05 Jun
Will You All Eventually Join The Mormons?
This week I asked on Twitter if anyone had any questions that would make a good Sunday post, and I liked what Anita wrote best because it’s such an interesting question.
I promised myself this wouldn’t be a novel of a post, so here goes!
Do we think that everyone is LDS, somehow without knowing it? Of course not! To be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints you have to be baptized, and we do a full dunk under the water so you most certainly would know if it happened to you. 
This misinformation could have developed because we believe that God’s way is very exact, and that when Jesus Christ lived on the earth He organized God’s one and only church. Over time, the authority of that church was diluted and the full truth was lost. Bits and pieces stuck around, but some of it was changed. Joseph Smith is so significant for us because he restored that whole truth back to the earth. That is why you will commonly hear us say that the LDS Church is the true Church of God upon the earth.
Eventually, everyone who has ever lived will know who Jesus Christ is and acknowledge his power and all will have an equal opportunity to choose God’s way. No one is ever forced to choose what they don’t believe in, God leaves it up to us.
So, will everyone eventually become LDS? Everyone will eventually recognize Jesus Christ as the Savior of the World, because I think when He is standing right in front of you in all of His glory and power it will be impossible to deny it. Everyone will eventually be a Christian, per se. But as for right now, we don’t think everyone is LDS, nor will they really ever be during this life.
I'm a farm-raised almost-crunchy stroller-pushing picture-taking lifestyle-blog-writing gastronomy-obsessed divine-seeking thrift-store-combing cheese-inhaling pavement-pounding laughter-sprinkling lover of individuality and taking chances.
I think you have explained this really well. I think people misinterpret the LDS approach as being arrogant when in fact it isn’t that different to any other strain of Christianity in that it primarily aims for all people to be believers in Christ as their saviour. It’s a different approach, of course, but the fundamental theme is still the same from what I can tell.
It should be noted that I am Jewish. I don’t take the above personally, I think it is just another path of belief. I know that my Baptist grandmother (my dad was an Atheist for twenty years before finding faith through Judaism) prays that I’ll become a Christian so she can see me in her Heaven. She respects our beliefs but wishes that we shared the ones that she feels are the ‘true’ path, if that makes sense. I don’t get offended, I just know that in her eyes she is praying for what she believes is the best outcome for us.
I hope you don’t take offense to the above, Jenna, I guess my point is that people jump to conclusions of arrogance without properly listening to where Mormons are coming from.
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Anni Reply:
June 5th, 2011 at 9:21 am
Hannah, I agree completely. My family also has a different belief system than I do, and I know that means that they think if my beliefs don’t change I’ll go to hell. It’s really tough to deal with sometimes - more because of the pressure we get because of it - but as long as everyone is respectful it works.
I think Mormonism gets a bad rap that just doesn’t make sense, probably simply because except for in a few states, it’s kind of a minority religion? Jenna, I’ve really loved reading your posts on it, and the truth claims are really not that different from most mainstream Christian religions. I think the unfamiliar just scares people at times.
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Sophia Reply:
June 5th, 2011 at 10:00 am
I have a theory on why Mormonism gets a bad rap, and this is just my musings and is not any kind of finger pointing thing… The loudest, and most vehement anti-Mormon people I have ever known/read about/researched have been evangelical Christians- there are so many anti-Mormon researchers in this group, and there are an extraordinary amount of websites and groups, run by various mainstream Christian faiths, that are out to “save” people from Mormonism, and preach the “truth about Mormonism”. With Islam or Judaism, they might just say “nope, they’re wrong because they don’t have Jesus” end of story, but with Mormonism it is a lot, and I mean a lot, of effort and time spent into “debunking”. I’m not trying to say *every evangelical Christian* thinks that, but for the most part a lot of mainstream Christian religions do not respect Mormonism (and sometimes Catholicism) as “true Christianity”. I think it’s because most (again,not all!) mainstream Christianity preaches “our way is correct, if you don’t believe in Jesus, you’re going to go to hell”. So, they’re used to having the corner on the truth market, so to speak. When the Mormon church comes along and says “oh, actually, we’re the only true church and have been given priesthood authority directly from God” I think it puts mainstream Christians in the peculiar position of having to “swallow some of their own medicine”, as it were, when it comes to preaching on who is right and who is wrong. Mainstream Christians are used to being able to say “we have the only truth, in Jesus Christ, and that’s that, everyone else is wrong” (again, I have to make the caveat, not ALL Christians think that, however, the official teaching of almost all mainstream Christian religion is that one must believe in Jesus Christ to get to heaven). You mentioned that the truth claims are really not that different from most mainstream Christian religions, and up to a point, they are- but then it branches off and kind of turns to the rest of mainstream religions and says “we’re the only true Christian church”-which is a perfectly fine claim to make, I’m not judging making that claim, at all- but I think this is precisely where the problem comes in with the friction between mainstream Christianity and Mormonism.
