Yesterday I accomplished almost nothing on my overwhelming to-do list, but instead of staying up all night in an attempt to remedy a days worth of procrastination like I usually do, I went to bed early and woke up this morning feeling renewed and ready to tackle the day. I refreshed my inbox to find an email from a reader that had a question, or maybe plea, that I have heard before. The underlying tone said to me, “Please find a way to convince me your husband is not a jerk.”
Why would she think this? Because she is a wonderfully astute dedicated reader who has likely picked up on some very bold statements I have made in the past. One concerned my weight, the other my spending, and both sounded something like “My husband told me he wanted me to change this thing about myself and that I had no chance at a relationship with him unless I did so.”
When we were still dating we used to spend hours in the car together, driving back and forth to SLC for a class twice a week, and on one of those drives we talked about my weight. He admitted that he would not have wanted to date me if I still weighed 198 lbs (my highest weight, which I was sitting at the very first time we remember meeting in 2006). You sent some flack his way when I admitted that one and I just let it slide under the rug.
Then, last week I alluded to his so-called domineering tendencies once again when I talked about budgeting and wrote that reigning in my spending habits was a pre-requisite to marriage. Debt = no deal in his ledger.
This isn’t the first time his guidelines have been questioned. We actually spent most of our dating relationship long distance while he was working in Dallas and I was still going to school, and he would often call me at the end of his long day while I was watching my favorite guilty pleasures with my favorite girls. He expressed concern for the kind of shows I was watching and let me know that he expected to have certain standards set forth in his future household. I sold all 10 seasons of Friends and my two seasons of Grey’s Anatomy on DVD because he stated his principles, and I decided to align with them. In moments of weakness I’ve tuned in to one or two episodes of what used to be my all-time favorite show (“The One With The Late Thanksgiving” anyone?) but for the most part I have held strong. For various reasons related to our personal standards we have stopped viewing many of our favorite shows including (but most certainly not limited to) Friends, Grey’s Anatomy, House, Bones, and many others which I fall in love with and then proceed to painstakingly eliminate. Although it really isn’t that hard to limit consumption of popular shows in this house since we don’t have a signal on our tv.
You hear of examples like this and you want to know why an intelligent able-bodied woman like myself would let such a tyrant rule over her. Am I right?
My dad and I had this same conversation once, when discussing my relationship in context with another we are both familiar with. In reference to finances, I asked my dad if he saw my husband as domineering, as we believed the other man to be in his relationship with his SO. My dad took a moment to carefully consider, as he always does (getting answers to the question “Can I go over to so-and-so’s house?” in high school was always painfully slow), and then said no. “That Husband isn’t oppressive, he’s principled. He has a certain standard for his life and he isn’t going to let that slide for anyone.”
My dad nailed it with his observation, and I thanked him for teaching me well when I was younger. He spent a lot of time drilling into our minds the phrase “Don’t marry a man expecting to change him.” I came into this relationship knowing I had to discover as much about TH as I possibly could, and then consciously evaluated whether I felt prepared to live with his ideals. When he popped the question I said yes because I believed that every change he had asked me to make so far had been for my own good, and/or the good of our relationship.
Why did TH tell me no marriage unless you are debt free? Because he doesn’t want to work until he is 75 years old. And he had to see a change in my habits before we said “I do”, otherwise he knew the likelihood that he would be hobbling to work with a cane in hand was high.
The media consumption standard? Because he doesn’t like what it does for his thoughts (and I agree, my thoughts are much “cleaner” when I exercise caution about what I view), doesn’t like how often we let our standards relax over time if we let ourselves justify viewing certain things, and he doesn’t like when parents set a double standard by telling their kids “I can watch this, but you can’t.” I can’t say I disagree with any of those.
The “I don’t want you to be overweight” thing? Because as he has told me many times, he wants to die first. He wants me to be in the best physical shape possible so I will live longer so he doesn’t have to live without me for a single moment. If that doesn’t say “I love you”, then I don’t know what does.
