29 Sep
Debt & Dumb Luck
On Formspring this week things evolved into.., well I’m not even sure what it was. A bit of a joke actually, since all of the information I was accused of withholding can be found right here on the blog (I kept forgetting to link to previous posts so I guess I didn’t do all I could to end the discussion).
Source
If you missed it previously I detailed how we created a budget and keep track of our spending in this post. Based on that post you know that I’m really bad with money (or I was?), and that TH is the one who really drives our budgeting. That is his strength and I have some others. Good strengths, I promise.
When we knew that University of Chicago was official I wrote a post about the business school offer, which is what will allow us to make it through school without any debt. Whether they haven’t read that post, or didn’t understand it, I’m getting a lot of flack for talking about being debt free when we have “help”.
Which led to this question and my answer:
sigh, i just commented on the snarky debt thing, and i found a better way to say what i meant- if you want to talk about how you live debt free, you should be open about how you got there (help, outisde source,etc.). otherwise it just sounds braggy.
Stop eating out, stop going to movies, stop paying for cable, get rid of your car and take the bus, buy all of your clothes secondhand, don’t buy a house, downgrade your cell phone to the cheapest model and cut texting/data out of your plan, don’t go on vacation, turn down nights out with friends, don’t pay for a babysitter, shop with coupons, stop buying toys for your children, move to a smaller apartment/house, sell unnecessary belongings on Craigslist or ebay, buy your furniture/decor at a thrift store…
separate your needs from your wants.
I resent anyone who implies that we have this because of luck or handouts. TH works hard to provide the lifestyle we have.
I think the subject of entitlement is going to come up in the comments because unfortunately, I am a blessed girl and always have been, which seems to mean to some that I have no right to talk about being debt free (because unless you worked your way up from the slums with NO HELP AT ALL, your debt free life doesn’t mean anything to some).
My dad took on loads of debt to start a farm with absolutely no help at all, worked days/nights/weekends for much of my childhood to make it profitable, started his own business, built it up into something successful, and has continued to devote massive amounts of time to simultaneously running a business and a farm, making it possible for my parents to pay for my time at BYU. My parents still live in two doublewide trailers hooked together instead of buying or building a house, setting a stellar example for my sister and I when it comes to what is really necessary in life.
That Husband on the other hand, was a “pulled himself up by his bootstraps” type of guy. He chose to leave Poland to go to BYU, and worked to pay his way through school. He received a scholarship, but had to earn a 4.0 GPA through most of school in order to keep it. After school he started working for Company X (unmistakably one of the top three consulting firms in the entire world), and earned stellar reviews on his work performance that enabled him to receive the business school offer. Oh wait, AND he had to get into one of the top 10 MBA programs in the world to receive said offer.
I am the daughter of a self-made man, married to a Polish guy who is on the brink of becoming a self-made man himself.
There are people out there who have hard knocks, who do everything they can but still can’t make ends meet, but I doubt many of them are reading this blog.
Why? Because when life is really that hard for you, you don’t have the internet at home because that’s not a necessity. You don’t work cushy office jobs that allow you to spend time reading blogs like That Wife. You work out in the fields, you steam clothes at the dry cleaners, you count buttons at the button factory. I’m not knocking those jobs, I have immense respect for the hard working people out there who put so much of themselves into making a living. I’m trying to say that if you come back to That Wife each and every day, you likely aren’t one of those people who’ve cut everything out of their life except the basic necessities. If they have the time to read and attack me on my Formspring page, they probably have the time to figure out how to be debt free.
The list I pasted above details the secret to living debt free. Separate the wants from the needs, and after you’ve paid for all of the needs you know how much you have left for your wants. We (That Husband and I), believe there is only one main kind of debt that falls under the umbrella of necessity for everyone, and that’s educational debt. Business ventures are another notable exception to the no-debt policy, although I don’t think that it’s necessary for everyone starting a business to take on debt to do so. I sometimes talk about my need to “pay of Jenna Cole debt”, and when I do so I’m speaking of the money I owe back to our savings account, as none of the investments we’ve made have been with borrowed money.
A house? That is NEVER a need. It’s a want, no questions asked. You do not have to own a home. Ownership as a necessity is an American idea, TH says that in Poland owning a home is incredibly rare. Christiana recently wrote six reasons why she rents instead of owns, and I strongly agree with all of them. If you can’t ever imagine seeing how renting could be better than owning, try using this tool from the New York Times to calculate your situation and other hypothetical circumstances*.
Yesterday you saw the amount we spent on food for 4 weeks. Our goal is to spend less than $350/month on both groceries and eating out. We’ve chosen not to upgrade from the free cable that came with our apartment. I try to buy used items and clothing for T1. These and several other areas are places where we are striving to cut back during our time at UofC so that we can leave debt free. Are we living the “student lifestyle”? Certainly not. We have different circumstances, due to the hard work (and future commitment to Company X) of That Husband.
I maintain that we aren’t debt free because of dumb luck. Living debt free isn’t about the amount of money you have, it’s the amount of money you spend.
*I do think that in some situations it is better to rent than to buy. I disagree with the idea that buying over renting is either always better or absolutely necessary.
I'm a farm-raised almost-crunchy stroller-pushing picture-taking lifestyle-blog-writing gastronomy-obsessed divine-seeking thrift-store-combing cheese-inhaling pavement-pounding laughter-sprinkling lover of individuality and taking chances.
I am constantly thinking this, and it applies to every thing. Perspective is so important.
What is big to you may not seem big to me. What is important to me may not seem important to you. Just because I think something I did is good does not mean whatever you did is NOT good. Our society is so keen on comparing people, that they don’t pause to acknowledge all success - only big success.
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Jessica @ One Shiny Star Reply:
September 29th, 2010 at 10:48 pm
I’m a space cadet: I am exceptionally blessed. Money is something that stresses me to no end. It was always a problem growing up, and money issues often feel like rain at a wedding to me. Thankfully, right now, money is not my challenge. But I have other places where I struggle, and even suffer. Which takes me back to my point - just because my struggles are not your struggles does not mean they are lesser.
Have I told you about my favorite budgeting tool? It is called Mint.com - and it is really amazing, and free. I don’t want to plug, but I did write a quick and easy review about how I use it.
http://oneshinystar.com/?p=175
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Hillary Bost Reply:
October 5th, 2010 at 10:40 am
I believe the same thing and have said that for years. I don’t think it is right how judgmental people are these days. How quick we as a whole can be to put a label on someone. Its not right.
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Jessica @ One Shiny Star Reply:
October 5th, 2010 at 12:51 pm
I kind of always assume every one is having a rough/bad day until they tell me other wise. That way, if some one cuts me off, or gets mad at me - I don’t take it personally. If I were in Jenna’s situation I might assume that people who speak negatively about my financial well being are having problems with their financial well being - and it is difficult to talk about things like money if every one is on a different page. Oh well. The world goes on.
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“Debt free isn’t about the amount of money you have, it’s the amount of money you spend”.
BRAVO. I agree fully.
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Lisa Reply:
September 29th, 2010 at 10:58 pm
I agree-this is the best line of the post. True, you may not be able to have everything you’ve ever dreamed of and live debt free, but everyone can live debt free if it is their priority, and I think most people (reading your blog) will find that it’s actually not that hard once you change your mindset. Our society has this idea of entitlement that it’s our right to have everything we desire in life, and it’s the cause of way too much debt. Great post!
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Katy Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 12:56 am
This is what I always have to tell my family when they claim that our financial “good fortune” is because of the perks the military affords us. Nope, sorry. Lots of military folk have lots of financial problems even with the same perks alloted them. It wouldn’t matter if money and free things fell from the sky, some in my family would STILL struggle with money because they don’t know how to manage it well.
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Evelyn Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 9:53 am
I completely agree with you. Being a military brat myself and living (basically) my whole life right next to the largest military base in the country I have seen how a lot of military service members live, and debt-free is not a common adjective.
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Katy Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:02 am
Oooh, what is the largest military base? You’ve got my mind racing to guess…is it an army base? We are Air Force.
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Evelyn Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:30 pm
So, maybe it’s not the largest military base, I was using a generic term and may have made an incorrect claim… but it’s the largest naval base in the world [I did verify that, it's not just an Evelyn-claim.
Norfolk Naval Base].
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Great post, Jenna!
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3Of course it’s not dumb luck - clearly TH works hard in his professional career and you work hard as a couple. You’re right that most TW readers have some measure of comfort or privilege, which enables their engagement with your blog. Does that mean that each reader is in a situation that necessary means he/she has the circumstances that ensure a debt-free life? No. I should preface this by saying that I don’t have debt and fully embrace the privileges that I have (namely class privilege). But illness and the financial crisis are just two of the many possible situations in which it might not be so easy to just spend less than you make. And while no, it’s not dumb luck that you two can maintain the life you want (or that I can - I’m intentionally including myself so you understand this is something I think about myself, and it’s not an attack on you) it’s important to accept the privileges that enable that lifestyle. You do this to an extent because you say that you are blessed. I don’t think this is a matter of entitlement because no one should be made to feel bad for what they have. However, luck, privilege, whatever you want to call it, are real things. If you’re willing to say, “This is what we have and we have it because of the work we do AND I acknowledge that some measure of white privilege and class privilege factor in” (there is a monetary value to whiteness in the U.S.) then I think you would maybe get less criticism. Not from the trolls, who are just always going to be jerks, but from those of us who wish to engage with you in a spirit of friendliness and honest exchange.
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Mags Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 7:50 am
Illness is certainly something that has a huge financial impact and can create a large amount of debt even for the most budget conscious and hardworking individual. Being out of work, paying for expensive medical treatments and insurance not covering everything means you have to pay out of pocket…grrr, I’m riling myself up! Actually I think a large majority of bankruptcies filed in the US resulted from illness and peoples’ debt from medical treatment that they simply couldn’t afford to pay
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Sophia Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 8:23 am
Mags, you’re right. It’s either the number one or the number two reason people file bankruptcy
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Katy Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:19 am
I hope this doesn’t come across wrong or preachy, but that’s one of many reasons why having an 8-month emergency fund is so very important. We never know what’s around the corner, and heaven forbid the medical problem be something HUGE that blows way past any substantial savings, but doing all we can to have a reserve of all our expenses set aside (for at least 6-8 months) can help in those situations. I think most financial experts even reccommend that even if you have some very low or no interest debt, you should try to build up your savings before working to pay off that no/low interest debt off.
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Mags Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:33 am
I think many people have emergency funds like that, but unfortunately in the case of many illnesses treatment can stretch over months and months or even years. When it comes to the health of your family, especially someone suffering from cancer or a chronic disease the cost of treatment is just not important. People look beyond whether they can afford to pay it and will do whatever it takes. My rant is more at the healthcare system in general! Emergency funds ARE important, but we can never be fully prepare for what life throws our way especially when it comes to the ones we love.
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Mary Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 3:25 pm
Mags, I agree with you whole heartedly. I work in the medical world and sometimes chronic illnesses bankrupt people quicker than anything else. Our little girl had to be admitted to the hospital 3 times and go to the doctor 2 times a week since she was born. Thankfully, our insurance is through the hospital I work at and the co-pays are low. I do know folks, though, that have had to pay thousands for one admission.
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Cécy Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:58 am
Yes but you have to pay off debt to be able to have an emergency saving that covers at least 3-6 months.
Right now my husband and I have a $1000 emergency fund. It wouldn’t cover much if anything bad happened.
And yes we choose to buy a house and we are paying more for it than when we rented, but I don’t regret that decision. We would also be better of if a cop had not ran into my car because he did not respect the stop sign… Things happen.
We do live with some luxuries: TV, Internet and that’s a choice we do make (although I’m planning on cutting of the TV as soon as we can get out of the contract). But paying off debt also depends on the amount of money you make.
The concept is great, but for example in our case I came in with no debt. None whatosever, didn’t even know what a real credit card was.
My husband on the other side had car payments, student loans and credit card debt. So even with the best intention on living debt free an buying right, well we had to deal with his past decisions. While I do not agree with most debt I still had to do with his and we are working on it.
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Megan Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:59 pm
An emergency fund is a good thing. But sometimes the cost of Medical bills are going to be higher than what most people can save up. My sister recently spent three days in the hospital after being admited from the ER. She had a bunch of diagnostic tests ran & recently got the bill. It was a whopping $35,000 before insurance. She’s lucky to have insurance, but with a pre-existing condition she’d be denied for private insurance coverage. Medical debt is in fact the top reason for bankruptcy.
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I think the whole renting vs buying really depends on where you live. Like for us for example, rent and a mortgage was pretty much the same price. Of course there are additional costs in a house, but in the long run it was a better choice for us. If you live in an area where buying a house will make you stress about money and make you house porr then renting is a better option.
It all depends on the situation. Though for us, a house was better. Now and later. (even if we sell)
We are on a debt free plan. (Meaning in 4 years we should be debt free (this doesn’t count a mortgage or car payments) Hopefully we can stick to it. It’s doable. For sure. But I need to be like you Jenna and buy second hand for Mavi. I would save lots of $$$ if I did that. At least my “only buy on sale rule” still stands.
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Nodakademic Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 8:20 am
Agreed regarding the mortgage. Our mortgage is considerably less per month than our rent was. Yes, it’s true that there are other costs (maintenance and other home-related bills), but because of that we probably break even. And when we leave this home we will have equity to toss toward our next one (or money in the bank, if we go back to renting in another city). So it works for us.
