immense amount of suffering those creatures undergo. I firmly believe that anyone who looks into the way these animals live would seriously reconsider where the meat they are buying comes from (and I understand why so many people become vegetarian or vegan after doing so). I won’t be detailing things here, it’s something that you need to explore for yourself. Reading Eating Animals was a good place for me to start, and Foer has an excellent set of excerpts posted here. His website has a list of resources. The phrases floating in the background on the Eating Animals site link to forum topics where people have posted about questions and realizations they’ve had. If you really want to torture yourself you can watch this video on YouTube. I can’t imagine anyone watching that and not feeling a desire to change.
Now:
- I will not buy meat when I don’t know the source. How it was raised and how it died. I’m trying to buy only when I can purchase directly from the source.
- I will only order vegetarian when we eat out, unless we’re eating at a restaurant that sources humanely raised and slaughtered meat. This is a HUGE change for me, and I confess I’m still getting the hang of it. I just don’t think an animal should have to live and die in a horrible way so that I can have a steak or piece of bacon. I’ll be using the Eat Well Guide to help me find restaurants that focus on local, organic, and sustainable food.
- If the food is prepared or purchased by someone else, and I didn’t have the opportunity to voice my preference, I will eat it even if it’s factory farmed. Why? Because the animal is already dead! They suffered in life and suffered as they were dying and if I just throw that meat out I feel as though I’m wasting their sacrifice. The sandwich I ate at a photography workshop in Houston is an example of that. Yesterday I made tacos with a pound of factory farmed ground beef that has been sitting in our freezer for months. Eating at the homes of friends or family who may not be familiar with my new mindset is another example of a situation where I plan on sitting down to partake of what’s presented to me, no matter where it came from. I hope that one day I will become brave enough to speak up about what I”m trying to do, but I’m afraid of offending those close to me if they think I am preaching to them, and so for now I will be analyzing each situation individually and try to determine whether the meat that was prepared was done so under the assumption that I would be eating it. The dilemma that I face is that I’m not going vegetarian. How do you define the way I’m trying to eat? Awareatarian? Compassionavore?
- I am still buying eggs (albeit from the FM) and I still buy my favorite cheeses at Whole Foods, that likely come from cows that aren’t pasture-fed, even though I know there are troubling facts about the way that chickens and cows are raised in order to produce eggs and dairy at high volume. I’m still trying to decide where that perfect place is for me, and not ready to give up everything yet.
I finished Foer’s book almost a month ago, and I’m still discovering new information that changes my approach. This is definitely a huge learning experience, and I don’t think there is any way I could relate it all to you in one post. For right now I’m buying my meat at the farmer’s market, seeking out booths with signs that talk about humane animal husbandry methods. I’m still not very good at asking questions, but I’m working on it. I asked Sophia, a frequent commenter here on That Wife, if she would be willing to contribute a list of questions someone could ask when purchasing meat locally, to ensure that the provider is treating the animals in a humane way.
For cows meant to be slaughtered, I would ask:
Are they 100% grass fed, or just grass finished?
What slaughtering methods do you use? (ideally the animal will be stunned and completely unconscious before its throat is slit)
Do you remove horns, and if so, what is this process? (horn removal is extremely painful for the animals, and is often done with no pain relief before, during, or after)
How do you deal with “downed” cows?- The video Jenna linked to is unfortunately common practice. Often, downed cows are just piled in a back alley and left to slowly suffer and die of starvation, exposure, or dehydration.For Dairy cows-
Are the calves kept with their mothers? If not,how soon are they removed, and where do they go?- All of the small farmer’s market farmers told me their calves were sent to veal crates.
If so, ask “What are the conditions of the veal operations to which your calves are sent? — I have to admit here, I personally don’t think there is such a thing as “humane veal”, but some operations now put them in pens instead of in crates. Still tiny, inside, they don’t get to go out in the sunshine and grass, and they are still fed a manipulated diet to keep the flesh supple, but it’s better than the crates in the dark where they cannot move at all. Also, I have come across two farmers, commenting on blogs, who say they let their calves nurse twice a day, because it makes them stronger and keeps the mother cow from being distressed. So, while extremely, extremely rare, you might be lucky enough to be near a farmer who allows the babies nurse periodically.
Do you send pregnant cows to slaughter?
Do you dock tails? —There is NO REASON to do this. Mrs. Niman, of Niman ranch fame, despises the practice.
How are your dairy cows slaughtered?
And then just general questions about lifestyle- do they get to graze on grass, are they allowed outside, etc.Eggs-
Do you have a hatchery onsite, or do you purchase your hens from a hatchery?
How are the unwanted male chicks disposed of at the hatchery/how do you dispose of the unwanted male chicks at your hatchery?
Do you de-beak your hens?- De-beaking is really only necessary if the hens are kept so close together and stressed out that they can peck at one another. To me, de-beaking says “yeah, we really pack ‘em in, and they pretty much never go outside”. De-beaking is not needed with truly free range hens.
What are they fed?
Do your hens regularly get outside, to scratch and dust bathe and be in the sunshine?- Free range does not guarantee this, and cage free just means they can be locked in those barns like in “Food, Inc.”
How do you slaughter your hens once they are finished?Pigs-
How do you slaughter?
How are your nursing sows treated?
Do you dock tails?
Similar questions to slaughter cows regarding getting to go outside, diet, etc.And of course any other questions you might have about antibiotics use/organic methods/etc. Waste management is also a topic to inquire about, as contamination of our public water supplies by domestic animal production is a very big problem.
I hope this post has made you think a little bit, and that you will spend some time looking into where the animal products you consume come from and what practices you do and don’t feel comfortable with. I still have a long ways to go, and my incredible love for cheese will mean that I might never give up “conventional” ones. But just like I talked about last week in my voting with your food dollars post, each decision we make makes a difference. If one less animal suffers because of my choices, I think that’s a pretty good place to start.
To wrap this (very long) post up, a few last words of wisdom from Cristin and Sophia.
Cristin:
I am thrilled that Jenna was so invigorated by the copy of Eating Animals that I sent. When I first read this book, I had already read Singer’s “Eating Animals,” Nestle’s “Food Politics,” and the requisite Pollen assortment. I knew a lot of the truths of factory farming, but I didn’t know how to share them with my friends and family. Foer’s writing style is what made the material more accessible. He acknowledges in the book that changing even small parts of your diet is really difficult, because of our emotional connection to foods. I recently heard him speak and he admitted to still eating eggs, even though he hopes that someday, he will be able to give them up. I haven’t been able to change my diet as significantly as Jenna has, though I applaud her for her commitment and devotion to providing the healthiest and most ethical food options that are available to her. Foer and his book aren’t pushing 100% vegetarianism as the only option. He shared a conversation that he had with one of the NY Times food critics as an example of a positive small change; the food critic has gone on record as being a “vegetarian until dinner.” What’s important is creating a massive demand for ethically produced meat, which will eventually change the standards for all producers. Hopefully Jenna’s blog can help generate conversation and investigation in the homes of her many readers and help propel gradual change.
Sophia (who writes a fabulous food blog that will help you understand what a vegan eats on a daily basis!):
While learning about the massive factory farming institution can be overwhelming, the good news is that there are all kinds of ways to avoid it in ways that work for each individual. Jenna decided she was ok with eating meat, but wanted that meat to be raised and slaughtered humanely. Some people are weekday vegetarians, some take part in Meatless Mondays, some only eat meat they hunted. At this point in my life, from ethical, environmental, and health perspectives, a vegan diet is right for me. If I liked meat more, I would probably be seeking out meat following standards similar to Jenna’s. However, giving up meat was not a sacrifice for me, and instead of focusing on finding humane sources of meat, I choose to focus on getting protein from other sources. I believe that both my choice to eat a vegan diet, and Jenna’s choice to eat humanely raised meat, are beneficial to animal welfare and to personal health. It’s all about evaluating one’s priorities, lifestyle, and personal preference. It can seem daunting, as though one person won’t make a difference, but if you think about it, most of us eat about three times a day. Voting with our dollar, when it comes to food, is one of the most frequent forms of activism you can take part in.
Not sure where to start? Signing up for the weekly Meatless Monday email is a great first step. Seek out others in your area trying to live their life the same way using the Slow Food site, and let them share with you what they know. Find a local farm or farmer’s market and buy your meat there (yes it will cost more, but if you eat less you should end paying about the same amount as before!). Eat Wild will help you find farmers that will ship directly to you!
Also:
I'm a farm-raised almost-crunchy stroller-pushing picture-taking lifestyle-blog-writing gastronomy-obsessed divine-seeking thrift-store-combing cheese-inhaling pavement-pounding laughter-sprinkling lover of individuality and taking chances.
I eat a very protein heavy/carb light diet, which means lots of meat, BUT we only buy our meat and eggs from our local butcher. Local butchers have a tendency (at least in all the cities I’ve lived in) to be organic much more so than the supermarket. All their meat and eggs come from local small farms, 100% organic. I went organic (as much as I can anyway) years ago, not just for the way the animals are treated but to avoid the hormones and antibiotics that go into dairy cows and other animals to get the desired amount of eggs/milk/meat out of their animals. Unfortunately small local butchers are being pushed out of business by supermarkets and are sometimes hard to come by especially in smaller cities, but if you have a butcher in your area they’re definitely a meat alternative to supermarket meats.
1Great post, Jenna! I always love what you write on food and nutrition. (Perhaps it’s because it’s what we see most eye-to-eye on, haha!)
As a vegetarian, the thing that has helped me most eating out is simply opening a dialogue with my server. They can help determine so many things (like if the soup has chicken broth, what’s truly vegetarian, etc) and it’s helped me to find meat in surprising places (Wolfgang Puck’s spinach ravioli, for one!) Luckily more and more places are putting a V on the menu next to veggie options, and Chicago is becoming very vegetarian and vegan friendly with entire restaurants meat-free and places like Uncommon Ground, which specialize in both veggie and meat cuisine.