Anyway, I sincerely hope that makes sense, and please liberally apply my caveats. I think that’s why Jewish people, and Buddhists, and Muslims, and Hindus, etc. tend to not really take personally the Mormon statement “we have the only true Church” because it doesn’t really apply to their faith scheme of reference. However, many mainstream Christian faiths take such proclamations VERY personally, because I imagine it can feel like someone is trying to take something away from them, something they’re using to having, which is the ability to say “we’re the true path”. Mormonism kind of comes along and one-ups that, in a theological sense. So many of the anti-Mormon comments sound so… defensive, I guess is the word, whereas when, say, Islamic faith is mentioned it’s more of an “oh, well of course they’re wrong, moving on…” kind of approach.
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jessicamaylords Reply:
June 5th, 2011 at 1:11 pm
I think Sophia is absolutely right, I see the most anti-Mormon sentiments coming from mainline Christians (and I am one!). Most of the family on my husband’s side is LDS, and even though we AREN’T LDS, I see nothing wrong with the religion (except that they think we’re wrong… but that’s just because I don’t like anyone trying to saying their the one true church. Just a personal preference for me).
I can get a bit up in arms when mainline Christians say that the LDS church is not Christian. Although I do think some of the doctrines are a bit wacky at times, I think that ALL religions are wacky at times. It’s hard to believe ANYTHING if you pick it all apart. Faith has to fill in the gaps with any religion, I think.
From the many times we’ve gone to LDS meetings, funerals, baptisms and blessings, I can say for sure that they are Christians. They believe in Christ, in his life, death, and resurrection, and in the life to come. They more than any other Christian sect believe in the “Church Universal” (as far as the “living and the dead” being members of the same church, just on different sides of life). They do ‘work’ for the dead, believing that the work they do here on earth has a profound effect on the dead.
While I’m a mainstream Christian, theologically I define myself as an Inclusivist, meaning that I believe that all those who search for God will find Him in some way or another. Like the Mormons, I may not believe that they have the WHOLE truth, but I do think that God does a really good job injecting HIS truth into our lives, and even other religions. I think we’ll get to heaven and be amazed at WHAT and WHO we find there.
One of my closest friends is LDS, and we talked about heaven once… she said I had more faith than most people she knew. I told her that she committed her life to her beliefs more than most people I knew. She was more on the works side of her belief in God, and I was more on the faith side. I said, “I have no doubt that I’ll see you in heaven.” She said, “I have no doubt that I will see you in the heaven either, and when we get there, I’ll help you with the ordinances and endowments.”
I think if the LDS church becomes more vocal about being part of the Christian church, and not trying to be as separate (us v. them), then the mainstream Christians will be willing to see them as brothers and sisters.
But then again, I’m an Inclusivist.
One interesting tidbit: when speaking of eschatology (end times, heaven and hell sort of stuff), my beliefs are much closer to the Mormon church than many mainstream Christian churches. I don’t think Hell is conscious, eternal punishment. When we are faced with God’s glory, righteousness, and perfect love, I think it will be almost impossible, no matter your religious background, to say anything other than, “Father, I’m coming home.”