As the reader who emailed me suggested, the easiest way to convince you that our relationship is indeed a balance of mutual sacrifice would be to tell you more frank and intimate details about the man I am married to. To reveal the standards I have set for him in our marriage, and the standards I told him he had to live up to before we could marry. I assure you those standards exist, and they are things we will continue to work on together throughout our lives, but this is a blog about me and my life not he and his. I put myself out there because I am an extroverted attention loving fool. He is an introverted hermit who would prefer not to have the majority of his life splashed across the ‘net without abandon. But he can see what blogging does for me, the way it allows me to form lasting friendships with a diverse range of people, and that now that I have had a taste of this public life I would never be happy going back, and so he gives me the go ahead to keep writing quite openly. Yes I have the freedom to write whatever I desire, he really can’t stop me from doing so, but I adhere to his guidelines because my marriage is absolutely the most important thing to me. And a happy marriage is made up of those little compromises that allow you to show your spouse how much you care.
It is likely that some of you will continue to pity me because you believe I am in a patriarchal oppressive relationship and that my belief system may or may not be preventing me from realizing that. I could spill all of my husbands secrets, air out his dirty laundry and expose his faults, and explicitly detail the changes he had to make to marry me, not just I him, thereby gaining your lasting approval and a place card at the 21st century free thinking independent women’s table. But I would likely sacrifice the health of my marriage in the process, and your praise is not worth poverty of marriage. So I will continue to be honest in a very one sided manner. I will write candidly about both my triumphs and failures, for I believe that this is the kind of franknesses you have come to expect from me, but you will only hear glowing praises concerning my husband. No detailed transcripts of our screaming matches (which we actually don’t have, but wouldn’t it be juicy if we did?) or of my (daily) frustrations with him. When you come here and read what I write, you will only hear me speak of him with support in my voice and praise shining in my eyes. If you still doubt the status of my relationship know this: there isn’t a night that goes by where you won’t find me on my knees, head bowed in prayer, thanking God for blessing me with this husband of mine.
There isn’t anyone out there who could make me happier.
August 11th, 2009 on 10:35 am
<3
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Ashley Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
You are describing an abusive relationship. Your husband is controlling you, and this is NOT OKAY.
http://www.stanford.edu/group/svab/relationships.shtml
http://www.stoprelationshipabuse.org/signs.html
There is help available.
I think it is very wrong that you are using this very public platform to advocate that it is OKAY TO BE ABUSED. Women read this, Jenna, and they see how you rationalize your husband’s controlling behavior, and then it becomes internalized- “he only controls what I eat because he loves me” “I gave up what makes me happy [your tv shows] because they weren’t good anyways…” Please think about how your actions are affecting others.
Love means loving the other person’s flaws, as well. If your husband does not love you THE WAY YOU ARE, then HE DOES NOT LOVE YOU. He absolutely does not love you. He may say he does, you may think he does, but if he is insisting that you change in order to be with him, that IS NOT LOVE.
Quite frankly, I’m very, very glad that you are getting emails from women saying that your husband is a jerk. I’m glad that other women are capable and intelligent enough to read between the lines of your blog. You try to paint your husband in the best possible light, and STILL his controlling tendencies come through. People reading this: Please think, if Jenna tries so hard to make her husband seem lovable, what on earth must he REALLY be like?
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TH Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 5:38 pm
Wow. I normally would just disregard this comment, but it is so misinformative that I just have to say something.
If what you are saying is true Ashley, then almost all relationships are abusive *both ways*. Let me be the first person to speak up for abused husbands, who have to stop smoking or drinking, give up basketball to spend more time with their wives, and who knows what else?
On a more serious note, a relationship in which you can’t fathom changing for the person you love is a sad relationship. I won’t tell you all the changes I have made for TW, but there were some very signficant ones. And I actually feel happier having made those changes, even if that’s now labeled “abuse.”