I’ve actually been eating vegan for the past week or so after reading up about things like debeaking, etc, and while I don’t think it will be a permanent change, I do think that everyone should try a few vegetarian or vegan days once in awhile. It really makes you aware of what’s in your food and what you’re putting into your body. I think it was Linda McCartney who said that if slaughterhouses had glass walls, we’d all be vegetarians. I know vegetarianism isn’t for everyone, but the simple act of asking where your food came from, like you advocate for, can make such a difference in the lives of animals.
2This probably won’t fit into your locavore likings, but I read this post and then visited this website and the two clicked together in my mind and I thought maybe other readers would want to see:
http://www.grasslandbeef.com/StoreFront.bok
It’s too rich for my blood, but if you have the money in the budget for it and you want to eat more humanely treated animals, it might be another good starting point.
As for me… organic/local/humane food is something that I keep putting on the back burner in my mind and that keeps getting moved to the front burner by various things (lately, YOU, Jenna! /mock glare). I struggle with this, because I really feel convicted to look into it more but am seriously worried I will get to a place where I will feel convicted to make a change and not have the means to do so (my husband is about to be a graduate student and it offends my financial sensibilities to live off of school loans to the tune of $5.85/lb of ground beef). I know you’d probably say “vote with your dollars” but I really think it’d come down to food or say, car insurance or tithing. I guess I just don’t know what to do but feel like at some point pretty soon a decision is going to have to be reached.
MrsW Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 12:48 am
And I should say, we share a home with his parents and thus our food decisions are their food decisions for the next 5 years or so… and they are really struggling financially. Could you do a post or link to resources on eating humanely on a tight budget?
Jenna Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 1:01 am
I don’t think I am qualified to write that post, but I hope someone who is will read this and give you some ideas! I don’t think we spend an insane amount on food, but I know we definitely aren’t in the same situation you are.
Jackie Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 8:27 am
When I was a Jesuit Volunteer, I had a tiny budget and my community still valued eating ethically. Here are a few of my tips:
Buy things in bulk. We bought organic spices because they were way cheaper to get out of the bulk bin than they would’ve been to buy a tiny jar of McCormick. Same with things like olive oil, wheat, oatmeal, rice. I’ve never been to a Whole Foods but I think they are similar to the store we shopped at, where most stuff is expensive but the bulk foods are cheap.
Try quinoa. It’s a cheap grain like rice but its a great source of protein and thus can help you cut down on your meat consumption. Same goes with lentils.
Root vegetables (potatoes, carrots, beets) last longer and thus you can buy them at their peak when they are cheapest. Same is true for squash, buy it in the fall from a farmer’s market when its dirt cheap and if you store it right, it will last a long time. In general, buy things in season - they are cheaper.
Try a CSA (community supported agriculture). Its the cheapest way to buy produce, even cheaper than grocery stores and farmer’s market.
If you still want to eat meat, and even if you want to eat it daily, try eating less than a serving. For instance, instead of having a chicken breast for dinner, mix up half a chicken breast in stir fry. You won’t really notice its less.
Last, think about picking one food group to buy ethically. For my fiance and I, we plan on buying our dairy products organic because we notice a huge difference in taste. We can’t afford to go all out, but its nice to know that in one area we will be making good decisions.
Stephanie Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 3:31 am
This is a reason why going vegetarian may be a good idea. I hope I don’t sound preachy at all, but my husband and I have saved money by not eating meat (going on 5 months). I don’t have numbers, but one step you could take is to get certain vegetables organic and others not. For instance, it’s important (in my eyes) to eat organic vegetables that come in direct contact with the soil. Bananas (a fruit, sorry ;), corn, etc aren’t as important to buy organic because they’ve got little cover on them.
Ideally we would be able to buy everything organic/local, but I know its often hard to afford. Start small and see what else you can incorporate. Hope that helped.
Hannah Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 5:02 am
I also have that problem with really not wanting to pay the high prices for organic/local food, especially when it’s not easily accessible. (In college, I was in a town with a huge farmer’s market and ate lots of local meat. Now, I would have to go to Whole Foods to find that kind of thing and it’s just too expensive.) While I’m not vegetarian at all, I do eat much less meat, to save money and make myself feel better. If I can’t buy humane meat, at least I can help the environment by eating less of it. So my husband and I eat vegetarian or fish as often as we can. If we do eat meat, it’s often a little bit of bacon in soup or something like that. So, for example, rather than making tacos, we make vegetarian fajitas, with black beans, grilled peppers and onions, cheese, and homemade guacamole, and don’t even miss the meat! We also do a lot of the salmon with rice and vegetable kind of meals, and we eat a lot of Indian food, which is mostly vegetarian. I’m a huge fan of beans and chickpeas as a protein source!
I do still buy conventional milk and cheese, though, because they’re so expensive anyway that I can’t justify buying organic (and I drink a lot of milk). And I still buy more cheap meat than I’d like, but I’m trying to wean myself off boneless, skinless, tasteless chicken breasts and the like.
Kate Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 11:23 am
Our grocery budget is $30/week, and we eat like kings! Add to that the $15/week ($300/season) we spend on our CSA, and our total grocery budget is $45/week.
Some of our decisions are health driven, some are wallet driven.
-we eat less meat, but we spend more on the meat we eat
-we put less meat than called for in recipes
-we use bacon for a lot of meals for flavoring. Great for pastas and salads.
-we buy meat in bulk when we can. Share a side or quarter of a cow with friends-you’ll save a lot.
-we dilute our juice (1 64oz container a week) and we don’t drink soda or milk
-we pick fruit at PYO farms and can/freeze it for the winter so we’re not buying things off season.
-we don’t buy things at the supermarket that are off season.
You have to work at it, but it is possible to drastically reduce the amount you spend on food.
For some serious drasticness, check out this guy: http://www.grocerycouponguide.com/articles/eating-well-on-1-a-day-day-1-what-i-bought/
He did an entire month on $31. He’s a far better couponer than I, and he’s willing to eat things that aren’t part of my diet, but I still learned a lot.
We’re not doing this because we don’t have the money to pay for food-we do-we just choose to spend our money differently, to vote with our dollars, and still eat really well with a bit of ingenuity and some time.
I LOVE Compassionavore. I love it. I’m gonna adopt it.
I just finished reading Farm City: the Education of an Urban Farmer by Novella Carpenter. It’s about a woman who lives in Oakland, CA, and embarks on raising her own animals for meat purposes. It’s a really insightful read, and had me feeling a lot more aware of how wasteful I have been with my meat in the past, and how it’s disrespectful to the animal to allow meat to go to waste. I’m bad at this, but I really recommend it. There’s a not so well written review up on my blog.
I have been wanting to read Eating Animals for awhile now. I’ll have to go add it to my library list.
4While you are still in Dallas, check out the Urban Acres market, though it is a drive for you. There are also a load of restaurants that wilfit your goals in the Bishops Arts District, Lower Greenville, Knox/Henderson, and Uptown. Wish I could help you with Chicago!
5Can’t remember the name of the vegetarianism book I read, but it definately made me have the same thoughts about how we treat animals and our religious point of view. I feel that God created these animals for us and if we choose to eat them, that’s fine (albiet “sparingly”), but surely God did not intend for His 4-legged creatures to be treated cruelly. I’m sure it saddens Him when we don’t use our domain over them correctly and respectfully.
Have I gone as far as hunting down where my meat comes from? Uh, not quite yet, though sometimes I try to buy the eggs from the cage-free and all that. I even thought about investigating local farms/pastures online that allow their animals roam and be grass fed and all that good stuff (but haven’t done it yet :{ )
I like that you mentioned not making a big deal of it when at friends/family until everyone knows of how you feel and can perhaps even plan accordingly. You’re right - people don’t like to be preached to. They’ll either change themselves or think of your ideas in their meal planning when you are coming over - but it won’t happen if you act disrespectful of the meal they’ve provided you.
Good, informative post as always!
Stephanie Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 3:35 am
Just wanted to point out that a lot of times cage-free and free range mean different things. I was surprised to find that you can call some eggs cage-free if they have as little as 20 minutes time outside.
Kristin ~ Bien Living Design Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 9:36 am
I think the advice from Sophia in Jenna’s post is a good way to clarify this - ask the farmer!
Kristin ~ Bien Living Design Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 9:37 am
I meant to add: Because it IS so confusing!
Ohh…actually…you will have access to Trader Joes in Chicago-lucky you!
Kelli Nicole Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 8:56 am
She will?!? Oh, I had not thought of this. How I miss TJ’s. Every time I take my TJ cloth bags to the grocery store new Texans ask if there’s one nearby.
Kristin ~ Bien Living Design Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 9:38 am
Yep, there is a Trader Joe’s right in Lincoln Park (which is where I not-so-secretly hope that Jenna and TH end up living!)!
Sarah for Real Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 10:39 am
I did a post a while back, “Questioning Trader Joes.” (Click over to my blog and hit Real Favorites.) It explains why TJ’s is a “mock” organic-local grocer and Jenna probably will prefer to use Farmer’s Markets where she can ask those great questions of the farmers themselves.
Jenna Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 5:37 pm
Great post Sarah! I didn’t know any of that.
Want to know what I just learned a bout Pike’s Place?
Sellers inside the PP strip are buying from who knows where.
Sellers outside are local producers! I wish they would make this public knowledge.
Jenna Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 5:39 pm
Also, I loved your post on why you are not a vegetarian. Kind of feels like I could have written it myself! Maybe someday when I come back to Washington for a longer period of time we can meet in person, I think we would really get along!
Sarah for Real Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 6:59 pm
Yes I think so too! It’s a date
I didn’t know about Pike Place… So the street vendors are local but the permanent ones inside the market are not? I’ll have to watch for that, I had no idea! Thanks!
So happy that you posted this. I didn’t get to read the entire thing through (thought I will in the morning), but I wanted to say a few things before heading to bed:
Thank you for providing that Eat Well link. Part of the reason I decided to go vegetarian (though in truth I am flexitarian) is because I CAN’T know where my meat comes from in most restaurants. Im challenging myself in eating a mostly pescatarian lifestyle. I tell my family I am vegetarian & but exclude the fish part, mostly because my rules may seem confusing to them. I refuse to eat endangered fish (yellowtail, bluefin tuna, certain types of salmon, etc). It gets too confusing for them to remember that I eat certain fish and I will eat meat on holidays, only when I know where it comes from.