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LadyJane Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 9:46 am
Agreed fully. I thought the calculator Jenna included was pretty interesting, and although it will certainly affect some people more than others, keep in mind the “calculator” was prefaced with: “Whether renting is better than buying depends on many factors, particularly how fast prices and rents rise and how long you stay in your home. Compare the costs of buying and renting a home in the calculator below” so I think it’s safe to say buying v. renting should be a debate saved for a strict individual basis (as Jenna noted in her footnote)
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Tyson Pyle Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 1:08 pm
There are a lot of things that factor in the whole “rent vs. own” debate, and I think a big one is that there is more risk that comes with owning a home than there is with renting. If you rent and you lose your job you can move without having any obligations, but if you own and lose your job, then you are stuck with house payments. Sure there are ways out of fulfilling the payments, but it comes with a big cost at times (credit score).
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LadyJane Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 9:15 am
True, but that’s also to say you lose your job and cannot find another one.
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LadyJane Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 9:18 am
Also, it comes back to savings and budget again. “Ideally” you are “supposed to” have a savings fund set aside for any uncertainties, crises, etc. that may occur. Defaulting on a mortgage is one of these circumstances. So again - person to person!
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Basically, unless you budget and STICK to that budget, you spend what you make. So, if you’re not careful, you can be making $100,000 a year and STILL not managing to save up for retirement, etc. At least, that’s what I tell myself when I’m figuring out exactly where this month’s $2,500 is going.
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Hayley Marie Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:23 am
There are so many people in financial trouble where I live because of this! They make 600,000 a year and are in MAJOR debt because they spend it on things they “have to have” !! I have friends who can’t believe that my parents make less than theirs but aren’t in debt (minus a house payment which is incredibly small) and can send 4 of their kids to college.
I love going shopping with my mom cause she will pick something up, admire it, then place it back down and say “I can be perfectly happy without that!” She doesn’t deprive herself of things she needs and sometimes that “need” is a cute black skirt from Nordstroms or a pair of fun shoes. Living within your means doesn’t mean you have to be a martyr. It means knowing what you have, what you can afford, and then sticking to those guidelines.
It also means that sometimes you have to put something down and think a bit more long term
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good for you for standing up for yourself and your family, jenna. people need to get.a.life.
i keep a *very* low profile on my blog about our financial “good luck” because i just can’t deal with people’s ignorant judgments. (oh and — we rent, too! for the same reasons. i love when people will make comments like “i hope you can save up for a house one day!” and i’m all…not the issue?)
i don’t give the details about my husband’s school or work for fear of sounding braggy, but honestly? that sucks. i’m very proud of him, but feel like i need to keep a low profile about him/our lifestyle/purchases, etc.
anywho.
i think you do a great job of staying modest, but honest with what you have and how you guys got it. *kick punch* to anyone who can’t deal.
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7I think part of the Formspring debate came from people’s frustration that what you’re talking about isn’t your whole story. The steps you’re taking to live debt-free are admirable, and of course people can implement them in their own lives and see results. But when you talk about the way you’re able to live, there’s the reminder that you said you also have help that you’re not talking about.
That’s totally fine. Your business completely. But I think it’s valid for your readers to ask if you would be able to live in the manner you do… Debt-free… If it weren’t for this “help”.
I think just admitting, “We’ve worked hard to get here, but we’re also blessed/lucky to have help that most people don’t” would chill alot of the haters. That doesn’t take away from your debt-free ideas, but it does sound a bit more honest and a bit less self-congratulatory.
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Jenna Reply:
September 29th, 2010 at 11:07 pm
This is what annoys me (and this isn’t necessarily directed to you).
When people say “help” they seem to imply “handout”. Like we didn’t earn it.
It’s like telling someone they are “lucky” because they are a doctor. No one sails through becoming a doctor. You put your time in and work hard, and earn what you get.
It’s not free help. It’s a business offer. We’ll chip in to pay for your business school if you work for us for two more years paying that off. TH could go with another firm after b-school, likely making a LOT more money, but he chose to have school paid for instead.
We have the help because we earned it. Period. It’s not some magical shower of love and kindness showered down from some unknowable unreachable source.
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Turtle Reply:
September 29th, 2010 at 11:28 pm
No. They don’t necessarily mean “handout”- they mean starting from a different place than other people-a better place. They might mean being born to a family with a certain educational level, living in a certain school district or in a country, home or neighborhood that isn’t violent, being born without physical or mental handicaps, being born without the burden of systematic racism, being encouraged by a family/neighborhood/educational system that made you believe you could achieve certain goals, being allowed to immigrate/relocate so you could reach those goals, etc. etc. etc.
Living debt-free is great, you’re not the only ones who have that privilege, recognizing it as stemming from a certain kind of privilege does not take away from the work that it takes to maintain it.
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Turtle Reply:
September 29th, 2010 at 11:40 pm
I think I should clarify that my husband and I also live without debt and follow nearly all of the helpful tips/advice/strategies you mention here. My parents are immigrants- only one out of our 4 parents has a college degree. My husband often works in excess of 80 hours a week. Nevertheless, we would not in anyway be offended if someone pointed out to us all the help that we had on the way. So much help. So much luck. So grateful.
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Sophia Reply:
September 29th, 2010 at 11:35 pm
I tend to think it’s the opposite problem- when I say “help”, I absolutely don’t mean handout. I mean just that- “help”. Instead of “handout” being implied by the person making the statement, it seems like it is the recipient of the statement that interprets “handout” negatively- and Jenna, I’m not trying to make assumptions about you here, I know the formspring thing can get super annoying, I’m just saying, in general, most people I know bristle at *any* mention of help, and automatically say defensive things like “I worked for this. It wasn’t a handout” etc. etc.
In other words, I, personally, see absolutely zero shame in saying “I worked my butt off. And I had help here and here”. When we dropped off our donation at the Goodwill a month or two ago, there were signs everywhere trumpeting “A hand UP, not a hand OUT”. Because ANY kind of help, especially in America, for some reason negates the legitimate hard work of the recipient of the help. And I think that’s an unfortunate mindset to have. For one, it attaches needing help with something shameful. And for two, being of service to one another and helping one another in any way we can is, to me, a large part of the reason we are all here together.
I guess it’s just that, your original post, and this reply to Chelsea, seems a bit defensive, and I feel bad if anything I said made you feel that way. I can’t even begin to imagine how incredibly frustrating it would be to have random strangers commenting on your financial affairs. And I might be reading you wrong. But I guess it just seems like, instead of taking a step back and thinking about what some of us have been saying about privilege, and hidden privileges, and help, etc., in a positive way, you are interpreting it in a negative way, as though those sentiments are meant to demean, or lessen in any way, the hard work you and TH have done. I can’t speak for anyone else, but please trust me when I say that anytime I speak of such things I don’t do so to demean your, or anyone else’s, legitimate hard work.
I apologize again if I am *completely* reading you wrong on this. For my own peace of mind- and to assuage my paranoia- I just wanted to clear up where *I* come from when I say “help”-I’m a soc nerd and the subject of privilege is one I spent a lot of time on. No negativity here. And this is super late, I’m sorry if this is rambly/weird/makes no sense.
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Jenny Penny Reply:
September 29th, 2010 at 11:45 pm
My husband’s work sent him to one of the top schools in the UK to do his MSc. They also paid him his full salary for the year he was away. After that he had to return to Australia and work for them for two more years.
In a million years we would never refer to that as a handout. The opportunity came up, he applied and he got it. There was no luck involved, he was simply the best candidate.
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Sophia Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 12:09 am
Absolutely Jenny, he worked hard, he was the best candidate, he got the job. It’s not a handout at all, and anyone who called it that would be a fool.
I think the point some of us are trying to make is that not everyone has the same opportunities to be able to get the education, to get the job, to be in a position to impress a company in the first place.
It’s the step behind the step behind the step that some of us are mentioning. NPR recently ran a story about how where you go to PRE-K can affect your future earnings by a difference of $15K annually. Opportunities and privileges start very, very early in shaping the path your life can take, and some people don’t even get a map to the START line of the race before everyone else starts running, you know? It’s a tangent, and a nerdy sociological one at that I’ll admit, but I do believe it is pertinent to the underlying philosophy of what we’re talking about when it comes to money and financial security. Most of the time, it absolutely matters where you came from. And that can be a benefit or a hindrance, depending on arbitrary circumstances of birth.
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Turtle Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 12:29 am
Sophia- this is exactly what I was trying to say- thank you for saying it so clearly.
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Gina Reply:
September 29th, 2010 at 11:49 pm
Thanks for what you said, Turtle and Sophia. You’re making me look less nuts, as one of the commenters below suggests I am. (Not that you look nuts - rather, you are saying similar things as I am.)
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Sophia Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 12:01 am
No worries Gina, you were much more eloquent than I in your explanations, so thank *you* for that.
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Katy Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 12:43 am
“I worked my butt off. And I had help here and here”. When we dropped off our donation at the Goodwill a month or two ago, there were signs everywhere trumpeting “A hand UP, not a hand OUT”.
*Yes. Sometimes we like to reject the idea of ‘help’ because to some it implies that THAT is the main reason you go to where you are. We all get help in some form of another, at some point in life, but it’s what we do with that help that truly gets us where we’re going. The person who lacks good work ethic and desire to do everything on their part to get what they need/want will get nowhere - even with all the help in the world.
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Sophia Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 8:25 am
You’re right Katy- I firmly believe it is an intersection of hard work, determination, a strong work ethic, and sometimes benefits or help of hidden privileges along the way. But those benefits or help only propel one forward if the hard work is there too.
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Turtle Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 9:02 am
true enough, Katy. Without hard work or a trust fund, you’re sunk. My mother came to this country with five pounds in her pocket, knew no one, and worked like a crazy person every day of her life. She met a man who did the same. Each of their children has done better financially than they did. A couple of them even got the same deal/agreement/arrangement that TH has with his consulting company, many of us got scholarships that we earned through grades etc. Each of us works hard everyday. But even within our own large family- the results for my mother’s brothers that immigrated just after her, for example, one can easily see that hard work alone doesn’t always breed success. I know that Jenna and TH know this- otherwise they wouldn’t work so hard to stay out of debt so that if a worst case scenario arrives they have savings to rely upon for as long as they can.
Nevertheless, expressing such a “we did it entirely on our own” or “we don’t take help” attitude eschews the extent to which circumstances beyond your control and luck play a part. It makes people resentful and upset rather than simply happy to see that your hard work paid off for you. I say this not because I am resentful- I have all that I want and more-but because Jenna’s main message here should be- look how it’s possible to live without any or with less debt and not a defensive reaction to folks who have questioned her lifestyle. Defensiveness only begets more defensiveness.
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Katy Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:31 am
Funny that you should mention trust funds - even with that some people are sunk! A certain cousin in our family comes from sizable money on this mother’s side - enough to have something like a trust fund set aside for him. But did he make good choices? Nope - and he’s way worse off in his life in nearly every way than little ol me and my husband that paid our own way through college, worked and saved, etc. In fact, that trust fund propelled him into deeper problems that he might not have encountered without it. Money and privilige only gets one so far.
Whether you come from gobs of money or no money, it’s your attitude, choices, and abilities that ultimately dictate where you end up (wherever you decide that ‘finish line’ is).
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Chelsea Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 9:46 am
WOW. Look what happens when I post and then fall asleep!!
I was pretty dadgum positive that the “help” you’d vaguely mentioned was some sort of agreement with TH’s company. That’s fairly standard in the business world. And if that’s the case, then obviously, it’s not “luck”. He worked really hard for that, and you CAN be proud of it.
(I hope this is an obvious joke).
But it is still a hand up. It’s still something that keeps the playing field from being uneven.
When I was in college, I was 100% on scholarship. This was possible because I’d busted my butt in high school and gotten incredible grades. So my books were paid for, my housing was paid for… I even bought a car, because I was given more than I really needed. A beater, but still… a car. When my friends were stressing about buying books and getting from place to place, I could have said, “Well, just eat Ramen noodles and wear last year’s style… that will help you save money.” And they would have smacked me in the head, because although what I was saying was absolutely true, I was working under a totally different system than they were. I had a hand up, and started out a level they had to work just to reach.
There’s nothing wrong with being a part of a program that gives you a hand up. It’s great, particularly for T1 who gets to have this time with his parents both close. But until now (or maybe I just missed it, and in that case, I’m sorry), you’d never explicitly said that TH’s job was who was footing the bill. You’d just said, “Can’t talk about it. Sorry.” For all we knew, you were leasing your kid to Fisher Price to test new toys.
Bottom line is that whether you wanted to or not, you sounded really self-congratulatory about how much you’re doing to live “debt free”. And really, the bulk of the congratulations should go to TH’s company. If you’re still debt free when you’re in a situation where you’re both actually working, like most Americans have to do, then you can probably expect to be lauded for your efforts. Which, clearly, is how you wanted this post to go.
I will say, though, that the day this becomes “Everyone clap for Jenna because she’s so awesome” with every post, it’s going to be reeeeeally boring around here. I think some of your best posts have come either because people disagreed with you, or when the comments turned into a debate. The discussion is what keeps me reading.
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Jenna Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 9:51 am
And still I disagree with you, because you seem to be implying that this is some special circumstance that no one else can be in.
It’s not, it’s hard work. TH came from a communist society, where all are equal (that’s the point), and worked his way up from that. He worked harder, and smarter, than a lot of other people, and I’m just annoyed that we have to talk like he didn’t earn what he has.
The majority of people who don’t have what they need, could, if they would work for it. The Great Depression taught us that.
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Chelsea Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 9:53 am
Obviously, you are not the only people in this situation in the world. I believe I even said that it’s a fairly common arrangement for big companies to make.
But I also said that until now (unless I’m wrong, and have yet to be corrected) this is the first time you’ve explicitly said that his company is footing the bill.