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Anni Reply:
June 5th, 2011 at 2:50 pm
I agree with both of you. Sophia, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that mainstream Christianity is used to trying to debunk/save. I grew up in the Lutheran faith, and went to a parochial middle school. I remember in our 8th grade “other faiths” curriculum, they really tried to dumb down Mormonism and make it seem very extremist and absurd. It was NOT a comprehensive teaching, they just mocked what was different. At some point you kind of have to think, “come on, guys, you believe that a virgin gave birth and the world is 10,000 years old - surely you’re not suggesting that just because something doesn’t abide by the laws of physics and your cultural upbringing it’s absurd?” But this is also the same school that taught us that atheists can’t be moral and that mainstream Protestants are persecuted and shunned in the modern-day U.S for their beliefs. I’m not denying that it might happen once in awhile, and certainly anyone with extremely different beliefs from the mainstream will face adversity sometimes. But I’m willing to bet that happens much more often when you’re not in the majority.
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Sophia Reply:
June 5th, 2011 at 4:18 pm
Anni, I agree that mocking a religion for “strange” beliefs is pretty strange in and of itself, because as you said, all religions have some strange elements that are taken on faith. Trying to refute a religious principle by saying “it’s so… weird!” is not a very sound argument when, from an objective standpoint, religions of all types can get pretty weird from an outside point of view
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Sophia Reply:
June 5th, 2011 at 4:15 pm
Jessica, I love everything about your comment, especially this “While I’m a mainstream Christian, theologically I define myself as an Inclusivist, meaning that I believe that all those who search for God will find Him in some way or another. Like the Mormons, I may not believe that they have the WHOLE truth, but I do think that God does a really good job injecting HIS truth into our lives, and even other religions. I think we’ll get to heaven and be amazed at WHAT and WHO we find there.”
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jessicamaylords Reply:
June 5th, 2011 at 5:25 pm
Internet hug! Everyone’s invited!
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Fascinating post, Jenna! This was very interesting. Another Jewish person here
I find all religious discussion very interesting and moving. For me, it gives me peace to know that an individual is deeply committed to their faith, whatever tradition fits them best. I know you are definitely one of those people, so that makes me happy.
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Life of a Doctor's Wife Reply:
June 5th, 2011 at 9:38 am
I totally agree with Rachel. There is something incredibly moving and inspirational about your devotion, Jenna. And I love that you are so willing to discuss your beliefs.
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This is interesting. Thanks for sharing!
I do strongly disagree that the original church was “lost.” I believe Jesus began his church on earth with Peter and Peter established the Catholic Church which has had an unbroken chain of succession since Jesus. It is so incredibly moving to me that Jesus gave Peter communion, he gave it to other followers who gave it to others, and there exists an unbroken chain of priests passing down the body of Christ. To me, it’s simply amazing that the man who will hand me communion in an hour (I need to finish getting ready for Mass!) will have taken it from someone who has taken it from someone on and on on who has taken it from Christ himself. There is a saying in the Catholic Church that our Church was founded by Christ, every other church was founded by a disagreement. To me, that’s very important. It’s what keeps me in the Church even when I have doubts/disagreements. It is the Church founded by Christ.
I think the idea of the “Great Apostasy” is interesting and have tried to do some research on it but haven’t really founded much. It sounds like the LDS church is fairly vague on the details? I was a religion major in college and focused a lot on Early Christianity and it’s not something that ever came up. (It was a public school - no Catholic bent on it or anything!) Have you ever done a post on it? I’d be curious to learn more.
I do believe Jesus when he said “I am with you always, to the end of the age.” And that when the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost, those events were part of establishing a Church - Christ’s body on earth. And so that’s why I don’t believe that anything was lost since. I believe we, as part of the universal Church, are Christ’s body, and living in communion with the millions of people who have also followed Him since he was born, died, and was resurrected 2000 years ago.
Thanks for letting me share my beliefs!
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Brianna Reply:
June 5th, 2011 at 12:21 pm
I too should be getting ready for mass! So off to do that soon- but I wanted to mention that I’ve been studying the early church lately. I’m not as familiar with Peter as I am with Paul, but from what I’ve read, the succession amongst the early church leaders was messy, and didn’t exactly go from Peter to A to B to C, etc. So I interpret the papal succession starting with Jesus to Peter and then onward as more of symbolic thing, rather than a literal thing-a church founded with Jesus, entrusted to Peter, and lasting from then as a fairly unified body, with a few times/exceptions that we overcame- since Jesus’ time.