Also, if I am at someone elses house and they prepared a meal made for me, it’s origins unknown, I wouldn’t refuse because it would be rude.. and like you said.. it’s already bought and already dead.
Initially I thought I would try to be vegetarian for a year and then slowly incorporate meat back into my diet, but the more I move along in this lifestyle, the harder I think it will be. Making veggie meals gets easier, but I have found it to be hard at times - I am almost at 5 months.
I hope all that made sense. Maybe I’ll have more to say tomorrow morning
Sarah for Real Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 10:41 am
I also wanted to say Thanks for the Eat Well link! There are many places on there that I frequent already but a few I hadn’t heard of. I’ll seek them out!
I really, really liked this post, Jenna. Dan’s mom is ALL about no meat for herself and only organic/humane meat for the rest of us. I think it is a great idea, and in theory, I want to make more humane, organic purchases in the future. I know that giving up meat is something that will never happen for me or Dan, but I do think that we should spend our money more wisely. Only problem for us now is that we live in a city and the “local” resources are 40 minutes in any direction. Plus we’re poor. I look forward to our future in the burbs when we have paychecks and can afford to eat this way. Go You!
9Great Post! It reminds me of one over on Healthy Tipping Point about Ethical Eating.
10I have been a vegetarian for the last 3 months for health reasons but before I gave up all my meat products came from the local butchers who have certification for all their meat (the farm of origin, whether organic or free range, where it was slaughtered etc)
My partner still eats meat and still purchases from there. Yeah it is more expensive but it is the right think to do.
I dont drink milk but that comes from the local dairy for my partner, and all our eggs come from a local farm. Again, pricier but it makes us happier with that we are doing our bit.
It can be difficult for people to buy organic/freerange etc all the time as it is dearer but if everyone takes small steps to make sure that their food choices are as mindful and ethical as THEY can be at that time we will get there.
Sorry for the long post, but I felt that you really covered this topic well!
I’m on the same page with my meat eating. And since it is more expensive to eat free-range, organic, etc, I eat less of it. Lots of beans & lentils in my life now. Toot, toot!
I do still struggle with eating strictly veg when eating out, though. I don’t eat out often and we choose a local/organic restaurant half the time, but it’s still a struggle that other 50% of the time. However, I continue to evolve my eating to being more and more exclusively local/organic/whole foods, so I’m sure the commitment to the eating out change is right in my near future.
One other area that is hard is eating at friends and families houses and giving that food to my 14-month-old. For the most part I just roll with it - that was food prepared lovingly for me and my family and it’s just an occasional thing. But it does require me to shut off a part of my brain.
Love these food philosophy posts. You say the things I’m scared to say on my own blog
Laura
11Thank you. I’ve been on the fence for awhile now about how I wanted to deal with this situation ever since I watched a documentary about this. That documentary was also not pushing a vegetarian or vegan agenda, it was just informative, and I was horrfied. You made my decision to cut WAY back and to start buying organic/grass fed, etc. Unfortunately, I live in NYC, so not too many local farmers =o) But Ill make do. Thank you for some enlightenment
12I don’t know if it’s because we’re so close to Wisconsin, but it’s not hard to find local, small-farm-produced “happy cheese” in Chicago. Finding ethical meat is a real struggle for us (and we now eat considerably less red meat than we used to - once or twice a week, as opposed to every day in the past), and I wish I could find decent eggs (my parents’ neighbors in Ohio have chickens in their yard… those eggs are delicious and you can go over and hang out with their chickens - love it!), but cheese? Totally manageable up here. It’s not cheap but it’s really delicious.
Thanks for posting this. I’ve wanted to pick up “Eating Animals” but - this is going to sound petty - that cover is so inflammatory (neon! green!) that if I’m with someone they roll their eyes at me for even considering it. It _looks_ preachy. Are there other editions out yet? Or should I just invest in a brown paper cover?
Kristin ~ Bien Living Design Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 10:00 am
It looks like it’s a hardback - just take the book jacket off & it’s probably a neutral color underneat
Jenna Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 4:51 pm
My family (one set of grandparents are cattle ranchers, the other are dairy farmers) was not thrilled about the name of this book. Much skepticism was expressed at our family reunion where I was reading it!
Jenna, I totally applaud you for your post! It’s great that you are raising awareness. If I may, I would like to tell you about the resistance we feel when we tell people about our lifestyle (mostly vegan, mostly raw, little chicken- maybe once a month.) It should be noted that we also let people know up front when we are invited for dinner the way we eat, and that we are willing to bring something to share for everyone to try. Lots of times there are no problems and we all have a good experience, however, we have have a few encounters that have cost us friendships with even members of our own faith because they disagree with our lifestyle. It’s sad, but it’s the reality for us. I find it silly to not continue being friends with someone because they eat meat- so why would it be the reverse? Who really knows, right? In any case, it does take a lot to be brave, and I think that your strength is shown here! You’ve publicly made your lifestyle known and opened yourself to comments from all of your blog readers. That, in my opinion, is pretty darn brave! Way to be.
Kristin ~ Bien Living Design Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 10:12 am
Hi Rachel! I’ve tried commenting on your blog numerous times and I think something is wrong with it - it keeps deleting my post saying I need to enter a valid email address. I’ve tried it 4 times and am giving up - thought you might like to know what is going on!!
Anyway, here is what I said:
I just posted a looong reply and it was all deleted when it said I didn’t fill out the fields properly - I hope it works this time, as it isn’t clear what you’re supposed to enter in the top box! (this is now the 4th and last time trying it!)
Anyway, what it came down to is this - followed you from Jenna’s blog, like what you have to say, love the recipe and what are your thoughts on peanut butter substitues like Sunflower Butter, etc?
Hope this works!!
Rachel Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 10:32 am
Yikes! I am so sorry that it’s having issues! I just checked it- I will have my web guy get on that today. Back to the good stuff: Thank you for your kind words. And, sunflower butter is an AWESOME sub for peanut butter. Peanuts are pretty high in mold content, so we are really cautious with how much we eat. That said, we like to use sunflower butter (SO easy to make!), almond butter, cashew butter, and sometimes for a treat hazelnut butter. SInce we use raw nuts, we keep it in the refrigerator when we are done making them. But roasted nut or seed butters are just as easy to make. If you need some recipes, leave a message here (until I get that blasted website fixed) and I will get them to you.
Kristin ~ Bien Living Design Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 10:36 am
Oh, thanks for responding! Yeah, thought you might like to know what’s going on with your site
The reason I asked about Sunflower Butter is b/c our son has a nut allergy - glad to know that you love it! & I would love a recipe for it, if you have one!
Also, green smoothies! Any recipes for those?
Thanks!
Jenna Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 5:34 pm
Do you know about the Green Monster site? http://greenmonstermovement.com/
Kristin ~ Bien Living Design Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 10:37 am
p.s. you can email me at kristin AT bienlivingdesign DOT com
Rachel Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 10:50 am
I will e-mail you this afternoon with those things. I’ve got to get a few together before I send them, and Need to finish up something before I get to it, but it will be on its way shortly.
Great post. I was vegetarian for six years but started eating meat again when I did a study abroad program in Peru and lived with a family. I ate what they ate and I just couldn’t express myself well enough to say I was vegetarian. It seemed like such a first-world issue… like the rich American was choosing to not eat something that is a treat for many Peruvians. I was so conflicted.
Fast forward several years and I am married to a man who grew up in a vegetarian home and is a hardcore meat eater. “Where’s the beef?” may be his favorite phrase. He and I are apart this summer because of his job and I find myself eating almost exclusively vegetarian — and loving it. I love a good steak too much to go back to my veg days but I really like the idea of thinking of meat as a treat, not as a constant. I have also started eating vegan once a week. It will be interesting to see how things shake up when the hubs comes home. I am going to continue my meat-as-a-treat lifestyle and hope it rubs off on him (doubtful). I know we will stop buying the big bags of frozen chicken breasts that have sustained us for the past few years, though…
Sophia Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 11:21 am
Phruphru-
I’m glad you brought up your Peru story. I was just talking about this issue with my partner. We’re both looking into the Peace Corps, and we’re fully prepared to eat whatever is offered. If I was in the Peace Corps and a local goat farmer, whose family has been goat farmers for generations on their land, invited me to their home for dinner and they served goat, I would eat it. To some, that might sound like situational ethics, to me, it’s just being logical. About 99% of my issues with eating meat and animal products have to do with the way they are raised and treated, and if we’re talking living out in a little village somewhere for two years as a Peace Corps volunteer, if I refused that food I would be imposing first world, American food issues on a 3rd world food system to which it didn’t apply.
Cristin Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 2:56 pm
Funny follow-up - through an educational program in college, I spent some time in a Hmong village in Thailand. I have several food allergies, one of them being carrots. Like Sophia and phruphru, I didn’t feel that it would be appropriate to refuse the local food (nor did I have any way of gracefully explaining my allergies), so I had two nights and two days of vegetable stew.
My “carrot rash” broke out the second morning and lastest just under a week. Its just itchy and odd-looking, but not horrible to bear. It turned out that I met my husband on this trip to Asia, and we always joke that he met me at my most awkward!
Sophia Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 5:42 pm
That’s a great “how we met” story
Jenna, I ADORE that you are posting about this. I’m on the same track as you, still feeling out the ways I can change my eating habits toward being a “compassionavore” (LOVE that term, and when it catches on, I’ll remember you coined it). Keep spreading the word; you don’t know how many people you could be affecting
16I can’t even read those stories of factory farming, it makes me too uncomfortable. I’m so glad, though, that these practices are getting more attention. Thank you for writing about what you’ve read. You probably know that the whole industry has changed in the last 50 years. It wasn’t always this awful.
I am a long-time vegetarian and after learning about what I’m eating, I’m a new vegan. I’ll be reading Sophia’s blog now. I admire anyone who puts thought into what they feed their body, and those choices are personal. And they can change as you learn more and feed yourself differently.