Obviously, if someone else works hard and gets in with that company and gets good grades and applies at the right time, then they can have that same opportunity.
The point is that the people you’re talking to are likely to not have that opportunity, and so the “debt free” life you’re talking about is not the same one that’s available to us.
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Tyson Pyle Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 1:28 pm
I am pretty sure everyone has the opportunity to be debt free. How you get there, or not, depends on so many different factors that to say someone’s specific situation and someone’s specific path they took to become debt free isn’t the same path that others can and will take to become free is fairly obvious and goes without saying. I think the point is that there are certain steps it takes to be debt free. Certain steps that involve working hard, being disciplined, making wise choices and taking advantage of opportunities that are opened to us, whether those opportunities be plentiful or not.
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Turtle Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:03 am
Wait. What did the Great Depression teach us? It taught us that when the capitalist system fails assistance is needed to feed, shelter and clothe people and to put them back to work. It taught us that even this assistance is not enough and that a tyrannical lunatic needs to invade Poland before the economy can really get going again. I’m sorry I don’t understand what the Great Depression taught us. Did people who had very little learn survival skills that they wouldn’t have otherwise? Absolutely. Did we as a society learn that individuals working hard in this system can not do it all entirely on their own? Absolutely. Thank you, FDIC, thank you, Social Security, Thank you, welfare, Thank you, federal infrastructure projects.
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Karin Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:21 pm
If TH had been paid $X more over the past two years and that covered business school, would you all still consider it a “hand-up”? My guess is no, and that if that was the case it would be viewed as TH having just saved his money to pay for future school. To me, whether the company gives you the money through a salary and you save it, or they give it to you for school (with the agreement that you will work to pay it off), it is the same. And neither are hand-outs or hand-ups…unless all salaries that people work hard for are also hand-outs and hand-ups.
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Jennifer Reply:
October 3rd, 2010 at 10:25 pm
I do not understand this statement…”If you’re still debt free when you’re in a situation where you’re both actually working, like most Americans have to do, then you can probably expect to be lauded for your efforts.”
First of all, how would being debt free on two incomes be more laudable than being debt free on one? Wouldn’t it make more sense to show more respect for the family able to live within their means on one income than the family that requires two to do so?
Second, most American couples do not HAVE to work…most CHOOSE to work so that they can have the things they want. It is not by chance or sheer dumb luck that someone “gets” to stay home with their kids. I know a lot of people who have had to sacrifice a LOT in order to stay home. I have a brother-in-law and sister-in-law (who both work) who have the same size family as my husband and I, but we make less than a quarter of what they make. They are the ones who are in mounds of debt. My husband and I made sacrifices so that I could stay home with our children. I’ve gone most of the last five years with no way to get around (except within walking distance) unless my husband was home so that we did not have to spend money we didn’t have. We are not completely debt free, but we are getting there. Unfortunately there are too many that do not see the importance of staying home with young children. (And please note that I say MOST don’t have to work but choose to…I know every situation is different and would hate to try to paint everyone with such a broad stroke.)
Also…most stay-at-home moms would be very annoyed to hear someone try to imply that they do not work. It may not be a paying job, but it is a job. One that you rarely get time away from…and even when you do have time away your thoughts are always there.
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Hayley Marie Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:34 am
I think this whole line of thought is funny. I paid for my first year of college with scholarships. After that… cold hard cash (ok actually it was a check, but still). I certainly don’t look back and say, “My first year I was helped, after that I had to work for it.”
I worked INCREDIBLY hard in high school and was “paid” with scholarships when I graduated that went toward my education. I then worked INCREDIBLY hard in college and was paid and that money went toward my education. I am pretty sure I actually worked harder the year I received scholarships than the years I had a regular job.
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Sarah for Real Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 2:34 pm
Let’s say TH put in enough time through the military to where they would pay for his college.
I doubt you’d be getting the same lack of respect for the work he’s done to earn that education.
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Sophia Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 11:29 am
Sarah, I don’t feel anyone on this thread has been “disrespectful”. Myself, as well as pretty much everyone on this thread, have said multiple times that this isn’t about saying TH and Jenna don’t work hard, and that it isn’t about demeaning their work.
As I said above, it is a thoughtful tangent and discussion on the complex sociological concept of “privilege”, and the well documented fact that certain people are not given the opportunities to even be in a position to go to college in the first place to work hard and get such a job that would offer such a thing. I think you, and a few other people, are missing the point of what we are trying to say. It is impossible for me, as someone who has studied such issues for 6 years over undergrad and grad school, and as someone who has worked with marginalized and under privileged people, who has lived in poverty, to look at any discussion of debt free/financial security/etc. and NOT see the socio-economic factors behind it. I’m sorry if that comes off as disrespectful, or tangential, or pointless, it just is.
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Sarah for Real Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 11:52 am
That was a very good explanation of your feelings Sophia and I appreciate you not being rude about it. I do understand your point, I just felt it was, as you put it, “tangential.” I can see now, if it is your life’s passion, that it would not feel that way to you.
For the record, my comment was referring to whatever comments Jenna had gotten on formspring that spurned this post to begin with.
I still stand behind my opinion that if TH had gotten his “free” education through the military instead of the corporate business world, people would not question it.
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Sophia Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 12:01 pm
Oh, I’m sorry! I didn’t know you were referring to the formspring comment
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Sarah for Real Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 12:18 pm
That’s probably my bad. It’s hard to follow when there are so many comments!
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Sophia Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 12:29 pm
Ain’t that the truth!
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Sarah Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 8:08 am
Jenna, you say all the time that you hate it when people make comments prefaced with “I’m not trying to be rude but…” because they are being rude. When you make comments like “this is what annoys me (and this isn’t necessarily directed to you)” you are doing the exact same thing. I’m sure the criticism is hard to take, but you don’t need to get so defensive. It should be understandable that when you post things like your finances, you are asking for it. The criticism will especially come since you say in EVERY post that you are in business school (by the way, TH is in business school, not you) and you have all this “help” that will allow you to live debt free without having to work. You say you aren’t bragging, but how can that be when you mention it EVERYDAY.
You do have a great life and I commend you for that. Hard work has got you there. I will ammend by saying that in my opinion through reading your blog is that TH’s hardwork, not yours has gotten you there. However, he did choose you so I guess your hardwork somewhere contributed.
I guess my main point (which I took forever to say and got side tracked) is that if you wnat comments and discussion from people that don’t agree with you, you can’t be so defensive and cut them down when they do.
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While I do think that a lot of life is left to luck/ divine providence (or whatever), I happen to agree with you and TH. I’m currently attending a very well ranked graduate school for my program and it used to DRIVE ME NUTS when people would remark how lucky I was. Until someone stays up night after night working towards a goal that they’ve wanted their entire life they won’t know what it feels like to live that dream. While I am certainly not debt free (although it’s all “acceptable” educational debt), I totally agree with you on the need v. want mentality. I think that we live in such a “I want it, and I want it now (so therefore it must be a need)” culture that we truly cannot separate out what is actually a need vs. a want. I read your formspring questions and people seriously need to chill out, everyone indulges in their wants from time to time (for me it’s expensive baked goods and clothing) but the whole point is then to balance those out with other things (I drive a 21 y.o. car, most of that clothing is thrifted).
I’m curious though, since I know you lived in Dallas, what is your stance on automotive debt? And do you think that would depend on your location (Chicago has good public transport, Dallas is abysmal)?
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Katy Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 12:47 am
Yes, what I noticed with my fellow young marrieds back in the day was “We want NOW what our parents worked years and years for”. I think that has got a lot of my peer group in trouble.
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R Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 9:04 am
Yes! This!
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Evelyn Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:06 am
AMEN!
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Oh brother… whomever this “Gina” person is, is nuts.
White privilege? We have a black president. How many other countries can you name that have elected a ‘minority’ as president? A good part of the reason he was elected is because people wanted anything BUT a white person as president. As long as you’re anything but white, you can get scholarships, jobs, and other types of assistance for free in America. So don’t give me this junk about white privilege… because that is utter garbage and it is people like you who even entertain the idea of ‘white privilege’ that are keeping everyone in this country from truly being indifferent.
@Jenna - I understand why you want to explain yourself, but the truth is the only opinion that matters about your household is your family’s. Regardless of where you came from, and what you’ve been given, it is easy to get into mountains of debt, just look at all the celebrities who’ve gone bankrupt! To get and stay debt free by your own family’s definition is wonderful. You should be happy, and since you blogged about it, I presume you are. Don’t let these negative people get you down. They’re reading your blog, not the other way around. I don’t understand why people comment such negative things about people on their own blogs. It’s like… if you don’t like what someone is blogging… don’t read the blog. It’s common courtesy and common sense!
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Gina Reply:
September 29th, 2010 at 11:43 pm
Oh my gosh, Laura. I disagree with you but I am going to choose to respond to you with respect, rather than dismissing what you have to say as “junk.” That Barack Obama was elected president doesn’t mean that race isn’t an issue in the United States. It is still an issue, and I think that had the U.S. not been in such a shambles after the Bush regime, there is no way Barack Obama would have been elected. There was such severe distrust for the Republican party (and the addition of Sarah Palin didn’t help), and on top of that, McCain simply couldn’t court the Christian conservative base that helped Bush get elected. I haven’t heard people saying they wanted Barack Obama to be president because he wasn’t white, and haven’t even seen that viewpoint represented in a wide range of media, from the more liberal to the conservative.
It’s actually a myth that there are so many opportunities for people who aren’t white. If that were the case, then the school systems wouldn’t be so racialized in terms of the distribution of resources, black men wouldn’t be incarcerated at disproportionate rates, and there wouldn’t be tremendous gaps in poverty, health care, etc. between black and white in America. I have had colleagues who are upper-middle class women of color who have wound up in jail for no reason other than being black. And that’s just black and white - that isn’t even touching Latino(a) issues.
The reality is that the U.S. is not post-racial, for race permeates all sectors of society. I think it would be fabulous if race wasn’t an issue, but my attention to the privileges that whiteness brings isn’t making race an issue. Race is already an issue. Colorblindness is a myth, and to embrace the rhetoric of colorblindness at this juncture is to completely disregard the racialized history of the U.S. - not too long ago, segregation was a fact of life and Jim Crow laws were going strong.
Acknowledging white privilege doesn’t mean feeling bad about oneself because of whiteness. It’s about acknowledging that there are assumptions - often positive - made about you all the time because of skin color. In the same way, people of color have to acknowledge the assumptions - often negative - made about them because of their skin color. Acknowledging class privilege doesn’t mean feeling bad about yourself because you come from means, only recognizing the role that privilege has in what you have - and realizing that not everyone has those things and thus there isn’t an objective standard by which we can judge others.
Again, I say all of this as someone who thinks about these issues (in fact, it’s what my career is based on) a lot. I love Jenna’s blog and even when I don’t agree with her or her commenters, I think great discussions get had. And I wasn’t criticizing Jenna either or being negative. I read the Formspring debate last week and I was simply observing that completely discounting luck/blessing/privilege or whatever you want to call it is perhaps what rubs some people the wrong way. (It doesn’t really rub me the wrong way because I can accept and live with the fact that there are many people with different, interesting, and valuable perspectives even if they aren’t mine.) So many factors conspire to enable each of us to achieve what we can achieve and even hold us back. Some of them are seemingly invisible forces that operate through institutions. It’s at least worth thinking through or excavating what those might be, rather than dismissing them out of hand. (For the record, and I hate that I have to legitimate my comment with identity politics: I’m a woman of color, I have a doctorate degree (on a full scholarship plus a stipend), I grew up in one of the wealthiest towns in the U.S. with two professional parents who have supported me emotionally and financially long past when they should have been supporting me - financially at least, my three degrees are from Ivy League schools. I saw all of this because I’m not someone walking around with a big chip on her shoulder and blaming her problems on race. And I do believe there are people walking around with big chips on their shoulders and who rightful can blame their problems, in part but not all, on race).
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Sophia Reply:
September 29th, 2010 at 11:58 pm
Gina, that was far more eloquent than my rambly response
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Emerald Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 12:24 am
Sophia and Gina- I never comment but I wanted to thank you for speaking so eloquently on white privilege. I work in the study abroad field where we are constantly challenging our students to unpack what this term means when they are confronted with poverty and injustice abroad. More importantly, we challenge them to bring these insights home and apply them to the context of their own school, neighborhood or community. My guess is the two of you may have read this article already but for anyone else who is curious a good introduction to the concept of white privilege is an article called “unpacking the invisible knapsack”.
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Sophia Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 8:27 am
Emerald, I need to read that article! It’s been mentioned to me so many times. I’m about to start reading Freire’s “Pedagogy of the Oppressed”, which also comes highly recommended. I’ll read the article first though since it’s been on my “to-read” list for so long.
Thank you for reminding me of it!
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TH Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 12:17 am
White privilege was a real problem years ago, and now the American society is overcorrecting to try to remedy the problem (which isn’t necessarily a bad way to go about it). You can see this at every level. For example, a recent Stanford sociological study by Espenshade and Radford showed that being black instead of white confers an equivalent of a 310-point SAT advantage in college admissions. Because of the social pressure, both professional and public institutions go to great lengths to hire/admit/promote minorities, with black people generally getting the biggest boost.
But we digress from the the topic of this post - that living debt free is possible. Since Jenna represents the privileged class, I thought I’d chip in for the underprivileged. When I came to BYU my parents were not able to help me and I was not eligible for student loans b/c I was international. So I had to get a 4.0 GPA to get a full tuition scholarship and I had to work to pay for housing and food. I lived in a basement without a kitchen ($200/mo) and spent between $50 and $100 on food, rode a bike year round, and wore the same pair of jeans for 3 years. Am I trying to make people sob? Quite the opposite. I didn’t feel that anything was lacking in my life. I was happy to work hard and try to become more financially independent. What I am trying to say is that you can make things work with not a lot of money.