But that’s just me being nit-picky. Overall, I am with you in that I find that the idea that the Catholic church has been the “standard-bearer” of Christianity since Jesus to be a very powerful concept in my personal faith. That bond with the early church is a beautiful one to me.
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jessicamaylords Reply:
June 5th, 2011 at 1:16 pm
As a person that didn’t grow up with the idea of the “Keys of the Kingdom” being handed down physically, I find this kind of confusing. I suppose that I have always just believed in the “Priesthood of all believers”, male and female. When Christ sent his Spirit, it was to be for all believers, so that all have the power to give communion, to intercede for one another, and to baptize each other in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I think the idea of any sort of succession is a mostly Mormon/Catholic idea, and not one that has been seen as necessary in most Christian churches.
But then again, I’m a non-denominational girl who has attended Baptist, Evangelical, Emergent, Nazarene, and now Episcopal churches.
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jessicamaylords Reply:
June 5th, 2011 at 1:17 pm
I should also say, based on the idea of authority and succession, when my sister-in-law was questioning the LDS church and speaking to her bishop about her doubts, the only other church she would consider as true was the Catholic church, because they are the two churches that put an emphasis on authority and succession being passed down, instead of given as a gift to all believers.
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Stephanie C Reply:
June 5th, 2011 at 9:17 pm
Just wanted to throw it out there.. don’t forget about the Orthodox Church! Though we have our differences, I have much respect for Catholicism and many of our beliefs and traditions come from the same place.
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Jackie Reply:
June 5th, 2011 at 1:30 pm
The Catholic interpretation of authority/succession is different than the LDS one. We agree that the Holy Spirit is for all believers (I don’t know the LDS position on this - do people who are Christian but not LDS have the Holy Spirit?) We also recognize all trinitarian baptisms (those done in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.) The idea of succession in the Catholic sense isn’t so much “we only have the right knowledge” but just “this is literally the Church Jesus founded.”
I do agree that succession isn’t emphasized in other churches, and I think that’s because most have their roots in the Reformation, so its hard to argue direct succession from the early church. (Although some Protestant churches do argue that they are the true original church.)
I think the LDS idea of authority is based on the idea that God gave their church special knowledge and thus they have authority. The Catholic Church’s based on being the historical early church. It was (more or less) the only Church for one thousand years until split with the Eastern churches. Christ tells us that the Church is his body on earth. So during the reformation when groups formed new churches, the Catholic Church saw these groups as willfully leaving Christ’s body. Now there is a different understanding - that all believers despite denomination are truly followers of Christ, but we are not in full communion. Which is what I think God wants - us to not be divided by argument, but to come together to worship him.
Jenna I’m totally post-jacking. I apologize. I find this really interesting though!
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Hailey Reply:
June 6th, 2011 at 12:07 am
I’m enjoying this post, can I add an LDS perspective to clarify some holes in the discussion? The LDS idea of authority is not that God gave us ‘special knowledge’ that nobody else has. The LDS notion of authority is actually very similar to the Catholic notion of authority - that we are Christ’s one true church because we have the literal Priesthood authority that we can trace directly back to Peter. So the beautiful doctrine that you mentioned above (that you enjoy Communion knowing that the person giving it to you got the authority from someone else who got it from someone else in an unbroken chain all the way back to Peter and Christ) is actually exactly the same principle as the LDS church holds dear. I like that our two Christian sects share this in common. I take the Sacrament every week knowing that the priest who blessed it was given the Priesthood by someone who already had the Priesthood, who got it from someone else, in an unbroken chain all the way back to Joseph Smith, who we believe had the Priesthood bestowed upon him by the Apostle John, who of course received it from Christ mortally.