Finally, on the topic of religious guidance (I think dominion over animals is more akin to what you’ve described rather than factory farming, duh.) - have you heard of Ezekiel Bread from Food for Life? I love that stuff. Look for it in the freezer section. It’s from Ezekiel 4:9., “Take also unto thee Wheat, and Barley, and beans, and lentils, and millet, and Spelt, and put them in one vessel, and make bread of it…”
17As I’ve said before my husband is pescatarian, so we do eat eggs, dairy and fish (from time to time).
Cheese I think is very hard because well the good ones and my favorite French ones do come from far away and I have no way to check how the cows/sheep/goats are treated. And as you said just the fact they don’t get slaughtered doesn’t me they are treated right. But I feel it’s one thing I’m willing to close my eyes for.
Restaurant wise, I do tend to be more lax because it’s a special occasion. Although most of the time I choose vegetarian or seafood just because I hate choosing out of a big menu.
Other people’s house, they know my husband won’t eat the meat, but they know I will eat it, again because it’s already prepared and a special occasion although I don’t eat big quantities.
Eggs, I could probably improve this, it’s something I’ve been struggling with: do I want to pay twice the price and get local, free roaming, organic eggs, or pay the regular price for just cage free and antibiotic free. Probably something I’ll need to discuss with my husband so we can make the decision together. I thought about it yesterday at the farmer’s market but decided for the cheaper supermaket one at that point.
Oh and yes, by the way, thank you for your farmer’s market post. I went to the tailgate market up on my street yesterday (I’m so lucky I know). I got to go right at the beginning got 1/2 pound of watercress, organic corn, organic cherry tomatoes and organic snap peas for $16. More than I would normally pay for so little, but they were all organic practices, local and also some items you just can’t find in the store (the variety of cherry tomatoes and watercress). I was proud of myself for asking “where is your farm” “are you organic or conventional” (they were not certified, but after reading some local farmer’s website, I understood that when they deal directly with the consumer, they don’t get the certification because it doesn’t raise the prices that way). So thank you.
18I love this post and think that you offered the average person great tips to consume in an ethical manner. I think you are doing a wonderful job of changing your families eating habits.
It is a goal of mine to eat mindfully. Like you I will not turn down unethically raised meat when I am eating with friends/family because the “damage” has already been done and there is no reason to waste. But in my own house I work to eat ethically.
I have always eaten beef raised by my family and would never change that. We eat meat that is pastured all summer and fed a diet of hay and grain in the winter. Many people are against grain feed, but in order for our animals to maintain a level of fat to keep them comfortable through the winters in the northeast. We feel it does more good, than harm to feed a limited amount of grain. Our animals have ample room to roam and seem genuinely content with their environment at the farm.
When we are ready to butcher, we take our animals in personally and we know the practices of our slaughter house. We still use the same slaughter house that my family has used for the last 30 years. After watching Food Inc, I decided to take on additional responsibilities to ensure that my food is ethically raised. I have acquired 25 chickens to provide my eggs and also to sell at work. This will help other people around me to obtain eggs from a source that treats the animals well. Not only am I reducing my use of commercial eggs, but I’m also reducing the consumption of those eggs from others around me. Next spring, I intend to take my initiative even further and raise meat birds as well as pigs. The pigs will be raised for slaughter and will be taken to the same slaughter house that we use for our cattle. We will be slaughtering the meat birds ourselves. I feel that by slaughtering and preparing my own meat, I will have a greater respect for the animal and prepare and eat my meat with care.
While this approach would not work for many people, this is the most ethical and cost effective way for me and my family to eat. I hope that at some point I can produce the majority, if not all of the food that my family consumes.
Jenna Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 4:51 pm
This sounds SO dreamy. Did you read Anne of Green Gables as a girl like I did? I always wanted to turn to this “pastoral” lifestyle at one point in my life.
Great post! I’m lucky to get all my eggs as well as the occasional hunk of goat meat from my parents! Eggs from my parents’ chickens are so much tastier than eggs from the store! (And more colorful, too-I got green and brown eggs yesterday!) I’ve really been meaning to start going to the farmers market more often in lieu of the grocery store. I think this post help inspire me to do so!
20I learned about factory farming around the time I became a vegetarian (five years ago), and I’ve not been able to eat meat since. I’ve also nearly completely cut out dairy and eggs, and when I do consume them, I try to buy them from humane sources. However, if you’re going to eat meat, I think you have the right approach. There are so many problems with factory farms even going past inhumane animal treatment (the environment, the impact on the workers, the spread of diseases, etc.). I wish everyone ate less meat and made sure to source it from local farmers with humane, ecologically sound sources.
All that said, I haven’t read this book yet. I’ll have to add it to my list. I’m a big Michael Pollan fan, though.
21Nice post. I gave up meat entirely when I was 15 and then when I was 18 I had to add chicken and fish back in (I’m now 28). I never loved eating meat and never missed it. Sometimes I think of buying the meat available at the farmers market, but I’m just not craving meat.
I will cook hamburgers if we have a friend over, or for my husband.
Good luck with you new attempt to change your diet. I think you’re heading in the right direction. I hope that you haven’t made the change so drastic that it’s impossible to adhere to.
22Also, I have basically restricted my husband to my chicken and fish diet. But he occasionally eats meat at lunch, and whenever we go to his parents or grandparents they make him steak.
23Both our families have heart disease and cholesterol problems. My family follows the same diet now too. When we have kids I will have them follow my diet at home, but whatever they choose outside of our home.
A really interesting post, thanks Jenna! I have been thinking about how much meat I eat and trying to restrict it somehow, or at least buying much better reared meat. This has given me more reason to try and be even better at eating less but ‘better’ meat. If you understand what I mean by better, organic, reared well, slaughtered humanely etc. Looking forward to hearing more about this.
24This was a really thoughtful post on the subject. Like you I have no intention of giving up meat — I enjoy it and I don’t have a moral issue with it. But the more I learn about factory farming practices, the more I do want to change at least my source and give up the frequency at which I eat it. We raise these animals for the sole purpose of consuming them, so they deserve to be treated humanely.
25It’ll be a big lifestyle change for us, but it’s something we need to do.
Fascinating post, Jenna. I am going to be re-reading this soon, as I hope to really think about what meat I actually do eat. Since I write a lot about eating out for my blog, I think that’s going to be a bit harder in that respect, but I think my home will be the primary place I can put this into action. I have to admit that I was sooo excited to read Omnivore’s Dilemma and I have been finding it hard to even make it through the first chapter. I will have to pick it back up. Apparently I’ve been told that you should read OD before In Defense of Food.
As for your faith issues and influencing eating habits, a personal example for me is my mother who is a Seventh-Day Adventist (I’m not). Many SDAs don’t eat meat and abstain from shellfish and pork similar to Kosher requirements. That being said, I don’t think that they do so from the point of view you are advocating here about eating in a mindful way.
Thanks for another great post.
Sarah for Real Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 2:42 pm
I wouldn’t worry about what order you read OD or Defense. I also found OD a little, um… thick. I got through about 1/4 before it was due back at the library. I might pick it up again sometime though because the subject matter IS different than In Defense.
Defense suggests things that you should actually eat and why. If I remember right, OD is more of a description of our food system. (Or maybe that was just the first 1/4? Haha)
Way to stand up for what you believe. As a child of an organic black angus beef farmer, I only buy my parents beef. I go out of my way (its a 3hr drive to my parents farm from where I live now) to go my parents market to get my meat, chicken, pork, and other meats. It really helps now that my parents run their market, now if it was only closer! In my opinion its worth the extra money, to ensure that the farmer will be able to continue to provide quality meat, and to ensure that my family gets the best food possible.
Sophia Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 11:01 am
I love to hear things like this. Your commitment to your ethics is really impressive.
I absolutely love this post. I am a vegetarian, but my husband is not. I have considered going back to eating meat, but I think it would be very, very difficult for me. If I do, I would certainly be a Compassionavore (love that!). However, IF I read these books, it will almost certainly ensure that that never happens - I would never eat meat again. This is the dilemma I face. Reading your post actually makes a positive case of eating meat, but only under the strictest guidelines, as listed above.
Like I mentioned, my husband does eat meat. I would love for him to jump on this bandwagon, but it will be more difficult to persuade him. This is partially my fault, as I’ve been waxing philosophical about only organic shopping at the farmers market..and then not go. He does the majority of the grocery shopping, so I will have to take the initiative for there to be any change in our eating habits.
This is something that is important to me, but why am I so lazy about it?! I really need to get on the ball. Thanks for this post!
Sara Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 11:57 am
Kristin,
My husband is an avid meat eater and I was a vegetarian when we got married. I’ve since introduced meat back into my diet, but have been very mindful of where it comes from. After watching Food, Inc. together he’s nowmuch more open to spending more money to get a better, more humanely treated product. He’s even emailing me sites of where we can get humanely raised meat!
And, yes, reading these books and watching these documentaries does have me leaning back to being a vegetarian. And, I am whenever he travels (which is often) and for breakfasts and lunches.
Try watching it together. Just a suggestion.
I have always been in love with animals and hate how they’re treated. I’ve wanted to go vegetarian for years but hate veggies and am allergic to some - what the heck would I eat? But this post made a point I’d never thought of: compasionaore! Brilliant. I will definitely be spending some time learning more and making some changes.
Evelyn Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 2:18 pm
beans and rice!
Also, Chicago has a great meat market - Paulina Meat Market. I wonder if it’s possible to find out where they source their meat from, as that may be an option for you when the Farmers Markets close down for the winter.
30Jenna,
I like all your thoughts about mindful eating and thinking about where the food comes from?
How do you feel about “organic” meat? Once I saw a farmer who was interviewed about organic methods. He had free-range, mostly grass fed beef, but I remember him saying sometime to the tune of: If my animals are sick, I refuse to not treat them and let them die. If there is a drought and the grass is dead and dry, I will feed my animals. I refuse to let them starve. I’d rather take care of my animals than be labeled organic.