And whether it’s me, or Jenna, or Warren Buffett giving the advice, it really doesn’t matter, because it’s true either way: the great majority of people do not need to be in debt. There are really very few situations that justify going into debt in my view. I have served a Mormon mission in the Bronx and I have met plenty of poor people, and maybe 1% of them had hardships serious enough to go into debt.
Bottom line is this: whether you’re black or white, well off or poor, you can live within your means and make things work unless you have a truly exceptional situation.
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Gina Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 2:49 am
Not offended, just disagreeing.
A note, there’s nothing wrong with the term “black” - it’s more comprehensive than African American, since it includes anyone in the African diaspora.
For you and your consulting friends who assume that life would have been easier if you had been a woman or a minority, you are assuming that nothing in your life would be different as a result, and that you would only have what you imagine are the positive leg-ups out there for women and minorities. The thing is, these leg-ups exist for a reason, a historically warranted reason that perhaps you can’t grasp the gravity of if you haven’t been raised in the U.S. or haven’t been taught to think critically about race in the U.S.
Sure, if you had an automatic SAT boost or something like that, it would be so much easier to get into college. But the reason something like that exists is that racial bias in test scores is studied and well-known.
If you want to take the Stanford study you mention as evidence, yes, sure black folks get the biggest boost, but have you considered that there wind up being proportionally fewer black people who are in the position to get that boost? It’s not because they don’t work hard, aren’t capable and intelligent - the social factors are not a thing of the past, they still exist. Any of these “boosts” are meant to counter that and, in my opinion, fail to fix the root causes of the problem.
I know that you’re an immigrant (so am I) and so often, immigrants are sold on this version of the U.S. that completely elides its social problems, particularly around race. Many people in the U.S. are hugely xenophobic but there’s room for the so-called “white” immigrant (which you’d qualify as now - although not at one point in U.S. history). And that’s the self-made man, I came here with nothing and look what I achieved. I think it’s great that this is possible, but just because its possible doesn’t mean it’s immune to the larger system of racialization.
But of course anyone could live debt free, regardless of race, culture, etc. - if the circumstances are right. If you’re able bodied and able minded, living in a place where you’re not getting priced out by gentrification, have a good enough education to get you a job. But it’s not just under exceptional circumstances that people can’t do that - it doesn’t take too much thought to envision the multiple ways that someone could wind up in trouble, even watching what comes in and goes out in terms of money.
I’m not defending debt - I am not a fan of it and I’m good with money even while having taste that runs to the extravagant. But it’s important to me to fully understand why I have what I have and why maybe not everyone does.
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Sophia Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 8:34 am
TH, I think Gina summed up my thoughts best when she pointed out that the chances of any minority winding up in a position where they are vying for a high profile corporate job, or applying to law school, are so small that that is why the “boost” exists. In the small picture of specific examples, such as affirmative actions programs in companies or quotas in schools, it can seem unfair, or like being a minority is an advantage. It’s kind of like when people say “But our President is black, so it’s all good”. These are all pretty rare circumstances- especially the whole “being the President” thing- that’s unlikely for pretty much anyone
But when you blow it out, and look at the big picture, the inequalities are much more clear and hugely disparate. That’s what I meant when I said not in every situation or everywhere is being white an advantage, but the vast majority of the time it is.
And I agree with your general statements on debt. I struggled hard to pay off all my debt and I’m very glad I did. And I wish we taught more budgeting/personal finance in school. If I could wave a magic wand and get a class added to high school curriculum, it would be a mandatory one on credit, budgeting, saving, building for retirement, etc.
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Anna Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 9:03 am
TH,
Thank you!
America has over corrected. The truth is, that as human beings (with regard to debt) we all have the potential to fall into the same trappings.
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TJ Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 9:35 am
For the record, yes, I do find that offensive. I won’t rehash the arguments that Gina and Sophia already made, but as a white male, you will *not* have the hardest time moving upwards. You have benefited and will continue to benefit from white privilege. That isn’t to denigrate your hard work — I’m also white and have also worked very hard to rise to the top of my field, and like you I am justifiably proud of the work I’ve put in. But I do find it offensive to believe that if only I were a racial minority I would be even better off. It ignores the context.
In any case, I think the main takeaway from Espenshade/Radford is that we don’t do enough to help the economically disadvantaged, and I think that’s in large part the product of a systematic failure to give equal access to education throughout all levels of schooling.
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Sophia Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 3:51 pm
Yes, TJ, that’s what it comes down to - inequalities in education is huge for me as part of the problem. The books “The Shame of the Nation” and “Savage Inequalities” are excellent, well written, well researched examples of this.
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Jennifer Reply:
October 3rd, 2010 at 9:44 pm
I do believe that in some areas “white privelege” exists…but I do NOT think it is as widespread as many try to make it out to be. I do believe that in many circumstances it would be somewhat “easier” to be a minority…and this because of America’s “overcorrection” from the horrible years of slavery and segregation.
My mother worked for a small company for a while when I was growing up. She had very little post-high school education (as in…maybe a semester in college) but she worked hard, and was able to do more than some of the others on the payroll who had their degrees. At one point she had a fellow employee (who happened to be a black woman) that did not do the work she was supposed to be doing. In fact, toward the end of this woman’s work with the company, she would come in and spend the majority of her day (on the payroll) looking for another job. She was never fired because the boss was afraid she would cry “racism”. She had it made…she could do whatever she wanted because of the different laws and attitudes in place that made created this fear. I know this is an exception…but I share it to point out that while yes, there are probably instances of “white privilege” there are also many instances of “black privilege”.
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Kalen Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:18 am
” but I’ve had this conversation with many friends in consulting, and we even came up with a saying”
TH - that’s your first issue. You’re having the conversation with friends that are probably all white & privileged. Haha.
White privilege is still very real and documented in 1000′s of studies - some more elaborate than others. The phenomenon is further exemplified in white people saying that it no longer exists.
Also:
“whether you’re black or white, well off or poor, you can live within your means and make things work unless you have a truly exceptional situation.”
My God do I disagree with this probably more than anything I’ve disagreed with in my entire life. You cannot truly believe this as intelligent as you are? Either that or you’ve had very little exposure to poverty. Lord this is so offensive… I’m sorry but wow.
Anyway - good post Jenna - living debt free rocks!
You both seem to have your priorities in the right place.
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Kalen Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:23 am
Oh - and PS to TH - I know you weren’t *trying* to be offensive. But as someone in social services, that grew up in one of the poorest rural areas in the country, it is extremelllly difficult for me to know that people are out there who believe this (and are so, so smart - much smarter than I am). It just… it is actually painful, to be honest. There is so many families I could introduce you to that would easily change your mind.
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Kalen Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:24 am
*There is to *There are -
K I’m done replying to my own comment now, haha.
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Melissa Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 2:02 pm
I completely agree with TH’s comment that “Bottom line is this: whether you’re black or white, well off or poor, you can live within your means and make things work unless you have a truly exceptional situation.”
There are situations that cause people to be poor and in debt but honestly, if you are able bodied and can work, you should be able to live within your means. If you can’t do that then I would assume that your priorities are out of wack.
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Mary Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 3:52 pm
First, I want to say a huge THANK YOU to Gina, Sophia, and Kalen for your responses!! This is just to respond to Melissa and TH: As a social worker working in a city hospital, I see the “poorest of the poor” and many are not able bodied enough to work full time. Furthermore, if they were able bodied, there are not enough jobs (other than minimum wage positions) to help these folks. For the homeless, it is a near-impossible task to find jobs to help them get off the streets. Denver has an incredible amount of resources for the homeless, but it is just not enough! I whole heartedly disagree that “whether you’re black or white, well off or poor, you can live within your means and make things work unless you have a truly exceptional situation”. There are just too many “exceptional situations” and too little help.
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Melissa Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 4:17 pm
In case you didn’t notice in my comment I said “able bodied and can work” - reading a comment before responding to it is usually helpful… I was not talking about people that are unable to work for whatever reason. Also, there is nothing wrong with taking a minimum wage position. Last time I checked, minimum wage is better than no wage.
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Mary Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 4:51 pm
Melissa, I want to apologize if my response offended you. My intent was to offer a new prospective on the “whether well off or poor” comment. Its responses like yours that make people less likely to comment and regret it if they do. And in response to the minimum wage comment-there aren’t even enough minimum wage jobs offered to people. You are right, minimum wage is better than no wage, but that amount of money is almost impossible to work with (especially if you add in family and their needs).
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Jennifer Reply:
October 3rd, 2010 at 9:27 pm
I just feel like I need to reply here to your “that amount of money is almost impossible to work with” comment. Growing up I lived with my mother and three siblings. My parents are divorced, my father did not pay his child support. My mom worked MULTIPLE jobs…took jobs cleaning peoples home…whatever she had to do in order to take care of her family. It CAN be done. The problem is that many are not willing to do what is necessary. (And yes, I realize that at this moment in time in some areas finding multiple jobs…even minimum wage jobs…might be difficult. But this problem of debt is not one that just appeared with the recession.)
Of course as a social worker you are going to be introduced to a large percentage of people who fall under the “exceptional situations” category…those are usually the ones who need the help from a social worker in the first place. Yes, there are areas where there are a greater number of people in these “exceptional situations”, but that doesn’t mean it is like that everywhere.
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Kalen Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 4:54 pm
Melissa -
I agree with you that people who can work *should* work if they are facing money issues. However, a few simple lessons in economics and talking to some people who work minimum wage jobs would be all it takes to assure you that minimum wage is often times not enough (or near close enough).
You do realize that there are minimum wage jobs that do not offer health insurance still? What happens to that family when a medical crisis hits?
What about a newlywed couple where the husband dies and the wife is left with a brand new house/mortgage and doesn’t have extended family? And maybe he didn’t have life insurance?
What about a family of four and the mother loses her job because of the economy, cannot find work for a few months, so the they are living off minimum wage? It’s nearly impossible without outside help and/or going into debt.
These aren’t exceptional situations is what we’re trying so desperately to get across (and it’s so sheltered to believe that they are). A matter of fact, this is becoming more of the norm than anything else, sadly enough.
These hypothetical situations are only a few ways that people who are “able bodied” and can work get sent into a debt/poverty spiral. There are 1000′s of other ways that it can happen - some just involve bad luck.
Anyway. I’m sure my argument (and others) falls on deaf ears. I have sneaking suspicions that people who truly believe the way you do (and TH does) have had very little exposure to real world scenarios when it comes to poverty and financial struggles. Otherwise, I find it hard to believe you’d hold the same opinion.
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Gina Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 5:01 pm
Kalen, the other alternative to people having little exposure to real world scenarios is that they feel like their achievement has happened in spite of challenges of poverty and struggle, and if they can do it, then everyone could. That’s the even more dangerous perspective, IMO.
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melissa Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 7:53 pm
Let’s agree to disagree. You won’t succeed in changing my mind (especially when you are saying I am sheltered and basically calling me stupid) and I know I won’t change your mind and that is fine with me.
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Gina Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 7:43 am
Thanks, Melissa. I actually wrote my dissertation on race and white privilege!
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Gina Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 1:59 pm
This was meant to go to Melinda below.
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Sarah for Real Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 3:37 pm
HOW did this discussion about debt denigrate into a racial one?!
Jenna’s point is simple, no? It doesn’t matter where you came from, what color you are, or how much you make, just don’t spend more money than you have.
What do people expect Jenna to say exactly. “I’m sorry that I make money and can spend said money on food and clothing and education for my family.” Seriously?! Or perhaps they would prefer her to give it all up to charity and live off government assistance?
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Gina Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 5:05 pm
It’s not that the discussion became a racial one. Race is definitely one of the many circumstances that can play into debt. Case in point: take a look at the disproportionate number of people of color who were given subprime mortgages even when they *could* afford regular mortgages. That’s a really overt example, but the things that most of us are talking about are hidden privileges of race and/or class that operate.
And the other thing is, this set of conversations has taken on a life of its own and has ceased to be about Jenna and her family’s decisions. For the record, I agree with her that if the conditions are right, all you have to do is make sure you spend less than you make. This conversation has gotten more complicated and more intellectual, and yes it was spurred by Jenna’s post but is instead about social conditions in the U.S. today.
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Megan Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 10:23 am
I wouldn’t normally jump in, especially about something so incredibly off topic. But Gina, your comment on Subprime mortgages is misleading. A subprime mortgage is defined as a mortgage given to a higher risk borrower. Usually with lower credit scores, marked by past due payments and even past bankruptcy. Wether the “disproportionate number of people of color” could have afforded regular mortgages or not, they earned a subprime mortgage based on their abuses of credit. The reason subprime morgages were sold as a good thing was because it gave a house to someone who could afford it but normally wouldn’t have qualified. Your statement implys that race is a deciding factor in what mortgage you qualify for & that people of color were being handed out subprimes because they were colored. If race has a factor, it’s more about how different races treat credit, and how that affects them later on down the road.
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Gina Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 1:54 pm
It’s not that the could have AFFORDED regular mortgages, it’s that they could have QUALIFIED for regular mortgages but were given subprime ones instead.
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Gina Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 1:56 pm
This is based on evidence from the Home Mortgage Disclosure act - the percentage of subprime loans varied by race WHEN CONTROLLING for income.
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Gina Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 1:56 pm
I meant to say “income and credit”.