There is such a thing as an abusive relationship, but there is great danger in overdiagnosing as you are doing. You essentially trivializing the experiences of women who really are abused, both physically and emotionally. If you look at the other comments in this forum, many of them talk about changes that people made for their spouses. And if we call all their relationships abusive, the one or two people who really are abused may think they are the same as everyone else. So I think you have good intentions, but you may be doing more damage than good.
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Ellie Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 7:02 pm
I work with abused women and truthfully, I’m not sure that I would describe this relationship as abusive, knowing what limited things I do about it. To say I was not somewhat offended by Jenna’s honesty about TH’s feelings about her weight or her finances would be wrong; but I was able to look at her statements, as well as this post, and consider: that is not what I would want, but I am not everyone, and I cannot speak for another person.
Jenna has a different relationship than I do. (Jenna, I’m gonna go ahead and assume a whole bunch of stuff here based on stuff you’ve said in the past. Please let me know if I’m incorrect or offensive, I don’t intend to be.)
Jenna and TH have made a decision about their household that he will be the main breadwinner and she will perform more of the domestic tasks (as well as being an awesome photographer.) This leads to a situation in which finances are combined and both spouses are responsible for responsible spending habits.
Women who spend their husband’s money recklessly or selfishly often do it to economically abuse their spouses; the same way that men who control their wife’s finances, put them on allowances, do not allow them to have a separate bank account or any money of their own are economically abusing their wives. When finances are combined, it opens people up to complications, abuse, and fights. It is entirely reasonable for a couple to make a decision about finances, or any other lifestyle habits; and if one person expects more, the other one often has to meet that standard. (My fiance is neater than me. So I have changed my habits and generally put my clothes in the hamper and do my dishes within 24 hours. I don’t think this is abuse.)
Everyone is different. I probably wouldn’t make the same choices Jenna has made. (Give up all ten seasons of Friends? Um. No.) Jenna and TH, while I have wondered about your relationship and the dynamic, at the end of the day, you seem to be really happy in your marriage, you work very hard at it, and I think the difference between a healthy relationship and an abusive relationship is how TH would react if you ever told him you didn’t want to do things his way, especially now that you’re married, and can’t just break up. However, this is none of my business, and I’m sure as an independent, freethinking woman, you know that there is help if you need it.
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Kelli Nicole Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 11:13 pm
Well, I know TH personally and he is NOT abusive. At all. He is extremely thoughtful and sweet and caring. He was willing to drive 3 hours one-way to pick me up from the airport for Jenna’s sister’s wedding when it looked like I might have to be re-routed. He carries things around for her and is always looking out for her and making sure she’s comfortable and happy. I’ve seen the way he looks at her. I’ve stayed with them overnight and I’ve never seen anything that even looks remotely like abuse. Believe me, after knowing Jenna for 6 years, she is not the type of woman to be pushed around. Why is it that we can’t help others to be better? We believe in being the best we can be and we should all be with people who want to HELP us be better, not be complacent with our weakness. Is it really better to allow or even push people to stay the same and not improve ourselves? To not break bad habits? I would never in a million years want to be with someone who didn’t push me to be a better person. For me, this life is not about remaining in a static state. I WANT to be better and I WANT to be with someone who helps me become that way.
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Jenna Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 11:21 pm
Come stay overnight again! And bring your boy this time so we can make fro-yo and have a sleepover!
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Kelli Nicole Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 11:23 pm
Haha, I’m planning on it the next month or 2
. I’ll have to figure it out when this month of traveling is over.
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MrsW Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 8:35 am
I don’t understand how you can assume that you are more intelligent than all of us at “reading between the lines” when Jenna just flat out said that she purposefully withholds information about TH from us? You’ve only got one part of the elephant, to quote the old story, so calm down or at least take your vitriol elsewhere.
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Kristin Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 9:02 am
“Love means loving the other person’s flaws, as well. If your husband does not love you THE WAY YOU ARE, then HE DOES NOT LOVE YOU.”