Also how would you feel about meat that was obtained through hunting?
Just wondering!
Jenna Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 5:32 pm
I don’t pay as much attention to certified organic, which is why I like to buy from the supplier. A lot of farmers aren’t certified organic, but they are farming organically. When it comes to meat I care more about how the animals are treated than whether they are fed grain through the winter (I DO care whether they are fed a vegetarian diet or not. Cows shouldn’t be eating ground up chickens! And vice versa)
I’m not against hunting, and neither is the Church, but the Church has said that hunting solely for sport is not okay, and I agree. If you’re going to hunt, it should be because you are going to make use of it (and make use of as much of the animal as possible).
great post jenna! i continue to strive to feed my family with organic and humane food. i use http://www.certifiedhumane.org to search for humane meat and http://www.wspa-usa.org/pages/2826_find_humane_food.cfm to find other humane food. the wspa site gives you dairy, eggs and meats based on the grocery store you shop. it even gives a humane rating. with these websites i think it is possible to always make animal friendly choices.
Jenna Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 5:32 pm
Thanks so much for telling me about this great resource!
Yesterday at SuperTarget I saw grass-fed steaks for sale from a local cattle producer. They’ve carried grass-fed ground beef from the local producer for a while but only the co-ops around here had ever offered the steaks. I was thrilled to see it! Little by little, the compassionate, natural, pastured food movement is gaining momentum.
I’m completely satisfied that our meat is acceptable. I either buy directly from the farmer or at the co-op and after living outside and eating grass our cow was processed here: http://www.lorentzmeats.com/index.cfm which is the processing plant Michael Pollan mentioned in Omnivore’s Dilemma. We’re so lucky it’s nearby!
I am, however, concerned about our dairy. We buy a lot of our cheese from a local co-op creamery but it isn’t close enough to be convenient and we still buy conventional shredded cheese and cheese slices for sandwiches. Because we’ve cut down on meat, we eat a lot of greek yogurt for protein, string cheese, cottage cheese, etc. You can buy some cheese at the farmer’s markets but yogurt and cottage cheese are rare. We’re pretty much left with the local co-op (which carries most the brands the grocery store does) or the regular old grocery store. We’re able to get milk that we’re satisfied with concerning the treatment of the cows, but all other dairy seems to be a great mystery. With all of the attention being turned towards the animals we eat, there’s not nearly enough attention on the animals whose milk and milk products we consume!
Sophia Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 10:56 am
I actually just found an amazing goat dairy, called Red Hill Farms. They’re in California, so they’re not local, but they were the 1st Humane Certified goat dairy in the U.S., they have videos up on their site showing the farm, the kids get to stay with their moms for a bit on what they call a “maternity leave”, and the icing on the cake? Some other their goats are over 10 years old, and when they can no longer give milk, they don’t slaughter them. They let them live out their days on the farm. That is *astounding* for dairy practice, because they are willing to care for animals that are no longer producing milk, aka $. They sell yogurt, goat cheese, and goat milk. Their creamery is all organic, and they feed the goats a diet of 70% organic hay, but they do sometimes have to supplement with grain. I was super, super impressed with them. They sell the yogurt and cheese in Sprouts and Whole Foods for sure, other stores near you may carry it. I have never, in all my research, come across a more humane dairy operation.
Wee Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 11:34 am
I think I’ve actually had Red Hill Farms yogurt from Whole Foods! I’ll have to check back again. We don’t get to Whole Foods often but I’m going to check the next time we’re nearby. I’d love it if at least some of our dairy were humanely produced. Thanks so much!
Cait Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 9:58 pm
Yogurt is REALLY easy to make, especially if you have a crockpot. I buy raw milk from a local producer and make yogurt weekly. Google crockpot yogurt. It’s really simple and it makes delicious yogurt. I strain mine though cheese cloth so that it’s thick, like greek yogurt.
If you can find a reputable source for milk, making your own yogurt is a great choice.
Very interesting post, Jenna! Thanks for sharing! My husband and I are moving more and more into eating only meat that he has hunted. This naturally means we eat more vegetable and less animal. Also, since he is good at what he does it is more humane and dignified.
Sophia Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 10:59 am
I am totally in the minority amongst most vegans/vegetarians with this opinion, but I have no qualms with hunting, and of all the ways of getting meat, hunting and fishing are the absolute top of the list. The animals/fish were living out their days free, doing whatever they wanted, no fences or antibiotics, and then, when a skilled hunter comes along, the animal is killed before it even knows what happens. I really appreciate hunters that have a respect for animals and the environment, my family has lots of them!
Evelyn Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 2:14 pm
I’m not a vegetarian or vegan but I agree with you… the animal was living the life nature intended. I don’t think demise to a hunter is unnatural.
I love this post so much! I agree with every.last.word.
I will pick up Eating Animals as soon as I get my library card renewed!
I’d also like to add that I hope to move to a new house in the next few years where I can have a giant garden, chickens, a goat, and eventually a milking cow. That’s THE best way to get your food, from your own backyard!
Amanda Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 3:27 pm
I agree 100%
This post is so so so timely for me!
why?
1)I need a new book to read, and I LOVE “food politics/ethics/michael pollan type books.”
2)I’ve recently been considering a return to vegetarianism-I was veggie for two years in college.
I still have the a disconnect between reading this books and products like cheese and chicken. I already buy humanely slaughtered and local beef, but I still continue to pick up the convenient package of pre-frozen chicken breasts!
36Read In Defense of Food, now in the middle of Real Food by Nina Planck…I think Eating Animals is next on my list!!
37I grew up on a dairy farm and I didn’t realize calves were taken away from their mother’s so quickly and sent away. interesting. I guess i always base everything off of our farm…which probably isn’t true elsewhere. we let the babies stay with their moms for a few days and then when they were taken away they still got their mother’s milk for a long time after. They tagged all of the animals so when the momma would come through the barn they put her milk in a special container and we would get to bottle feed the babies, we loved to do that!! I have a hard time processing a lot of this stuff because i just remember how we did things, and we were totally humane on our farm, but we did give antibiotic when sick and yadda yadda yadda so we weren’t ever organic or anything but I think we definitely treated them well. and none of our calves were veal, they all grew up! although, we did dehorn…but they never really made any noise…so i guess i just assumed it didn’t really hurt that bad.
Jenna Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 11:57 am
My grandparents have a “conventional” dairy, and I don’t remember thinking as a child that the cows on their dairy seemed like were suffering in any way. I liked to feed them and let their scratchy tongues like my hand. I am quick to condemn CAFOs but my grandparents aren’t big like that. They are good people and they really care about their animals, you know?
So I feel a little bit torn.
tiffany Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 12:04 pm
I guess that is a good way to put it…I feel a bit torn about it too.
Sophia Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 1:04 pm
I can totally understand this perspective, because growing up my grandparents had chickens and sheep. They were treated like pets, loved and well taken care of. I can imagine that growing up in an awesome dairy, like you did, would make it hard to conceptualize how awful some dairies can be.
You do know that the requirements for chicken to be “free range” means that they get 5 minutes of outside roaming per day.
Also grass-fed beef is better for you. If they are not grass-fed they are beefed up quickly which leads to more fat. Grass-fed are leaner because they grow at the rate that a cow is supposed to grow.
Sophia Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 1:05 pm
That’s true about the “free range” issue, which is why it is preferable to be able to buy eggs from farmers whom you can question. There was lots of talk on another post about how terms like “free range” and “cage free” can be used to mislead the consumer.
schmei Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 8:52 pm
Shaylene’s right. Interestingly, another site I read just posted something about the health benefits of grass-fed beef today: http://www.getfitslowly.com/2010/08/04/some-thoughts-on-grass-fed-beef-and-dairy-products/
Thanks for this post. I’m so happy to see this movement gaining momentum. I agree with you in regards to religion and meat. I firmly believe God gave us dominion over our environment and we need to respect what’s been given to us and treat it kindly. We aren’t doing so well with that. are we? But, by making humane decisions we honor God’s creation.
Going to add this book to my list, although, like Kristin, it’s likely to turn me back around to being a full-blown vegetarian.
40I don’t think I will ever be able to give up meat (I’m actually on my way out to a steak lunch for work) and to be honest have always thought that vegetarians and vegans were stupid. Sorry, but that is the truth. I grew up around animals and while I don’t think they should be tortured to death, I’ve never felt like upset at the thought of sending a cow off to slaughter. That being said, I can certainly respect your thoughts on this. I have to say, I am actually intrigued by a lot of points you make and really respect your choice to be more thoughtful about what you eat and where it came from. I have to say while I doubt anyone could convince me to give up meat all together, I do think I could be convinced to make some of the changes you are making.
Cristin Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 12:41 pm
Hi Hayley,
I think a mistake that folks make about vegans or vegetarians is that they are all fanatics or judgemental of carnivores. Unfortunately, I think its a case of a few loud vegetarians acquiring a reputation for everyone. Maybe that’s where your dislike of vegetarians comes from?
As for being upset about the slaughter of a cow, I’m not sure that’s necessarily the only reason why people choose to eliminate meat from their diets. Other reasons include:
- the large quantities of hormones that we ingest through eating meat (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/12/opinion/12kristof.html
- the environmental impact of the waste that pigs/cows/chickens generate (Foer does an amazing job of describing this)
- the caloric quantity of vegetarian feed consumed by animals is significantly higher than the caloric output of cows/pigs/chickens
- the slaughter process isn’t just killing the cow and moving on - Foer (and Singer, etc) describe the abuse suffered by the animals before they die, which is really horrific.
I don’t know that I’ll ever give up meat altogether, but I do seek out horomone-free meat and prefer to find a meat source from a kosher-certified (I’m Catholic though!) slaughterhouse.
Either way, its awesome that you would even consider learning more about the topic. I don’t think most people have any idea of the environmental or health impacts of the factory farming system; if we did, we would demand higher standards of them.