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sarsk624 Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 2:44 pm
Megan: I just wanted to bring this article to your attention:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/07/us/07baltimore.html?scp=8&sq=subprime%20mortgage%20minority&st=cse
It is one of many that have been reported in the past two years about the very issue Gina was referencing. Just some food for thought
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Sophia Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 11:55 am
@Sarah For Real- This is how it started- Gina mentioned, upthread, that hidden privileges and class/racial benefits DO contribute to future opportunities for financial security. Then Laura made a completely false and ignorant statement about how because we have a black president there is no such thing as white privilege, and then she made an offensive statement about how every race but white can get an array of welfare to help them out.
If you’ve read the whole thread, I think you can see that a number of us are pretty passionate about this issue, for a variety of reasons, from working in certain fields to studying these issues for YEARS, to volunteering with people, etc., and none of us were going to sit back and let someone rail about how because we had a black president everything was hunky dory.
I have had “n***er lover” screamed at me, in a public place, on the street, THREE TIMES due to my Obama bumper sticker. One truck with two young white men screaming it tried to intimidate me by pretending like they were going to sideswipe me. On another occasion a man followed it up with threatening to rape me since I like black d!ck so much and voted for “my n***er president”, he wanted to show me what a “real man was like”. I’ve grown up listening to people talk about “good black people vs n***ers”, seeing Confederate flags, hearing offensive racist jokes, and during the election people I had known for years, and had never heard anything racist out of, sent me vile racist e-mail forwards about Obama, his wife, and even his children- really, I could go on, and on, and on, but I won’t. The point is it is beyond offensive to me to hear people cavalierly brush aside race issues. I’m not going to sit by and listen to it. I’m not going to let it go unchallenged, which is why I- and I assume why others- responded to Laura’s ludicrous statement.
I’m sorry if you felt the conversation “denigrated” into race, but I can assure you this thread had nothing to do with Jenna or making her give away all her money to charity. It had to do with Laura making what a lot of us found to be an offensive statement in response to Gina’s comment upthread. I should be to the point where I can ignore such things, but it still pisses me off and I can’t.
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Jenna Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 12:06 pm
This is the most I’ve ever seen you get worked up, and you’ve commented pretty passionately before!
Racism makes me very sad as well. I’m sorry you’ve been through some of the things you have.
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Sophia Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 12:33 pm
I told myself this morning that I just need to take. a. step. back. I get so worked up over it, and it isn’t productive in the end, and I worry I’ve been too harsh/mean/counter productive… it’s really hard.
And sorry for the threadjacking- I’m glad you understand
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Sophia Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 12:03 pm
Also, Sarah for real, I’m sorry if I came off harsh. I just get really worked up about racial issues because I feel like when I talk about them to some people I’m trying to talk about a different reality that they refuse to believe or something… I don’t know how to describe it. As I said at the bottom of my comment, I need to learn how to ignore some things but I can’t because they upset me so. freaking. much.
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Sarah for Real Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 12:33 pm
No I don’t think you were harsh at me, just worked up about something you believe in. I appreciate the synopsis from your point of view and I can see why the discussion became so passionate.
I did read through the comments to see the progression. My only point, like I said above was that it seemed tangential. But again, I can see now why you feel it was not. I apologize if my sarcasm made light of something you find just the opposite. That was not my intent.
Thanks again for speaking intelligently and nicely. Others *ahem, gina* could learn a thing or two
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Sophia Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 12:36 pm
I need to take a break from these comments and just step. away. from. the. keyboard.- as I told Jenna, it’s hard for me to not get really worked up over it, because I’ve dedicated so much of my education to sociological issues, I’ve experienced so much that reinforces my beliefs in racial inequalities, and so much of my work is with marginalized groups that have so many barriers despite their hard work- I appreciate your understanding that this is important to me and others which is why the whole thread exploded, and I also understand how you could be thinking “how did Jenna’s budget turn into this discussion??”
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Gina Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 1:58 pm
I’m not seeing where I wasn’t speaking intelligently or nicely. Kindly point this out to me? Since I’m the one who started this direction of the topic, I do think I took great care to set a respectful tone.
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Sarah for Real Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 2:18 pm
“This conversation has gotten more complicated and more intellectual…”
That statement hurt a bit and I felt a cold shoulder. It read to me, “you’re dumb now go away and don’t interrupt our conversation.”
Maybe I read too far between the lines.
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Gina Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 2:46 pm
Sarah, I am so sorry if that offended you. I didn’t mean intellectual as something positive - I frequently lament about how everything in my life seems to get “intellectualized” — turned into an academic debate and subject to endless debate. In this case, not simply about the basics of debt (what goes out vs. what goes in) but about social factors. I didn’t realize that would offend, so I’m sorry it did - if I had said “over-intellectualized” instead, then you probably wouldn’t have felt insulted.
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Melinda Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 9:48 pm
I hardly ever post on here but I just wanted to say, Gina, that I’m a social work student at one of the top MSW programs in the country and your response on white privilege was probably more eloquent than most of my fellow classmates. Don’t let anyone tell you different.
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Jennifer Reply:
October 3rd, 2010 at 9:50 pm
Just wanted to share my thoughts on this little phrase you used “black men wouldn’t be incarcerated at disproportionate rates”.
Unless you somehow know exactly how many black men, white men, hispanic men, (& women) etc. actually perpetrate crimes it is illogical to claim that black men are “incarcerated at disproportionate rates”. Unless you know all of the statistics of all of the crimes you cannot know for certain that a “dispropotionate” amount of black men are actually involved in crime in the first place.
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Sara Reply:
October 4th, 2010 at 10:01 pm
Read Michelle Alexander’s new book The New Jim Crow for a good place to start on this issue.
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Sophia Reply:
September 29th, 2010 at 11:51 pm
Laura, just because we have a black president doesn’t mean that white privilege isn’t very real.
Even the most cursory glance at a number of socioeconomic factors reveals a huge discrepancy between the lives and opportunities of the white majority versus marginalized minorities. It is a benefit to be white-I’m not crying over it, or feeling guilty, but it would be absurd for me to not realize that. No, not everywhere or in every situation, but on average, it is easier to be white than it is to be black or Hispanic. This isn’t an opinion, this isn’t liberal white guilt, this is hard fact borne out by myriads of different studies on an array of factors.
And this statement- “As long as you’re anything but white, you can get scholarships, jobs, and other types of assistance for free in America.” is patently false, not to mention rather meanspirited- the facts don’t support your statement when you look at what races are most often unemployed, undereducated, going hungry, homeless, illiterate, the list goes on. I guess they gave me a free pass, since I’m white and got every single form of assistance you can get, as did all my other poor white friends growing up- free breakfast/lunches, mom on food stamps, government cheese, even HUD housing.
“Privilege” is used here in a socio-economic/sociological sense. It isn’t meant to say that white people are all rich, or get everything they want, or are all born with silver spoons in their mouth. It isn’t meant to say white people have everything handed to them, it isn’t meant to say that white people never work hard. Our society has placed high value and favor on certain attributes, and some of those attributes are not earned or learned, they just *are*. It isn’t a judgment on white people. It just… is. I don’t know of any better way to explain it.
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Virginia Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 1:52 am
I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here. I’m trying very, very hard. But your comment comes off as naive, sheltered and misguided at best.
Please, please read and reread the answers you got. They are very well though out and might shed some light on this issue.
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Christiana (us meets uk) Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 9:04 am
Like Virginia, I truly hope you consider Gina and Sophia’s points.
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Kimberly Michelle Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 1:54 pm
I will add my “ditto” to this as well.
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Laura Elizabeth Reply:
October 2nd, 2010 at 1:05 am
I agree with Laura. My husband is Hispanic, and so is one of my best friends. They get so much more help with school (from the government) than I ever will, just because they can bubble in Hispanic instead of Caucasian.
Also, I’m in an HR class right now in school, and we have just been learning about Title VII and the Equal Employment Laws and how our country has laws set to “make-up” for previous discrimination. There are so many ways set up that employers must hire a certain number of people from different minority groups, and the same for colleges, etc.
I’m not saying that where we came from doesn’t make a difference to where we end up. But, you can work hard and become whoever you want to be. I’m not saying it’s always easy. But, it’s usually doable. There may be extenuating circumstances, I know. I’m just saying, in GENERAL.
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I so appreciate what you said about renting versus buying your home. I get so tired of people talking about home ownership as the only way to live. My husband and I get to live in a beautiful home, not worry about home repairs (such as our current mystery leak in the ceiling) and move country every few years. Also - “Debt free isn’t about the amount of money you have, it’s the amount of money you spend”. Awesome. I totally agree.
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Caroline Reply:
September 29th, 2010 at 11:30 pm
Thank you! We rent a 2 bed place that is a 5 min walk from the beach, sure it doesn’t have a garden and because we don’t have a car we have to walk to get our groceries (which probably means we think more about what we buy cause it’s heavy to carry!)
Over here in Australia it’s shocking to people that we don’t want to buy a house that takes up the entire quater acre block, own two cars and have a mortgage that takes over more than half our monthly income, then spend anything extra on multiple credit cards. Why don’t we want/do that when it’s what everybody wants/does, isn’t it?
We have talked about it and as I come from Europe, I don’t feel the need to own a house with a theatre room, and would be happy in a townhouse or an apartment close to a town centre.
The other arguement people always make is about kids. You wouldn’t want kids to grow up in a rented home! Shock, horror! Why not? Is it going to mentally scar them to grow up in a place that isn’t owned by their parents? I grew up in a one bedroom apartment (we had a fold out couch)later on my parents baught a yacht which we lived on (not a fancy one with staff, just us) I went to boarding school where we changed rooms every term. It was a very transient lifestyle, but I’m not scarred or resentful. It’s made me appreciate the smaller indepencies that we have.
Everyone is different and wants different things and that is something that people need to realise. The American/Australian dream is changing, becoming more of a make do and mend sort of society.
Soulemama blogger just moved out of their house of (I think) 7 years that they RENTED. (www.soulemama.com) now that’s something to think about!
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Jenn Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 8:37 am
I rent, and live in a great apartment in a great part of a large expensive city, and I love it. We don’t own a car (we don’t need to) and I walk to work everyday (free exercise!).
The only time I ever started doubting this lifestyle was when my husband and I started thinking about having kids. I don’t know what it was, but something to do with my middleclass suburban upbringing made it feel so wrong to raise a kid in an apartment - god forbid! I’ve since gotten over it, but it was a weird preconception that I didn’t even know I had.
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Katy Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 12:52 am
Home-owning: if you want to, great. Go for it. You can’t? No big deal. I think people start equating home ownership with “space, room to roam, setting down roots, etc.” and renting “small, temporary, nomad-like” as if you can’t do all those things above in a rented space.
While in the military, we won’t own anything for now. If we get to the point that we’d like to buy a house, we’ll do it. But until then, I think we’ll survive and our children will not be scarred for life because the beautiful home(s) they lived in weren’t paid for with a mortage loan.
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Stick it to ‘em Jenna! I’ve been to so many classes and programs etc. and even coming from the Church, and the bottom line is, spend less than you earn! (And, save for retirement, emergencies, etc.) I think it’s awesome you guys are debt-free and who friggin cares what everybody else thinks because YOU get to live with the satisfaction that you don’t owe anyone a dime. I’ve been a little caught up in materialism lately, so this post has brought me down a little bit back to my true goals (although that definitely involves owning a house).
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12I COULD NOT AGREE WITH YOU MORE!! This is something I am so passionate about and that is why all the attacks on Formspring have been making me absolutely nuts (and not just because they are attacking one of my best friends in the entire world). Being debt free is a lesson I had to learn, the hard way. I think people learn what they want to learn, they make important what they want to make important, and sometimes when they see someone living the way they wish they could live, they have nothing better to do than attack it. Nothing gets someone out of debt except hard work. And that is speaking from very personal experience. Blessings come into it, but blessings are earned as well. I am so proud of you Jenna. And…I love you. Duh.
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13Debt is such a touchy subject, and I think you handled it beautifully. We have an absolutely mind-boggling amount of debt — nearly $300,000 — and every single penny of it is educational debt, a little from Husband’s undergrad, and most from medical school. Because of his debt, we are huge savers. But since we each live in different cities, we have double the living expense debt (pay two rents, buy food separately, two sets of utilities, plus paying to travel back and forth), and we still manage to save 46% of our income. If we lived under the same roof, we’d be saving over 60%. We don’t deprive ourselves from spending any money, but we pick and choose. If I have X amount to spend, what is going to give me the most satisfaction? Some months it is a new pair of boots. Other months, it might be a book and a splurge at the grocery store. But the important thing is that it is never everything that I want when I want it.
For anyone looking to get out of debt, I cannot stress budgeting enough. I used to track with Microsoft Money and then an Excel sheet, but we switched to Mint 9 months ago and I LOVE it. We can both access it, there’s a great visual representation of how much we’ve spent from each category, and there is a great new “goals” feature. There is something about visually seeing how much money we are saving for each goal (buy a house fund, retirement fund, pay off massive medical school debt fund, etc) and how on track we are to the day that makes me even MORE excited to save. While we have always saved, it used to feel like a burden, but now that I can see the money building up, it makes it so much easier… every month, I want to see if I can bump up the “projected goal completion” date!
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14I look at spending/debt the same way I look at eating/dieting. I completely understand the concept, the facts, the calories in and our, the money in and the money out. But what I struggle with (and what so many Americans struggle with) is staying on track. I’ve lived with debt for so many years that it starts to seem normal, or even comfortable. Now that I’m actually making money since I graduated from law school, I’m starting to envision a debt-free life, and it looks amazing! Breaking out of a cycle of spending and misinterpreting wants for needs is so much harder than I ever thought. I’d love to hear more about how you changed your mindset. Was it just something that clicked for you? An “a-ha” moment? Or has it been an ongoing learning experience?