So, obviously we differ somewhere. Both Catholics and Latter-Day Saints believe that during Christ’s mortal ministry, He set up His church. After Christ’s death, Catholics believe that Christ’s church and authority continued in an unbroken chain to our day, whereas the LDS believe in the Great Apostasy, where the martyrdom of all Apostles but John brought Apostolic succession to an end. The LDS believe that John visited Joseph Smith and restored the keys of the Priesthood and Christ’s church, and restored the structure of Christ’s church with a prophet and apostles and so on. So, Catholics believe that they have Christ’s authority because they believe there was no apostasy and the chain of authority from the mortal Christ to today is unbroken. LDS believe they have Christ’s authority because there was a Great Apostasy where Apostolic succession ceased and so Christ’s Priesthood authority was no longer on the earth for a time, until it was restored to Joseph Smith by one of the Apostles from Christ’s original church - so that is how we trace our authority back to Christ. To me, both the Catholic and LDS beliefs on this subject make very logical sense, and the truthfulness of each claim hinges on whether or not there was a Great Apostasy. I’m not here to debate the latter, but I guess I just wanted to point out how logical the core beliefs of both religions are.
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Sophia Reply:
June 5th, 2011 at 4:23 pm
Jackie I just wanted to let you know that, like Jenna, you express your faith really eloquently and beautifully. I always enjoy reading your comments on these religious threads.
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Marissa C Reply:
June 5th, 2011 at 6:42 pm
I enjoy reading them too!
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I am packing up and preparing for Washington today and tomorrow but I wanted to let you all know that I’m really enjoying your comments so far and hope to be able to respond to some of them soon!
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4This is an interesting idea, and in a way, is similar to the Catholic church’s teaching on it. (I’m Catholic.) Catholic means universal, after all-the idea is that the Christian churches will all (eventually) be reunited with the original- ” holy, Catholic, apostolic”- church on Earth. And currently, there is some work being done by the Catholic church to end disagreements and unify the church as one. Point being that the Catholic church- as with other denominations, including LDS- see themselves as the true Christian church holding to Jesus’ original message, etc. We just see the path to ending disagreement to be a 2-fold strategy: evangelize and bring others to the Catholic church (the Welcome Home campaign is an example of it), and top-level discussions with the leaders of other Christian churches (as has been taking place on specific theological areas of disagreement with Presbyterian leaders and leaders of the Orthodox church).
I was going to say that the difference seems to be that the Catholic church does not believe that all people will know Christ eventually… but this isn’t an area of theology I’m particularly familiar with so I could be wrong.
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Jackie Reply:
June 5th, 2011 at 1:19 pm
I think the Church’s position is that we don’t really know what will happen/how it will happen. I remember hearing a homily by a deacon on this topic. It was amazing. He talked about how Christ is the only way to heaven, but we don’t know if that means you have to “accept him as your personal Lord and savior” before you die, or if (in the example the deacon gave) a Buddhist Monk who had never heard of Jesus could die, meet him and realize “this is the God I have been drawing near to my whole life.” I don’t think it is as a formalized concept as LDS have.
I do know that unlike some evangelical churches, the Catholic church does not believe that people who die without ever having heard of God or Jesus go to hell. Overall we believe God is just, merciful and compassionate and that salvation is a mystery.
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This is a wonderful way of describing this.
Some Mormons, my in-laws included, do believe that everyone must receive their “work” done in an LDS temple, baptized etc. before they can choose their way to Christ.
I have adopted a more personal view that the temple work is very symbolic of us trying to work toward Christ, and that while the work is important, God will provide a way for all of his children to come back to him that isn’t dependent on a specific group of believers. Especially when there are so many good people out there.
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jessicamaylords Reply:
June 5th, 2011 at 1:29 pm
Here, here! “God will provide a way for all of his children to come back to him that isn’t dependent on a specific group of believers. Especially when there are so many good people out there.” I agree emphatically, Natalie.
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Sophia Reply:
June 5th, 2011 at 4:21 pm
I heartily agree as well!
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Hannah Reply:
June 5th, 2011 at 4:29 pm
I was just going to mention that, Natalie! It seems that a lot of the misunderstanding of “everyone will be Mormon” is a misunderstanding about the work done in the temple! I’ve talked to non-members about the temple, and when I explain that we “perform work for the dead” for those who didn’t receive the gospel in this life, often they express some kind of concern that we are forcing our religion upon others! Rather, the work done in the temple will be done for every single soul but only to guarantee each individual an OPPORTUNITY to follow Christ!
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Wow. What a great comment thread. I really love the civil discussions on religion that can happen on Jenna’s blog. Thanks everyone!
I did get a bit of a chuckle thinking that one of her shorter posts has prompted such long comments. Yeah, I think weird things are funny.
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