Hayley Marie Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 3:00 pm
I can’t argue with you about feeling that vegans and/or vegetarians are judgmental. I still remember going out to eat with a friend who is vegan who looked at me while I was eating my burger and had this shocked look on her face. All she said was “How could you eat THAT! That is someone’s child!” To me, that is a bit extreme. I also remember in a class discussion on animal testing when a a girl stated that if there was a puppy and a child in the middle of the road and a car was coming, that she honestly could not say which she would choose to save. Again, this seems amazing to me. I love animals, honestly I do. I raised bottle fed lambs and goats that were rejected by their mothers and was a certified wildlife rehab specialist in CA. I love our pets and I think they are akin to family BUT I think putting them on the same level as say, my little brother, is too much. I may have woken up for 3AM feedings with my sheep, but that doesn’t make them a human and to me, comparing them to humans makes it hard for me to really take someone seriously. (I’m not saying you make this point, I’m saying that has been how I’ve perceived SOME vegetarians acting). I certainly don’t dislike vegetarians, but I can’t exactly claim I’m a fan of the idea of BEING vegetarian. I think they are two different things. I think your point about hormones and environmental impact are interesting and have had lengthy discussions with my friends about such topics. I think, like you said, there are many different reasons to go meatless in your life.
That being said, there are some I agree with and some that I don’t. I also think there are ways to live your life as a someone who eats meat while still caring about what food you digest and how animals are treated.
I don’t mean to sound judgmental, but I’m just curious, do you take as much effort to find out what is on the veggies you are eating? I just think the idea of knowing so much about the history of your food is intriguing. I grew up with a family that had a garden so I didn’t think much about if a tomato was from outside or the grocery store…
Cristin Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 6:07 pm
Hi again,
I agree that it would be really hard to relate to some of the stories that you shared about vegetarian friends. Unfortunately, its a bummer of a case where someone felt so strongly about the topic that they lost sight of how to communicate. I’ve heard the term “Vegangelist” used for some of those folks!
I am not a vegetarian (not sure if you realized that), but in terms of what’s “on” my vegetables, I suppose I wash everything. In considering the history of my produce, I do seek to avoid greenhouse-grown fruits, for the environmental consequences. Another curveball is the labor management tactics used to grow produce. Here’s an article that talks about unfair labor practices in my homestate, Florida. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/28/AR2009042800835.html
Honestly, there is so much information out there that it is easy to get bogged down when considering what to eat. I think its best to determine which issue affects you enough to want to change it - then research and vote with your dollar on how to change it. It happens that the environmental impacts and health impacts of large-scale meat production resonate with me, so those are the biggest factors in picking my foods.
Hayley Marie Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 7:05 pm
I grew up in CA in a agriculture community and half the time if we were buying fruit or produce, it was from a stand on the side of the road where you could see them planting and picking crops (especially strawberries… YUM). Anyway, I didn’t think you were a strict v/v but you just sound like you put a lot of thought into where your meat comes from and I was wondering if you were the same with everything you eat. I have to say, the thing that makes me think the most about what I eat is my love for cooking. Maybe that sounds counterintuitive, but I love to cook and my favorite thing to do is spend the day at the farmers market picking out fresh veggies, fruits, and cheeses to experiment with. Maybe this will drive some people on here bonkers, but I buy most of my meat from Costco. Honestly, where I live right now, it is the best option. Plus I’m not making a lot of money so the option of nice cuts of meat that(price per pound)is not a lot of money is tempting. We do have a grocery store nearby that I buy a lot of fruit and veggies from since they make an effort to support local farmers. I’m really tempted to stop by tomorrow after work to see if they have similar options for meat. I’m not saying I’m giving up on my Costco meat just yet… but I think supplementing my purchases could be an option.
Sophia Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 1:15 pm
Hayley-
I’m curious, what has been your experience with vegans/vegetarians? Did you encounter a judgmental pushy one? I can say that as a vegan I have been turned off by the tactics of other vegans, especially those who expect “perfection” from one another. As Cristin said, it’s not just about being upset that an animal is killed for food. It’s about an entire host of questionable practices that go in to raising animals for food. For many vegetarians/vegans, after we learn about such things it becomes hard to continue eating meat. I thought about how I would feel about the same things being done to my cat or dog, and I realized that, for me, it didn’t make sense to care for and protect my cat, but eat meat that came from mistreated animals. My partner calls it “the puppy test”. If it’s offensive to be done to a puppy, it seems unfair to do it to a cow or a pig- especially since they’re not that different in terms of emotional/mental intelligence.
I think a lot of times people think vegans/vegetarians are just very emotional people who thinks it’s sad to kill animals, or people who don’t get the way the circle of life works. But for me, logic and reason led me to where I am at this point in my life. Although I have to admit, I hesitate to self identify as a vegan because as Cristin said, there are a few VERY LOUD ones that give the rest of us a bad rap.
Hayley Marie Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 2:50 pm
Sophia,
I grew up in CA and actually have quite a few friends who are vegetarian and a few who are vegan. Some have been VERY vocal about their thoughts on the fact that I still eat and I always end up feeling more defensive than forming a desire to learn more. Like I said, I grew up around animals and hate the idea of them being tortured (I like how you describe the puppy test) but I also feel like there are other ways to handle that or create change than to say “I won’t eat any meat”. One of my friends who was extremely vocal about being a vegan always talked about how she hated to see animals treated that way. It has made me wonder if all vegans see those who eat meat as heartless (my friend certainly makes me feel this way when I have a burger). I also watched as she withered away to nothing after going on such a strict vegan diet and eventually was hospitalized. To me, it just seems too extreme. I also feel like (and perhaps I’m totally mistaken) that it is a bit like say “the meat industry is corrupt and there is nothing to do about it so I’m just walking away”. To me, that isn’t accomplishing anything because there will always be a market for meat. I think that is why I appreciate the attitude Jenna has taken.
Sophia Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 5:55 pm
Hayley-
Uggh, what awful experiences to have! It would never occur to me to be so judgmental over dinner like your friend was at the restaurant.
I also think that some animal rights activists go too far in equalizing humans and animals. As you said, one can love, respect, and care for animals, but it’s *NOT* the same as a person. I’ve also often heard vegans talk about “not knowing which to save”, be it a baby or a puppy, and frankly that is shocking to me. I guess, just from an evolutionary standpoint even, without any logic or emotion to it, it makes sense to save “your own”. And then of course, to me, logically and emotionally it makes further sense to save a human over an animal.
I can see the point you’re making about leaving the system seeming like giving up, but I think it’s very important to make a distinction between vegans/vegetarians whose goal is to make everyone a vegan/vegetarian, and those whose goal is to simply make others aware. My own experience, as a non-judgmental, non confrontational veg and then vegan has been that so, so, so many of my friends are now cutting back on meat and buying it humanely as a result of my approach to eating. As Jenna quoted me, if I cared more about meat to expend the energy of seeking out humane meat, I would, but for me I just don’t like most of it, and honestly I’m personally uncomfortable with eating it at this point in my life- as I’ve said before on here though, this time next year I may be happily eating a grass fed steak! I see my opting out of the system as more of a boycott, and then I see my non-judgmental way of sharing eating ethics with others as a way to get my meat eating friends to help change the system with me. Does that make sense? In addition, I would say that most of the vegans/vegetarians I knew were pretty passionate about changing the industry to more humane standards. Many worked with lobbying campaigns to pass laws, they petitioned their senator, and like me they educated their meat eating friends and family on where to get humanely raised meat.
I really have to say again how frustrating it is that people treated you that way.
Hayley Marie Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 6:54 pm
I think a boycott is a fitting description. However,I guess I have just never thought about that since most of the vegans/vegetarians I know have no intention of ever going back to eating meat, even if the process is changed. Then again, most of them are v/v because they feel it is hurting the animal and they don’t want to do that. As Jenna and TH point out below, Mormon scripture touches on eating meat and talks about doing so sparingly. While I think eating meat “sparingly” can mean different things to different people (my uncle likes some sort of red meat once every day or so - I average about once a week for red meat) I think it is an idea I try to live by. I don’t want the animals I eat to have suffered beyond a reasonable amount (let’s face it, to get to my plate they have to be killed at some point and I think that involves some suffering no matter how humanely you do it) but right now, that just isn’t something I spend a lot of time thinking about or looking into. Basically to get back to my main point, I think that I’ve never seen it as a boycott because my friends who are v/v normally are ones because they think it is bad to kill animals for our *guilty* pleasure. However, even those who are trying to change the system (we had a group at our school who worked on these issues) turned their nose up at meat which came from animals that had lived a *good* life.
Ultimately, I believe we have stewardship over animals and one of the purposes that they exist is for our nourishment - both through their meat and by-products. I don’t mean to be blunt or offensive to anyone, but that is my belief.
Would you be willing to eat meat from cattle that had been humanely raised and slaughtered? I’m not trying to be confrontational, I am honestly curious.
Sophia Reply:
August 6th, 2010 at 12:22 pm
At this point, I wouldn’t eat meat from a humanely raised and slaughtered animal, although that might change in the future. I personally don’t think meat is necessary, for me, in a first world with a vast array of choices to be healthy, and I can’t justify eating it- and honestly I can’t justify spending the money on humane meat when I really don’t care for meat that much in the first place, and furthermore I can get local, organic, non-GMO tofu at my coop for a fraction of the cost. It would seem as though I was just buying it to buy it, because I don’t know how to cook it and I don’t like the taste in the end. That being said, if I needed to hunt for food, I would, and when I travel I definitely have “situational” ethics. I mentioned upthread that I am looking into the Peace Corps, and if I’m living in a small village somewhere and meat is offered, I’ll eat it. When I lived in Japan, I ate fish because I was often treated to meals by co-workers and, as Jenna said, if the animal is already dead refusing it is just wasting it. Likewise if I’m WOOFING on an organic farm with well raised animals, and in return for my volunteering the food is not vegan, I’ll eat it. I am very, very different from many vegans/vegetarians in that I approach every situation logically and evaluate it. Not to say vegans/vegetarians are not logical, I more mean that instead of just always adhering to an ideology I try and make the best choice as they come up.