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15Though I haven’t had the same experience you’ve had with this, but I still don’t believe it’s okay for people to judge others based on appearances. And really who cares where the money comes from (provided it’s legit)? Honestly, I’ve never considered you a bragger. For someone who doesn’t know you, they should really hold onto their words until they’ve maybe read more of your blog to get a better idea.
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16I just wanted to say we share *very* similar budgeting/debt free philosophies with you. I’d rather live simply and frugally and have more time and freedom than be in debt and have to stay at a job I hated, or in a home I was upside down in, etc. Writing this from my second hand bed, in an apartment furnished entirely from thrift stores
Sorry you were feeling budget attacked this week! You have written so many times in the past about your frugality, goals, and careful budgeting, and long time readers know and respect that about you.
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17“There are people out there who have hard knocks, who do everything they can but still can’t make ends meet, but I doubt many of them are reading this blog.
Why? Because when life is really that hard for you, you don’t have the internet at home because that’s not a necessity.”
Preach. It. Sister.
(reminds me of the friend that claimed she had to work to put food on the table…after showing me their brand new home theather projection system and theater chairs…not bought used;)
**In the Air Force, you notice something pretty quickly amongst the newly enlisted (non-officers) called an Airmen Mobile. For the newly commissioned officers, it’s called a Liutenant Mobile. When men/women join the military, they are intially surprised with how much cash they seem to have. Your housing is supplied (though not “free” in the traditional sense, maybe I’ll explain later), healthcare is provided, and a few other perks.
What do many new enlisted and officers go out and do? Buy the fanciest, most expensive new car they’ve always desired. It’s not at all uncommon to see those in the military with some of the nicest vehicles around, especially the younger, newly joined ones. It’s an interesting phenomenon - people, when they find a little extra cash on hand, love to spend every red cent of it. Unfortunately, many in the Air Force, despite the perks (well-deserved perks mind you) still struggle with debt and other financial issues.
One would think that in an environment and employment where the neccessties (“help”) is given, that that should eliminate financial problems, but it’s once again proof that no matter what you make, what you’ve been blessed with, what employment you are given - - at the end of the day, your financial state is determined by what you do with your money. My husband still rely on just one car (thanks to carpools in the past and a great bus system now), one income, have an eight month emergency fund, and can afford some of the little comforts of life or don’t need to freak out when our son put pennies in the car CD player and costs us 100′s of dollars (true story
. Even my mom wants to attribute this to the “free house”, but that’s not it. It’s because we live well within what we make, we save for what we want (saving for a minivan right now!), and back when we did have two incomes we still basically lived on one so we could use mine to fully pay off our credit and college acquired debt. It meant reeeallly figuring out needs vs. wants, but I’m so grateful that I have a husband that is so good with money and that we see eye-to-eye on this important marital issue.
Boy, I sound awfully braggy. I’ll definately admit that I thank God everyday for His guidance, for taking our efforts and multiplying them, especially as we pay our tithing. For the many counsels to the leaders of the church regarding self-reliance. Truly, God has blessed us very much, but we’ve tried not to squander what we’ve been blessed with. We’ve tried to use good judgement with what we’ve been given - something I’d suspect He expects of us all; No matter where we start from, we use good judgement and hard work in everything in life, including our finances.
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18I don’t get why people are so being so strange about the “help”…hello it’s called an offer. You work for us like a slave and we pay for your school. It’s the same everywhere, but sadly doesn’t really exist in law school as much.
I am kind of torn because I think very few people are self made, I think your dad is a perfect example of self made but those are very rare.
I find it very annoying (especially in LDS community, if I am being honest) when people seem to preach that people should pull themselves up from their bootstraps, if they are Mexican or poor. I think it shows a very myopic perspective of how the world works. Not everyone can get insurance, not everyone can afford an education, etc.
When you say be debt free, I think that you are talking to your readership which is what like 70 percent college educated or plus. It’s not like you are saying to some homeless guy, what’s wrong with you, why aren’t you debt free? Which I think some people are missing??? Or maybe I am missing the mark?
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Sophia Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 8:38 am
Emmie, I think this is a good point. I too get frustrated with educated, upper middle class people with good jobs who just fritter away their money and then complain about debt. I know many people who know they need to get out of debt, talk about it all the time, have the money to do it, and they just don’t.
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Jenn Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 8:49 am
I agree - stop calling it “help”! I get “help” from my employer twice a month to help pay my rent and my bills and sometimes even a nice pair of shoes. It’s called a salary and I’ve earned it!
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tiffany Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 12:12 pm
hahaha, so so true! LOVE IT!
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Turtle Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 9:36 am
Emmie, It’s absolutely true that there are a lot of upper-middle class people who spend their money foolishly and act like living within your means is a big secret. This may be who the post is directed to- after all, jenna admits that people who work incredibly hard at working class jobs would not have time to read her blog- but some of the defensive language that Jenna uses undermines or distracts from this message.
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I’d like to think that J and I live well within our means - but we too have been very lucky with how life has turned out. And in truth, we are debt free as we speak - with a handful of my university fees as the only thing that needs left paying. (Although it’s slightly different in Australia.. we have something called HECS, which is a scheme where the cost of higher education is loaned to you and you automatically pay it back/have amounts deducted from your full time earnings after you’ve graduated. Unfortunately, scholarships at universities are not as common abroad - we don’t have a huge assortment of colleges to visit, I believe 47 in our ENTIRE country? - so nearly all uni students will be owing once they’ve completed their studies.
We lived at home, with our parents, until we were 23 and 25 respectively - to save. We drove used cars. We worked and had part time jobs while studying. We travelled only with our savings and didn’t use credit cards. Our move abroad was partially to travel, but partially to save - the British pound is MUCH better (or at least, WAS much better!) to save & convert.
Being debt free is HARD WORK and lots of sensible choices, and it’s not an easy thing to do. I commend anyone who makes the effort to try.. just try and cut back. (And also: credit cards are horrific. Just saying.) I think you’re incredibly brave to put yourself out there and share your situation with your readers.
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20Up until yesterday, I totally agreed that educational debt was 100% acceptable. Then I listened to this guy on Dave Ramsey, and I have to admit…he makes a compelling argument. Now I’m not sure where I stand.
http://www.daveramsey.com/radio/home/loadclip/bissonnette.mp3
Dave Ramsey isn’t always my cup of tea politically, but I still listen to his show nearly every day to keep myself in check. Debt-free is possible! I hope this post inspires people to go for it.
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Marissa C Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 9:36 am
You know-we listened to him talk about educational debt and I just don’t agree. Yes, your undergrad in philosophy probably isn’t worth $120k. However, when people specifically mentioned med school, he just didn’t understand why you couldn’t get scholarships or work your way through it. My husband is a med student and umm…hello-there isn’t time to do that! At all! They specifically discourage you from working your 1st and 2nd years because there is SO MUCH to learn, and the schedule 3 & 4th year + residency just doesn’t allow another job-there is hardly enough for family time. He just doesn’t get it in some areas.Scholarships are also very limited too.
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em Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 5:05 pm
I definitely think degrees like MD’s are outliers- you’re right.
But I do like his mindset for undergrad & his work philosophy though- my college job was incredibly rewarding (personally and for my resume) & I’ll definitely encourage my kids to do the same.
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MrsW Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 5:11 pm
Hey now, my husband’s getting his PhD in Philosophy. Don’t hate!
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em Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 6:32 pm
Oh, I DEFINITELY consider post-grad degrees in the Arts to be outliers as well.
My partner’s getting his PhD in BioMed Engineering, which is a field that offers stipends almost across the board, owing (as I understand it) to it being a very nuanced, research-heavy field. He worked hard of course, but getting funding was definitely possible.
I, however, will be after at least an MA in English Lit. A program that won’t cost us will be MUCH harder to find. Bummer for us right brains
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Heather Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 2:04 pm
Dave Ramsey has been very influential in getting my fiance and I on the path toward being debt free. He has some awesome ideas and although I also don’t agree with him politically, I love his advice and hope to use it to become debt free myself.
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I’m in debt from school and I’m working to pay it off. I live at home but pay rent and as soon as my educational debt is gone, I am going to put myself in more debt in order to be able to move out and have my own home. Where I live the option to rent is not there. In order to rent I would have to commute to work in a 45 min + drive and I would rather live closer to work (and my family) and have a home that I know I worked hard for.
Everyone else is different. I think you did a decent job of making sure not to step on anyones toes. Also, you are only as honest as you want to be. No where in your budget do you state how much income you bring in per month, only how much does out.
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22I am one of very few people I know who graduated from law school debt-free. I attended a school in the system where my father works, guaranteeing myself tuition remitted for three years. My parents paid my living expenses during this time. If they had not done this, I would have had to take on at least $30k a year in debt. I acknowledge two things - one is that I am lucky that my parents value education enough to support me. But my dad and I are also smart. My father stayed at the University even though getting tenure was a nightmare, he stayed even when they eliminated his department, he stayed even though he was the lowest paid tenured professor in his department, even though he probably could have made a lot more money at a firm (he’s a lawyer). For a Georgetown Law grad, he’s woefully underpaid and he stayed that way for my sister and I to enjoy the benefits of a no-cost college education. I attended college and law school for “free”, meaning that the amount my father was underpaid, he somewhat made back through our attending his university and not another. Many many many people have commented on how lucky I am. But unlike having parents that support me, the tuition remission isn’t luck - I, like TH, was smart enough to recognize that I did not want to have to spend an insane (and it is insane) amount of money on a postgraduate education. I chose to go to a 4th tier law school and commit myself to staying in Maryland, because I could not stomach taking on that kind of debt (I also was offered a minimal scholarship that paid my fees and books). TH chose to go to a very specific program because it gave him the possibility of a business school offer. He also chose to wait a number of years, rather than going to business school immediately following college (although I understand this happens less with B-School), because it gave him the possibility of a business school offer. Do people also think that having health insurance and other benefits are “help”? The business school offer is a benefit, not help.
If you weren’t loaning yourself money for Jenna Cole, I’m guessing you would simply spend your money differently and your business might grow more slowly as a result - I’ve watched a few friends launch photography businesses, and because they don’t have capital to start with, they are growing much more slowly than you are. So I think there might be something to business debt, if it helps you grow faster and you can pay it back relatively quickly - because I think a lot of businesses wouldn’t start without some kind of small business loan, and we need those businesses.
Anyway, I just wanted to tell you that I feel you, and also it’s funny because the things that we think make us lucky (like having really great, supportive parents, or a killer work ethic) are not what other people think make us lucky. It’s funny how that works.
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Emmie Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 1:14 pm
You made such a smart choice. I owe so much for law school that I can’t really do what I want to do with my degree because I have to make x amount of dollars to live.
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I think being debt free is easier for people who have seen healthy finanical practices when they were growing up. Not that people who haven’t experienced this are any worse off, but it’s like someone who has a healthy relationship with food because their parents worked that into the way they raise their child. A child who has experienced healthy money practices is better off than a child who is raised that wants are more important than needs. This is the philosophy that my husband and I work from when we think about our daughter.
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Sophia Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 8:41 am
“I think being debt free is easier for people who have seen healthy finanical practices when they were growing up”
YES. So many people grow up with zero guidance on financial issues.
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Laura Elizabeth Reply:
October 2nd, 2010 at 12:42 am
This is VERY true. I am fortunate to have grown up with parents that understand budgeting, and I was taught from a young age the differences between a need and a want. On the other hand, I watch my friends’ parents and how they spend everything they can, on every credit card they can. It is SO sad because my friends don’t have the first clue about budgeting for necessities (food) over nice perks (DVR, fancy jewelry, etc.) I wish I could get them all to read TW!!!
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I agree with most of what you say, but at the same time, I don’t think debt always has to be a bad word. When I met my husband, I was on a super-no-credit-card kick because I was not very good at paying them off every month. My husband (a business guy, too, with an MBA) showed me that if we pay them off every month, there are certain advantages to using our cards. Same with a home. We will be taking on some debt to buy a home, but it will have great tax advantages for us and we won’t be paying too much more than we pay in rent. So I think the bottom line is being smart about debt, and if you can’t be (like I apparently couldn’t when I was single), recognize that and stick to cash-only.
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25I agree very much with what you have said above. I too have a very strong aversion to debt. Unlike you I feel that the debt incurred to own a home, which is within your means, is an acceptable debt. Yet on the other hand I think most educational debts are unnecessary. I worked hard to get through my undergraduate and graduate degrees without incurring any debt. I think the majority of the debt people incur in college is not from the education but instead from high living expenses. Many people feel it is their right to go to school, without a job and to live off of student loans (or family). I personally feel that working while in college was very beneficial for my future. While my opinion does not apply for everyone, I am happy with my approach.
I think it is very notable that you live debt free! It is a way of life that more people should embrace. I agree 100% with your quote, “Living debt free isn’t about the amount of money you have, it’s the amount of money you spend.” Needs and wants are very much confused in today’s world.
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26I rarely comment here, but I loved this post. I thought you made some incredibly valid points. I think that the lifestyle that you and TH have created is something that you absolutely should brag about. I know almost NO ONE that lives debt free. In today’s society of “gimme” it is a tough, and difficult thing to do and you should be proud. Your thoughts/arguments are well thought out and backed up. I especially loved the part about people who truly have a difficult financial situation reading this blog. Spot on.
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27I haven’t read any of the comments yet, but I want to. I’m really curious why people get so touchy about this topic.
I feel like it’s hard to not sound judgmental when talking about this subject (although you do an admirable job, Jenna). I know sometimes debt is unavoidable, especially when you’re investing in your future. (See: school debt.)I also know that in hard times, you do what you can to survive, even if that means living off of credit cards.