My thinking on the matter is that there are times and seasons for needing meat, and there are places in the world where diets must be meat heavy due to climate- again, I do not follow the typical vegetarian in desiring everyone to give up meat, I don’t think it’s possible, which is precisely why I just ask my meat eating friends/family to eat “happy meat”. I do not think it is “immoral” to eat meat, however, I don’t see myself in any of those necessary conditions in my current living situation, so I’d rather avoid eating animals.
Lastly, I really do think that meat and animal products should be eaten *very* sparingly anyway. Most hunter gatherers had a 17-25% success rate at hunting. That’s one in four if you’re giving them the best odds. So, you got meat every four days, after running your butt off to get it, and it was lean, grassfed, antibiotic free meat. In the interim, you weren’t eating cheese sticks and omelets and drinking milk, you were eating a primarily plant based diet with maybe some bugs thrown in(I’m talking pre-agriculture). I’ve studied a lot on nutrition, and at this point in my life I think a plant based diet, with at most about 10% of the calories coming from animal sources, is the healthiest way to eat. So, selfishly, my primary reason for eating the way I do is my own personal health, and after that are the environmental and animal concerns. My acne is gone, my stomach problems are gone, I can maintain my weight better, I have more energy, etc. The last time I ate meat- grilled chicken- I felt like a rock was lodged in my stomach. This is the right diet for me right now, for a number of reasons. On the flip side, my cousin is also the healthiest she’s ever been, and she follows a Paleo diet.
Sorry so long! I’m really enjoying our conversation
Hayley Marie Reply:
August 6th, 2010 at 1:00 pm
I think that the idea of adapting to your environment is fitting. My brother is currently serving a mission in Argentina. Growing up he was an EXTREMELY picky eater but over the last year and a half, he has had to change his habits. Many of the families that have the missionaries over for dinner are extremely poor but go all out when they have the missionaries in their home. Even though some of the things my brother has been offered are WELL outside his range (iguana was one of the oddest) he has eaten each meal. If he were to refuse, it would come across as incredibly insulting and rude to the host family. Personally, I know that if I accidentally prepared a dish with meat in it for someone I didn’t realize was v/v I would feel worried I’d be insensitive or that I might come across as not respecting their choice. I always tend to check about such parameters if I don’t know the people very well, but not all hosts have that chance (or the resources). Like Jenna, I’m LDS and I think growing up following the Word of Wisdom has made me sensitive to other individual’s dietary choices. (Although I have to say when I was younger I did tease my cousin and threaten to put chicken stock in her mashed potatoes.) I know that many of my non-LDS friends have viewed my choice to abstain from alcohol and other products with the same attitude I’ve often viewed the choice to abstain from meat and animal products. I think that learning to state your reasoning behind your choices in a logical way is a great lesson to learn (although it isn’t easy) and that often helps a lot more in the long term than letting emotions get heated.
I think your point about the way you feel after eating a v/v diet is an important one. I know that I feel my personal best when I try to maintain a balanced diet (which for me includes meat). My work is currently doing a health/wellness challenge and part of that includes eating 5 servings of fruits/vegetables a day. I was talking with a co-worker about the challenge and we both talked about how, while we eat a good amount of veggies and fruits in proportion to our diet, we aren’t getting the 5 servings we should. The reason (for both of us) is that we love to cook. I hate buying prepackaged food (although as a college student I often did for ease) and love to cook. When I cook I love to use fresh, rich ingredients and put a lot of time into my cooking. This means that when I cook, it is actually pretty healthy and I feel great. The downside is that when I don’t cook, I don’t really eat. I’ll down a glass of water to keep me from feeling too hungry and nibble on a carrot or two but that is it until I get some time to cook. I think for me, it is more about the balance.
I’m not switching sides, but do you have any cookbooks or sites you would suggest for recipes that follow v/v standards? I feel like the only ones I see have either been for salads (which are yummy but I like the cooking aspect that is missing from preparing a salad) or include lots of elaborate ingredients that just aren’t available in UT. I admit, I had to look up what a Paleo diet is. How did your cousin come up with that choice? Is your family the type that is into such diets?
Sophia Reply:
August 6th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
I’m picturing someone offering me iguana now, lol- I might like it though, I *did* love fried rattlesnake growing up
My cousin came across the Paleo diet because she started doing Crossfit, and it is the official recommended diet of the organization. In general though my family are pretty normal eaters. I couldn’t live without beans and grains though- I like spicy black beans and steel cut oats waaaaay too much!
A great website for recipes is Vegetarian Times. They often have really involved, interesting recipes, and they usually have articles on entire meals, from appetizers to desserts, that follow a culinary theme, and that’s fun for dinner parties. As far as cookbooks, “Veganomicon” is *very* much a “cook a complex awesome meal!” book. I really like it for all the reasons you mentioned- it’s not just “let’s make a salad” recipes. There is an entire section on main meals, and one pot meals and casseroles that are really hearty and good. I love to cook as well, and if you want to check out my blog - veganondaysthatendiny.blogspot.com- you can see the kinds of things I cook and eat. OH, and Epicurious.com has a great search feature because the recipes are tagged. You can just type in “vegetarian” and scads of recipes pop up.
It’s funny you should mention how one’s personal abstention from certain things makes one more sensitive to others’ abstention- that’s precisely why I don’t take the “go vegan or go home!” tack, it’s so judgmental and I really don’t like coming across judgmental. Because I’ve been pestered for my lifestyle choices- I don’t drink, don’t smoke, don’t eat meat-I *loathe* to pester/judge others for theirs.
Jenna Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 6:19 pm
I was talking to TH about this thread, and he made a few good points. There are some scriptures to consider when thinking about eating meat and how we eat it:
D&C 49:21
21 And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.
This version to me, says that the system we have that overproduces meat (we throw away an incredible amount of meat in this country) is faulty and something we should be looking into fixing. We should value the lives of the animals we kill and use them as judiciously as possible.
D&C 89: 14
All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;
I think that this verse speaks to what you were saying about puppies. You were repulsed that someone would have a hard time choosing between a child and a puppy, because you don’t think animals should be placed on the same “level” as humans, and I agree. In fact, I think that this verse is saying that we can eat any animal we want. We just don’t eat dogs, cats, and horses in the US because it’s a social taboo. Foer actually spends one of the first chapters of his book talking about the consumption of dogs in different places around the world.
D&C 49: 18
And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;
This doesn’t mean that people who advocate for vegetarianism or veganism are bad or of the devil, but I do think that this is God saying that vegetarianism is not His way. We can kill and eat animals without a guilty conscience.
Joseph Fielding Smith said:
While it is ordained that the flesh of animals is for man’s food, yet this should be used sparingly. The wording of this revelation is perfectly clear in relation to this subject, but we do not always heed it.
This is from the Mormon Wiki:
Vegetarianism is not forbidden, nor is it admonished, in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The church teaches that animals are given to man to use in providing food and clothing, but that such use should, like many things, not be excessive.
In Section 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants the lord says meat is to be used sparingly. Church members are counseled to not to waste flesh when they hunt (however the decision to hunt or fish is a private one). Members are also free to choose vegetarian diets if they wish, however, vegetarianism is not specifically counseled and is not understood to be scripturally mandated, and teaching otherwise is an apostate practice.
Paul, in a letter to Timothy, describing future apostate, spoke of how there would be those “commanding to abstain from meats” (1 Timothy 4:3). Section 49 of the Doctrine and Covenants says that those that preach abstinence from meat are not ordained of God and that he has ordained the animals for the use of man for food and for clothing.
However, while animals are provided for man’s use, it is not understood that we are commanded to use them.
The church owns many animal ranches and animal welfare operations. In addition, many leaders have worked extensively in the raising, slaughtering, and marketing of animal products. For example, Joseph B. Wirthlin of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles ran a family meat purveying and grocery business.
Though we should treat animals kindly the lord provided meat for us to use with thanksgiving and the animals give us food in abundance.
—
Jenna again
I also think we will all be vegetarians during the Millenium, right? So I’m not sure I would classify it as a “stupid” way to live, but the scriptural evidence we have as Church members shows that we shouldn’t be condemned for eating meat. The way that meat is raised and slaughtered has changed drastically within the last 50 years though, and the revelations we currently have don’t cover those changes IMO. That’s why we as consumers need to make changes that will help make the system more humane (and along the lines of what God would want for his creatures)
Sorry this was such a novel!
Hayley Marie Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 6:41 pm
I think you and TH have made several good points. I just reread my original comment and probably should have been a little more clear about what exactly I thought was “stupid”. I guess I have a hard time separating the strong opinions of some vegetarians and vegans I know from the actual idea itself. I just think that I have always looked at it that animals are there for our use. However, as some of the scriptures stated above, that doesn’t mean we can do whatever we want. We have stewardship over them but that comes with responsibility as well. I hope I haven’t come across as being confrontational or completely anti-vegetarian. For me, I could never make that choice (at least with my current mindset) but I *can* respect those who have made that choice when the present their views in the way some have on this blog today. I do believe it is a personal choice and one that shouldn’t be thrust upon others. It has always surprised me when people have read the above scriptures and are ADIMENT that this means we should be vegetarians. I simply do not read them that way. I think that, like you and TH pointed out, it means we should treat animals with respect and always give gratitude to God for what we have been given. I wholeheartedly agree that too much is wasted in this country. My grandmother grew up in England and is aghast at the large portions of food that dished up at restaurants and then left to go to waste. It is a shame really to see any food go to waste, but when an animals life is wasted like that, it it even more disheartening.
I am really thankful for those who, like you can present their opinion without making those who have different views feel like they are dammed to hell - aka what my Sunday school teacher told me when I said I had a hot dog at the WARD party
I think that is why I appreciate this post so much. I don’t think I have ever had a conversation about this topic that hasn’t gotten quite heated and it has left a bad taste in my mouth regarding the subject. After reading my initial post, I’m glad no one called me out on the “stupid” thing. I think that sometimes ideas are taken to extreme (aka comparing humans to animals and stating they are equal) and that has tainted my view. I certainly didn’t meant (and DON’T believe) that those who *are* vegetarian or vegan are stupid.