My parents are self-made as well, and they always taught my brother and me the difference between wants and needs. My husband and I are fortunate enough that we are able to indulge in a few wants now and then, but we strive to maintain the same cost of living as we did when he was a student and I was just starting my career. We both WANT a house, but we have done the math and it isn’t feasible right now. My husband has serious debt from medical school, but - in addition to paying it down each month - we’ve been saving everything we can. In fact, we put away my entire paycheck every month. We also pay off our credit cards in full every month, since credit card debt is a nasty creature.
I guess what I’m saying is that I fully, 100% agree with you, Jenna. And I think you and your husband are setting a great example for others and for your son.
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28I think you and TH are doing a great thing by keeping yourselves out of debt, and what a great example for T1. Some people are more fortunate than others, but it’s clear that your family is doing without and not being wasteful, which is something very few can say. We only have a very negligible amount of debt (particularly compared to many in our social circle), though we could be doing much, much better if we cut out some luxuries. I’m working on it, but I have to admit that it’s been difficult at times.
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29Now that I live in the area you lived in in Dallas, I can see why you rented. It’s such a great location, and so expensive to buy! If my husband ended up with a job out here, I think we would consider staying and renting, too! I read that article you linked to, and I agree that in your situation it really really makes sense to rent.
In all honesty though, we probably will buy a house when my husband graduates-mostly because we will have plans to stay put for a long time when he does.
And also because my two-year-old-sans-backyard is driving me nuts.
(I wouldn’t be against renting a house in our next move-I’m just so sick of apartments I could scream… haha!_
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30Great post Jenna. Well said, there IS a difference between WANT and NEED…and most of us don’t know the difference. We think that we “need” things that are really “wants” and most of us don’t know the difference.
Sorry you’re getting attacked. You did a good job of explaining your views…
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31It seems to me part of the problem is the use of the word “help”. I would not consider TH’s transaction with his employer to be “help” any more than I consider employee benefits “help”. TH earns money and benefits, I am guessing, as part of his compensation to work for Company X. So this B-school transaction seems to be to be just that, a transaction. Help, in my opinion, is given with little expectation of repayment and clearly he will repay the B-school debt with future years of employment. For example, one does not incur a specific debt when receiving food stamps so in my opinion that is “help”.
I too am the daughter of a man who worked very hard and went without for the betterment of his children. I don’t feel that I did not earn all I have worked for but I did benefit from my father’s endeavors. I recognize that like a mountain-climber, I had the benefits of walking behind my father making the climb easier while others had to blaze their own trail up the mountain. I don’t think that takes anything away from what I have accomplished because no one climbed the metaphorical mountain for me.
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32Jenna - never apologize for being debt free, or the so-called “help” along the way.
I don’t understand what anyone finds unreasonable about TH’s company paying for b-school - this happens often. I can’t even put my head around how working hard for good grades, to get a good job, to get an offer of further eduction, to stay with that company in the short term - is considered “help”… help to the company, yes!
Living debt free (in almost all cases - there are exceptions, of course) is a choice that we each make. We either make more money or spend less money, it’s an easy equation. Most people I know who are debt free don’t have any secrets - we’ve worked hard, still work hard, and are sensible about how we live.
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33This was a great post. I agree with a previous commenter who said that many people in our generation feel they should live the same way as their parents, but without the years of hard work. I am currently in law school, and by choosing to go to a state school (William & Mary) and earning a scholarship, I will graduate debt-free. My husband and I have cut out lots of luxuries to keep us in the black - we don’t have cable, we rarely eat meat, we rent an old apartment, we drive old cars, and we don’t go on vacation. I feel like if we lived above our means, I would not be at all happy - I would have constant anxiety.
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Evelyn Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:25 am
My husband went there for undergrad and we lived in a dinky apt for our first year of marriage. How much longer are you there? I can point you to the place if you are interested in CHEAP (I can’t say that there will be openings though…).
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Emily L Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 12:46 pm
Aww tribe love!! We will be here for two more years, but we are hoping to stay in the Williamsburg area after I graduate. I really appreciate the offer to refer me to your old apartment, but we already live in a really cheap apartment so we will probably just stay here
It was among the cheapest we could find, but it really isn’t so bad. It’s just outdated!
Thanks again! You are very thoughtful!
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Jackie Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 1:59 pm
Go Tribe!! I went there undergrad.
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This is coming at a perfect time for me. I just got into this with someone who always lives beyond her means and then complains to me about how she is broke and barely getting by. She characterizes wants and needs and it makes me really sad. I really want to forward this to her so she can read it and realize that she needs to make some changes so her children can be well provided for but at this point I am tired of trying to help her.
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Melanie Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 8:57 am
Ugh I meant wants as needs… I really need to proof read better.
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Jenna,
The thought of people attacking you for living debt free is just abhorent.
My husband and I have debt-lots of it. We have car payments and own two houses. We also both have awesome jobs that allow us to maintain our lifestyle. We both go to school on the dime of our company-it’s a benefit that comes with working here, so I neither feel like it’s a hand out or like I should be more loyal to the company because of it. I’ve earned that benefit by earning my position within this company.
I fully intend to delve into your budget strategy and see where my husband and I can improve!! We’ve met with a financial advisor (which I highly, highly recommend to every person so that they may understand how money works) and have better plans for our money, but we’re still not as good as I’d like us to be at saving.
Kuddos to you and your husband for being so responsible. I wish we could all be a little more like you. I also wish that people wouldn’t attack you for sharing your personal choices-every person is different and makes different choices.
I believe every person has the ability to succeed if they want to-they just have to make it happen.
Thank you for being so open and honest about your life. Those of us bystanders really feel like we get to know who you are and even more so, figure out how we can be a little better if she should want to be.
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36My husband and I were both offered a similar deal as your husband, it was a major blessing but we worked very hard to secure the deal and certainly never considered it a handout. It was years of hard work and commitment from the very beginning.
I also believe that in many cases, medical debt can be unavoidable and personally it’s the only form of debt that I’d be ok with. Insurance companies can drop you if you cost too much, refuse to cover pre-existing conditions (and before anyone tells me that it’s illegal, I should state that I work in the health insurance industry and there still are PLENTY of ways for insurance companies to dump the cost on you) and if you don’t have the insurance company negotiating with the medical community on your behalf, the fees that you pay are exorbitant. I know many people that were living debt free and were slammed upside the head with medical problems and their emergency funds were gone in a second, jobs were lost, houses were lost and eventually they had no choice but bankruptcy.
If T1 were to come down with a medical life-threatening condition and the only chance at saving his life was a medical procedure not covered by insurance, you and TH would work night and day to cover the cost. But what happens at the end of the day when it’s not enough and you’re still short? Would you take on the debt, committing yourself to paying it back as soon as humanly possible or would you accept that it wasn’t God’s will and not go through the procedure that would save your child’s life but cost more than you had?
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37Very good article. The only thing I don’t agree with is educational debt. My father went to school debt free and that is after he joined the Air Force so it would be paid for. My mother was blessed enough to have parents who paid for it upfront. Mt parentes were able to pay for my college up front as well, but that is only because they saved money like crazy. Right now, you have ppl that graduate with a loan larger than the salary they make. That is crazy! I work in academia and it is sad to see so many ppl graduate with loans that will take 10-30 yrs to pay off.
I follow Dave Ramsey’s plan and there is no good debt out there period. Debt is debt!! Cash is King! If you can’t pay for it with cash, you don’t need it. If you have a relative or company/foundation that can provide something for you, it’s not a handout, it’s a blessing.
You are right, some things will have to be placed on hold until you have the money saved up to do it.
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Jackie Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 9:54 am
I am going to have to respectfully disagree here. Certain types of education are easier to get paid for in advance, such as business school. But lets say you want to get a Master’s in Social Work. Not very many (if any) non-profits are going to help you pay for that ahead of time!
Educational debt definitely needs to be paid off in a timely manner. But it can also be seen as investment. My husband is in (a small amount of) debt for going to law school, but it will likely garner him a larger salary in the future than if he had not gone. I definitely would prefer for him to go now, before we have kids, and pay it off quickly right after school, than see him work for 10 years and then decide to go back to school when we have babies around!
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Mrs. R Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:35 am
If your school loan is bigger than the salary you will make coming out, that is crazy and not worth it. 20/20 had a special on the current educational loan crisis right now. It is so bad, the government is getting involved (here we go again with government involvement) and they are going to fine schools that have a high percentage of students defaulting on loans.
All in all, it’s a personal choice. I do not think it is the end of the world if you wait to go school when you can afford to go, whether you have kids or not. My father enrolled in college when I was born. He received his Masters when I was in elementary school. It is never to late to receive an education.
If you have to get a school loan because there are no other viable options, do what is best for you. If you pay on this loan for the next 30 yrs, I do not personally think it is a wise decision.
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Erin J. Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 12:56 pm
My husband & I do ok living within our means. We don’t really make that much either… The only thing we have hanging over our heads is my DH’s ridiculous school loans. This was before we met. I have no idea what possessed him to spend so much money on a degree (that he is not even using or ever used) at a private school & is now back in school for something that will hopefully be more useful with what he has been working in for the last 5 years or so.
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Katy Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 12:58 pm
And it’s not the end of the world if you have to go to a slightly-less-expensive college. Or at least for a few years until you can transfer to that school of choice. I think we need to scale back this idea in our HS minds that unless they go to the best college in America, they’ll never make it. That tuition costs be damned - if that’s where you want to go, you have to do it or all is lost.
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Mags Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:43 am
You’re lucky your husband only has a small amount of debt from law school. My law school debt is quite large but it has allowed me to make a larger salary. Unfortunately I don’t see it being paid off in the near future though!
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Mags Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:46 am
I also saw that special and tend to agree with Mrs. R. Oh if only I took that into consideration when I was 21 and signed my life away
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Mrs. R Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:49 am
I will also add the only reason I am so passionate about this is because I have worked in higher education for over 10 yrs and have seen the good and bad side of taking out loans. I am the Asst. Dir over the PhD program and we stress to students all the time not to go into debt. It can make your life a living hell once you graduate. We offer a full assistantship to each student accepted into our program. The money to go to school is out there and I actively help students search for it.
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Sorry for the typos!!
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39I just want to weigh in on all the comments here.
We have a tendency to view our successes as due to internal causes (ie, hard work, making good decisions, etc), and our failures as due to external causes (bad luck, unforeseen circumstances, being laid off).
The problem is, we often do the opposite for other people. If they are successful, its due to external causes (unfair racial advantages, help, luck), and if they fail, its due to internal causes (poor planning, not budgeting).
The truth is, its all a little of both. Am I in debt? Not currently, I worked and now have a grant to go to grad school. Do I count myself lucky that A) the program had enough funding money to send me to school? Absolutely. I had nothing to do with recruiting funding, creating an endowment, anything to do with that. B) that I was born with the mental capacities to pursue a higher education? Yes. Again, I had nothing to do with the genes I inherited.
Do I work hard? Sure. Do I have help? Definitely. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that I automatically deserve this lifestyle and other people don’t. We really can’t judge other people’s financial circumstances unless we know the whole story, whether they are debt free or in debt.
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Ashley Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 4:27 pm
Jackie, this is such a wonderful comment. I couldn’t agree with it more!
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Sophia Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 11:37 am
I totally agree with everything you said.
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I just want to say that (with a one or two exceptions), I really admire the tone of the conversations that are going on in this post. I think it says a lot about you, Jenna, and how you framed the issues.
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41This is a great post Jenna. My husband and I live debt-free, but I struggle with wanting to buy a home when we have children. Like others have said, we grew up in a house and feel like that is what we would like for our children. Also we feel like it is an investment to buy versus to rent even in this economy. Buying a house is a want not a need and I need to understand and believe that. You have really opened my eyes into renting. You should be proud of the great example you set. It’s definitely not the norm in today’s world.
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42I’ll preface this by saying we did a cash buy for our house.
But I also wanted to point out that deciding never to take a loan to buy a house necessarily means that you think it is a bad investment. (Which has turned out to be true for many many people, and may continue to be true well into the future.) But that may not be the case for some people — many people end up with a higher net worth because they borrowed to by a house that went up substantially in value.
(That said, I agree there is nothing necessarily better about buying and that no one NEEDS to buy. But there are good reasons to WANT to buy: settling your family in one place, making a home your own, being able to live in the type of place where rentals aren’t available. So I don’t think any contempt for home-owners is warranted. One can be a fiscally responsible home owner.)
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Katy Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:14 am
Definately shouldn’t be contempt for home owners. If you can and want to, go for it. I’m sure we will buy when we are out of the military and will be in one place for more than 4 years. But we won’t because we need to or because we’re supposed to. And even though we can get a loan 100% financed through GI bills, we plan to still save up a sizable down payment (or all cash would be awesome like you did!). It would be nice to do whatever we want to our house, but I’m learning that until then, we’ll live
I am no expert in real estate - learning as I go - but even I could see the bubble bursting a few years ago. My coworkers were just wide-eyed and excited about buying property like crazy - saying “we’ll make so much money in a few years when we move!” but even my remedial understanding of all this and I remember thinking, “yeah, this isn’t going to go up forever.” Just seemed like common sense to me. My family is of the mindset that buying is always a good investment, always a good choice, but that’s not always true. There are definately fiscally responsible home owners, thousands of them, but what my family seems to not understand is that there is still risk associated with real estate - though being financially responsible greatly pads you against those risks (which some of my family is not!:)
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Jenna, I find this discussion that divides wants and needs very interesting. This recent haircut & dye job, for example (very much a NEED for me
as someone with premature greys 
), I imagine would have otherwise been consider a want for you personally. How did you decide to go ahead and spend the money? Was this a discussion that you and TH had together? I’m just curious as to how the process works in your house given that I imagine that things liked this come from time to time and that lines between wants and needs can be somewhat easily blurred to fit the situation. I know you have personal budgets, but even the question of how much to put into that budget or how you decided is something that interests me.