Sophia Reply:
August 6th, 2010 at 12:26 pm
Just a shout out that as a vegetarian/vegan I wasn’t offended by what you said, and after you talked about your experiences I think I would have said those people acted in less-than-intelligent ways as well
And I agree it’s nice to be able to talk about things civilly 
I’m a long time reader of your blog but this is my first time commenting. I am an Animal Sciences university student, grew up on a farm, and raised animals for the fair. I understand why many people feel so strongly about knowing where their food comes from. I think what many people don’t know though is that the treatment that happens on “bad factory farms” - mistreating the animals, poking and prodding unnecessarily, leaving them to suffer - is not the industry standard. People in my industry generally work very hard to the absolute best that we can to regarding treatment of animals. Like in any other line of work, the public always seems to hear about the bad companies (or in this case farms) rather than the good. The videos that are posted online and the stories that you hear are not that common at all, even if it may seem like it. People that I work with (currently I am working in the swine industry) care deeply about the animals and the treatment of them. We spend long hours with the animals caring for them and providing them with the proper treatment when they are sick. No, the living conditions for them may not be ideal - I will be the first to admit that. However, when we are expected to produce large amounts of food at a low cost that the world can afford then raising them in a totally natural way is not always possible. I simply wanted to post on here to defend myself and the others in my industry. Just because there are a few “bad eggs” out there making a rotten reputation for all of us does not mean that we are all the same. It is hurtful when all large scale farms are grouped together under this category. I think you would find what I have shared to be true in most cases if the time was taken to look into it, rather than just taking these authors at their word that all of these farms are the same.
Cristin Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 12:45 pm
“However, when we are expected to produce large amounts of food at a low cost that the world can afford then raising them in a totally natural way is not always possible.”
Jamie - your point is TOTALLY understood. The American demand for low cost food has led to lower quality lives for factory farm workers, as well as lower quality lives for the animals. As I’ve written elsewhere, the externalities of these low prices lead to health and environmental impacts elsewhere. I think that if people like Jenna can encourage others to spend a little more on the higher quality meat, demand will grow and suppliers will be forced to raise standards to meet it.
Sophia Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 1:24 pm
Jamie-
I can appreciate this viewpoint, but the concern for me comes from what *is* accepted practice in the industry. Not just the terrible videos that are posted, but the industry standard. For example, I read through the requirements to be Humane Certified, and some of the practices were still not ideal to me personally.
As Cristin said, I understand that the American demand for cheap meat forces the hand of the industry, and I can see how this would be frustrating. For me, that’s why it’s important to seek out local farmers. I believe that not all factory farms abuse their animals, but my personal opinion is that the industry standards are not ideal conditions for animals, and the only real way to know how the meat you are purchasing lived and died is to go directly to the farmer, so you can ask questions.
I really want to reiterate that I do not think people who run and work at large scale operations are bad people with bad intentions. As you said, there are economics and public demand forcing certain things to be the way they are.
Sarah for Real Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 2:57 pm
Jamie-
I believe you’re probably right that it is mostly about a few bad apples.
However, there are other reasons that I personally try to reduce my intake of factory farmed meat. Like Cristin pointed out, some are environmental. I also believe factory meat to be less nutritious.
I agree that is unfortunate that our society demands cheap meat (which must then be produced this way). However, I don’t look at these conventional farmers with sympathy. While I know nothing about the economics or family legacies of factory farming, it is not a job that sits well with my conscience.
Jenna Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 5:54 pm
This reminds me of the conversations I had about birth with people who work in hospitals. There are problems with the system that need to be fixed, unfortunately in talking about these changes it often comes across as demonizing the individual practitioners, which should not be the case. With maternal grandparents who have a large dairy (I have no idea how big it is, but I think it’s a pretty good size) and paternal grandparents who have a large ranch in Oregon I understand that the individual farmers/ranchers are just doing their best to provide what the consumer wants.
Gogo Reply:
August 6th, 2010 at 2:47 pm
Jamie,
The economic pressures you identify make Jenna’s and others’ points about voting with your money as a consumer all the more important. If more people said “I’m willing to pay more for less, but of higher quality and produced within this given set of standards” then shifts could happen even at the corporate farming level.
I don’t think anyone has tried to argue that people who are part of a system that has problems are bad as individuals - that would be simplistic and false. But when the problems are identifiable and curable then we can encourage each other to act on them.
This is a great post! I’ve been trying to be more mindful with the food I eat, but it definitely is very difficult to do. Meat is such a staple in all of my meals, but I understand all the reasons I should cut back (or cut it out entirely). I think I will start with Meatless Monday and see how it goes from there!
43I’m so glad I scrolled down to find Jamie’s comment…there is a lot of good thinking and more conscious eating going on these days, and that can only be a good thing. However, as a midwesterner who has had lots of exposure to farms - including large corporate farms - it is frustrating when the “bad eggs” are held up as the industry standard, when that really couldn’t be farther from the truth. Most people in the livestock industry work insanely long hours, dedicate their life and certainly their lifestyle to this work, create a lot of jobs and provide nourishing food for all of us. Just a shout out to those hard working people in the animal livestock industry (the ones who are doing it right, of course) - I appreciate it. And even though I think I fall on a different side of this argument than you, Jenna - I certainly love the civil, thoughtful discussions you’ve got going!
Cristin Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 3:03 pm
MplsChica,
You are very very right. Its much easier for me as a consumer to point fingers, because I am not “in the trenches” each day with those who work in the livestock industry. We are fortunate that there are folks who are searching for ways to continue their trades ethically.
Increasingly popular media like Food Inc helps illustrate that even some small family farmers with good intentions are forced by the larger conglomerates to meet certain cost standards or institute certain practices in order to stay in business.
The conditions that Jenna describes are the result of a combination of factors and I know you know she wasn’t intending to condemn the entire workforce!
Sarah for Real Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 3:24 pm
Of course Jenna is not suggesting that these hard working families lose their jobs, homes, and livelihood. (And frankly, I don’t think factory meat is especially “nourishing” but that’s beside the point.)
The end goal for those of us who try to avoid factory meat is for a societal shift. This change could potentially allow (force?) all these farms into smaller, organic, humane and local practices.
There IS a market for this kind of meat and it’s growing with each individual who makes choices like Jenna.
I love all the changes you’ve made! I think it’s really great that you are sharing what you are learning and I don’t think you sound judgmental at all, so well done! Although, since I guess I agree with everything you’ve said I’m maybe not the best judge… haha.
I appreciate that your faith was a part of the decision. I think as latter day saints we tend to skip over parts of the word of wisdom that are less dramatic than drugs and alcohol - especially the “meat sparingly” business.
As for eating meat when invited over for dinner somewhere, I have similar trouble. I’m vegetarian so that’s a more easily understood food boundary, but it’s the same concern about not wanting to be rude or inconvenient. So, what I say when someone extends an invite is “That sounds great! I would love to come to dinner/brunch/party. I don’t eat meat though and I wouldn’t want that to be a problem for you.” I feel most comfortable saying it like this because it gives them a chance to kind of do a take-back if it really would be a problem/the event isn’t going to be veg friendly at all. I’m also quick to assure them that I’m perfectly contented to just eat the side dishes - I don’t need my own main course. For you, maybe just change the wording to say that you “generally don’t eat meat” and then eat vegetarian at others’ homes until you know them well enough to have the more complicated conversation about sourcing.
Jenna Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 5:58 pm
So refreshing to hear a fellow member say that they agree! I feel sad that so many of our faith seem to gloss over the statements about meat in Section 89.
Thanks for your tips about how to deal with this with my family and friends.
Gogo Reply:
August 6th, 2010 at 2:35 pm
Totally!
This is probably mentioned above, but I haven’t read the comments yet… One thing that I think it’s important to know is WHAT these animals SHOULD be eating. I see advertised: Vegetarian fed chickens and other similar ads, but really a free-range chicken shouldn’t be vegetarian… it should be eating grass, plants, worms, bugs, etc.
46You really are an inspiration to me. I went to the farmers market today, and was pleasantly surprised. I didn’t ask many questions - I guess I also need to get better at that, but I bought an eggplant, some corn, and a cantaloupe. Along with the zucchini and carrots from my garden. My husband and I don’t eat a lot of meat… I haven’t bought meat in months, and what we have is in the freezer. We are going to focus more on cutting back on the processed foods, and eating more veggies (which doesn’t happen when our garden isn’t active). I’m on my way to the used book store to see if I can find any of the books you’ve mentioned - you’ve definitely peaked my interest.
47It’s a slippery slope you might be a veggie before you know it!! I am sure in Chicago it will be easier because most restaurants shop at the market now. It should say on the menu where it is sourced.
You should read Skinny Bitch too…if you ever think about cutting it off completely
Sophia Reply:
August 4th, 2010 at 5:58 pm
Emmie, I love that you used the term “slippery slope”! That is *exactly* the phrase that my partner and I say all the time about how we found ourselves eating vegan. We always say “man, it’s a slipper slope… one day you give up meat for a month for a lark, and a few years later you’re a vegan!”. Ha. Love it.
I have been loving these food posts. After hearing you talk about “In Defense of Food” several times, I am currently reading it from the library and am going to force my (non-reading) husband to read as well to get him on the bandwagon. I’m also on hold to get Food, Inc. from the library for us to watch.
I’ve always wanted to eat/cook/bake more consciously when we have kids, but I think starting now is the way to go. I think that many of our health issues will be fixed by eating more “real”- chronic headaches, overweight, etc.
49I think the reason gluttony was made a sin was to avoid things like factory farms. For example, yes God put animals on the Earth partly because he wanted them to be consumed/nourish us/each other.
But think about the work it used to take to have to eat an animal. There was a hunt, sometimes for days, it required physical and mental energy & time. People had to be patient, and their reward was a “steak dinner”. In between hunts, they survived on plants and fruits.
Now… it’s not what it should be. It has become a nightmare. If we were following natural order, it wouldn’t be nearly as cruel to consume meat.
Good points, Jenna.
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