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Melissa Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 1:43 pm
Sorry to highjack this comment but a dye and color is not a need. A need is something you would die without. Food, clothing, and shelter are all examples of needs. Having nice hair is no where on that list.
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Melissa Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 1:49 pm
Oh and I want to add that this isn’t necessarily directed at your comment, I have just read similar things so many times over the last few days that your comment seemed like the best place to get my feelings off my chest!
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Michelle Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 2:14 pm
Fair enough, but if I work in uber corporate environment where being put together is required for my client facing work does it constitute as a need then if showing up any other way could jeopardize my career? I’m not saying I couldn’t live without it, I’m merely pointing out the fact that living under a budget while striving for a debt free life requires some flexibility. Making smart decisions given the realities of my life is what I strive for (not necessarily living at bare bones at the expense of my career, my relationships) and I was just curious as to how this played out for TW.
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Melissa Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 2:59 pm
Technically your company can’t fire you because you have grey hair. That would be age discrimination (not saying you are old) and is illegal. Again it is not a need. It may be a highly valued want though.
I agree that people need to be flexible and make smart decisions given the realities of their life. I was just concerned that you said hair care is a need. You can say that it is very important to you and you want to spend the money on it but to say it is a need emphasizes the fact that most people can’t distinguish between wants and needs (not directed at you, just a general statement).
I spend money on my hair too, who doesn’t! My only point is that we need to be careful when we say we “need” certain things because most times we don’t.
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Michelle Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 3:30 pm
I guess my original point was that I find what we NEED quite difficult to define and this affects my decision making each month. Even within the category of clothes! I could go to J.Crew and get a dress or I could go to a thrift store and get a $2 shirt and skirt to cover my body. In one case I save a lot more! Budgeting and living a financially responsible life is about setting goals and having a process by which you can make decisions as to how to spend. I’m not worried about definitions but more so about pulling this way of life off carefully!
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Jenna! I love the darker hair, it’s beautiful. (Sorry, I know this comment is for your last post.) Thank you so so much for the maternity photo’s, they turned out perfect. Can’t wait to get the rest of them. And while I am commenting, I wanted to jump in this conversation a little bit! I see a lot of people commenting on the privileges and circumstances that some may have that others don’t, and that’s why some may be able to live a debt free life. I disagree in a way. I grew up in a very well to do family, went to private school, and had my college paid for. Not that I am in any way proud of this at all, (and I plan to go back to school to finish as soon as I can), but I didn’t graduate college, and now we live off of a salary of someone without a college degree. My husband came from a family that moved here from Puerto Rico. They had nothing. Not one single person in his family has ever graduated college. He is now in his 3rd year of medical school. We are pretty close to being debt free as well, (besides his schooling), even though we are living off of my salary- which is not much, and we have no help. Anyway, just wanted to say that you can do anything you put your mind to- even live debt free, even with a poor upbringing and circumstances. Anyway, love ya Jenna, we miss you here in Texas.
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45I understand your frustration Jenna, as someone who has worked very hard to get where I am, letting luck have the credit seems to belittle my efforts.
However, luck has been a big part of it. I was lucky that there were generous donors who funded the scholarships I was awarded in my undergrad, lucky that my previous employer valued higher education enough to fund my graduate school and allow me dedicate working hours each week to studying for my CPA. Regardless of how hard I worked, I would not be where I am without other people’s “help” in providing these things.
Obviously each person that reads this blog has a different connotation for the word “help,” but to say that you’re doing it without “help” can be quite frustrating to someone who is taking on educational debt and struggling to make ends meet in order to make something better of themselves.
My husband works extremely hard and put himself through college 100% on his own without scholarships or parental support. He would be EXTREMELY upset to hear me say that I put myself through college on my own, and I agree. I put myself through college on my own with the “HELP” of scholarships.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that yes, TH is lucky because he has a very generous employer. Other people work just as hard and don’t get the same rewards.
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Hayley Marie Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:17 am
I’m not sure why your husband would be upset about that. I paid for my first year of school through scholarships and thereafter had to work to support myself. I don’t make a distinction between my years when I was “helped” with scholarships and those when I was not.
To me a scholarship is simply payment for working hard in school and my paycheck was payment for working hard in the office.
Either way I had earned that money and it was going toward my education. Does your husband assume that one type of work is greater than another if they both accomplish the same thing??
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Jackie Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:28 am
Lots of people work hard to get through school, but not everyone who works hard gets a scholarship. A scholarship is reflective of hard work, but it is different than wages. Wages are what you are “owed,” a scholarship is a donation, even if you have to work hard to get it.
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Hayley Marie Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:33 am
Maybe in some schools that is true. All I know was that at the college I attended (actually both of the colleges I attended) if you had a GPA above a certain point, you received a scholarship. Thus if I worked a certain amount and received a high enough GPA I would have received a scholarship. The same applied to any student who worked hard enough. I think some of the comments make scholarships sound like they are a popularity test. I think the years that I was on scholarship were harder than the years I was working a typical job.
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Meagan Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:41 am
I would think that schools like yours are the rarity. A large state university in Texas (where I went to school) or Michigan (where my husband went to school) isn’t handing out scholarships to everyone who maintains a certain GPA.
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Stefanie Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:59 am
I second this. This was definitely not available to me and it wasn’t available to my husband. I also do not know of any of my friends who attended different schools who were ever offered anything like this. They may have earned a scholarship upon being accepted into the school and then had to maintain a certain GPA to keep the scholarship…but that was an already established scholarship.
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Meagan Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 10:38 am
You may not make a distinction between those years, but I’ll bet you worked much harder when you had to do it without a scholarship. My freshman year, I was on a full-ride thanks to several 1-year scholarships, so I didn’t have a job and instead focused on my studies. In the years thereafter, I had a part-time job to pay for rent and expenses and it was MUCH more work. I can only imagine how much harder it was for my husband working full-time and going to school full-time to pay for his expenses and school, so saying our situations were equal is a little absurd.
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Hayley Marie Reply:
October 1st, 2010 at 9:26 am
Actually looking back, I’d say I worked harder during the time I was on scholarship than the time that I was working at my job. My job had regular hours that I could plan around and ended at a reasonable time each day… my homework assignments did not. I had to pull more all nighters to stay on my scholarship than I did when I was juggling work and school. I also recall being more stressed about my grades when I was on scholarship which wore me down.
As for my school being a rarity… that is possible. However it might interested you (Stephanie) to know that the year I was on scholarship was spent attending a UC. It was one of the larger state schools in CA and although I did have to have an extremely high GPA to qualify, it was possible. When I transferred to a private university, there was a similar opportunity available to students.
I’m not saying that this is how it is for every student. (I’m really not trying to start an argument) I’m just trying to convey that it does take work to be a full time student. In order to keep my scholarship I had many requirements placed upon me that were no longer in place once I was off scholarship. It wasn’t a cakewalk by any means.
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Kate Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 12:51 pm
Why would it be considered “lucky” that TH has a generous employer?
They chose to employ TH because of his hard work/skills/etc. He chose to take the job (I assume) because the pay and benefits were good and it was something that interested him.
What’s “lucky” about that?
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Meagan Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 1:18 pm
Its true that obviously this MBA program is one of the benefits, similar to a previous employer I had that paid for graduate school (up to a certain point) and allowed CPA study time. However, the firm I’m with now I work equally as hard for and they don’t provide those same benefits. Additionally, I know several financial services firms that have had to drop these types of benefits due to the economic climate. So yes, it is lucky that his employer offers this amazing benefit.
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Kate Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 1:26 pm
Your choosing to work for an employer who offers a different schedule of benefits than your previous employer has nothing to do with luck, nor does the economic climate.
He picked a employer with good benefits and they picked him-that’s not luck! You really can’t say that you’re working for your current employer because you’re not “lucky” enough!
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Meagan Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 1:35 pm
Maybe Lucky isn’t the right word, rather Fortunate. I’m not discounting TH’s hard work at all, because I know how highly competitive his field is and the success it took within that field to even be given the opportunity to be a part of this program. Yes, he made the decision to go with that firm that offered those benefits, but there are other factors at play. My point is that you shouldn’t be ashamed to say “I’m fortunate that I was given this opportunity”
Also, as someone who had benefits yanked out from under them during this recession, I’d say the economic climate has alot to do with it.
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While I am admittedly somewhat jealous of those of you who are living debt-free, as my husband and I have considerable debt, mostly from putting ourselves through college and being on our own since we were 18, I am profoundly insulted by some of this. It seems like those of you who are debt free and work hard at it believe that those of us who are not debt free are this way because 1. we can’t budget or 2. we don’t work hard enough, or both. Which is bull. My husband and I both work 2 jobs, we follow a strict budget, and we don’t spend money on clothes, eating out, home decor, vacations, etc. Our extra money goes towards paying off our debt.
Also, having your parents pay for college is NOT the norm. I work at a very large public (and very affordable) university, doing research on students, and 66% of the students at this institution take out student loans every semester. This is similar to the numbers at our peers institutions, which means that at most public universities, most students are in debt. Period. Their parents don’t pay. Call it what you want, but it’s financial assistance for YOUR education whether it comes from the bank or from mom & dad.
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Katy Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 12:41 pm
We were in a similar boat. My husband was part of the Air Force ROTC in college, so that covered almost all of his expenses (in exchange for signing our life away to them for at least 4 years of course!), but for my tuition and expenses I had a small scholarship, worked part time, and took out student loans. We tried to take out as little as possible and tried not to go crazy with our CC debt, but we graduated with debt.
Our first year of working post college - though we both worked - we lived as if we only had one income because pretty much ALL of my income went to student loan repayment and CC repayment. I made decent money as a first year teacher in CA, but you wouldn’t be able to tell that by the way we lived! But because of that extreme dedication, we paid off all that in a year and half. Then when we had to buy a car b/c the 1991 car finally died, we paid off that car in LESS than a year thanks to one more year of teaching and applying virtually all that paycheck to car payments. As much persistence and sometimes anxiety over the debt we had was something that we had to think about, I don’t regret how everything happened. It might have been great had money fell from the sky or our parents had written us blank checks (like some kids get!) but the lessons we learned putting ourselves through school and dealing with the repayment were argueably more signifcant than the education itself!
Don’t be offended by others if you know that you are doing all you can. What others may be speaking to are people who spend and live with champagne tastes, though they have a beer budget (as my dad always said!) and then claim that they have no idea how to better control their money.
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Wow there are so many comments that I just can’t read them all. But as one who is also debt-free, I completely agree that it’s about choosing how to spend your money.
Sometimes debt cannot be avoided. When you do have an income, how you deal with that debt and how you avoid unnecessary debt (credit card in particular) is the key I think.
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Jenna Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 12:32 pm
We have enough set aside to live for two years with our current lifestyle if TH lost his job. If he did lose his job though, we would probably move somewhere very inexpensive and really cut back on our lifestyle, so he estimates we could live for 4 years.
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Kristin Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 12:41 pm
2-4 years!! Good for you!
Financial advisers recommend planning for 6 months. Way to over-achieve! 
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Katy Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 12:52 pm
Step One: get at least 8 month emergency fund
Step Two: should you need to live on it, you still must scale back considerably
That’s what Suze Orman talks about almost every week - the error of people who when they recieve unemployment or live off their savings during difficult times, still try to maintain their exact current lifestyle. You’ll be much more secure if you reduce your expenses during these times.
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R Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 1:45 pm
I agree with you on the emergency fund wholeheartedly - assuming one’s in the position to do it. For my partner and I, that’s something we maintain individually and when we marry and combine our finances (to a degree - we’re going to have a joint account and separate accounts), our first priority is emergency fund even before house down payment. Depending on where we end up living (I’m an academic and so kind of itinerant - or at least, I have no idea where we’ll be until I actually get a job), we’ll likely buy but what we can sink into a down payment is only after setting aside emergency money. I don’t want to generalize but from (upper-middle class, two-income) coules talk to, it seems like house down payment is made a higher priority than emergency fund. I’d hate to have to deal with owning a house and having to keep paying a mortgage without the emergency fund contingency plan. Even though I’m a grad student, I have enough money saved to live at my current standard of living (which is actually extremely comfortable and I could save more than I do but I’m happy with what I can save and I work too hard to skimp on cable or on nice meals out sometimes) for two years, which I could obviously stretch by ditching the cable, dinners out, new clothes, etc.
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Jenna Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 3:16 pm
Shoot my comment was supposed to go to Christine below. Oh well! Probably seemed weird though
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Kristin Reply:
September 30th, 2010 at 3:22 pm
Way to not keep your comments straight. *teehee*
No worries.
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Maybe I’m just missing something but I don’t see any budgeted amount for emergency fund, retirement savings, insurance, travel, or rainy day goals (like buying a car, or a house, or other things you can save for to maintain a debt free lifestyle long-term). Are some of these covered by outside sources so they’re just not documented? Or are you not saving for them? If you’re looking for a wealth of personal finance/living debt free ideas and information, visit thesimpledollar.com. The blog is great, and he does “mailbag” and book reviews and other really useful posts.
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49Wow. such interesting discussions!
All I know, is what works for me and my family.
We have debt, and we are working to get out of debt. We do not under any circumstances, barring the extremely neccessary (read: hospital bills) incur new debt. We have one credit card, that we never,ever use. It is for emergencies.
The end.
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