So if I’m an alcoholic, druggie, who prostitutes herself and my husband makes me change those things…he doesn’t love me. He should let me do whatever I want, and endanger my life and the lives of others. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Great logic.
“As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another” Proverbs 27:17
Marriage is a partnership. We are supposed to grow better with one another.
Heaven forbid we stop improving ourselves after we get married.
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Ashley (not the OP) Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 10:18 am
There’s a big difference between Friends and Greys Anatomy DVDs and red shoes and red lipstick, and alcoholic druggie prostitutes.
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TH Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 10:57 am
You’re right in that the two are completely different. I think what Kristin is trying to point out the flaw in your principle of “if he does not love you the way you are he does not love you.”
But more interestingly, as Kristin found in another comment, isn’t this post about you?: https://thatwifeblog.com/2009/03/ashley-is-my-new-troll/
Staying busy I see.
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Meghan Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 10:57 am
To Ashley (not OP): If I remember the post(s) you’re referring to, Jenna stated that TH does not like it when she wears red heels to church and that he also did not like the red lipstick she wore at her sister’s wedding. There is a big difference between him not liking something and him telling her not to do something. Notice in both cases she did the thing he didn’t like anyway?
My husband hates it when I wear lipstick at all, refuses to kiss me even. Sometimes I wear it for me and sometimes I don’t for him. If you think that’s abuse, your knowledge of abuse is limited to “After School Specials”
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Kathryn Speyer Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
When I first read Jenna’s post my immediate gut reaction to TH’s “limits” was, “Wow, that wouldn’t be OK with ME.” The idea of someone making decisions FOR me doesn’t sit right. But, one of my life tenets is “different strokes for different folks,” so I sat down and had a think.
I would like to add a few points that I think some people, particularly those in the vocal minority are obviously overlooking because they are reacting instinctively to something that wouldn’t work for THEM.
FIRST: Controlling does not equal abusive. Domineering does not equal abusive. Jerk doesn’t even equal abusive. There are many levels and types of abuse, it’s true, but generalizing demeans the experience of those who have been truly abused.
SECOND AND MOST IMPORTANTLY: You MUST consider the issue of consent. Jenna and TH are adults and they have made a CONSENTUAL decision about the type of relationship that works for them. This type of relationship makes them happy. They find it helpful. It works for them. Nothing is happening that is NOT OK with either party. Consent. Consent. Consent.
Please allow me to draw a parallel that may make some of you uncomfortable. There are many, many relationships in this world that do NOT follow strictly speaking “normal” guidelines. Because they break the heteronormative rules does NOT mean that they are wrong for the people who have chosen them, or that they are abusive.
There are many types of relationships with dominant/submissive overtones, or even those that are mutually controlling that are consensual. Some are in a patriarchal context, others are not. Some are backed by a religious viewpoing, others are not.
I’m outing myself as a super freak here, but in the BDSM community (if you don’t know what that is, look it up), there is occasional controversy about people who are in master/slave relationships. Yes, actual slavery is ILLEGAL, but if consenting adults choose to engage in behavior where one is in control of the other, this is NOT an abusive or illegal relationship. I’m not saying that this is AT ALL what is happening with TH/Jenna, but it is an appropriate parallel to make when considering consent.
There is a HUGE distinction between consensual and non-consensual behavior in relationships! Please make it when considering your condemnations of other people’s choices! What works for you doesn’t always work for everyone else! That doesn’t mean it is wrong!
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Ashley (that one) Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Ironic that you’re bringing up alternative lifestyles and heteronormality, when Jenna herself has stated that she thinks homosexuality is wrong, and her religion advocates VERY VERY STRONGLY against the rights of gays.
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Kathryn Speyer Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
I am aware that this does make a striking parallel. But bringing that up is not really relevant here, nor does it serve any purpose other than to be intentionally inflammatory.
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Jenny Reply:
August 13th, 2009 at 1:17 am
Ashley-
Your response is what is wrong with today’s society. You are diluting the word “abuse” and cheapen it. It is unfortunate that you take it so far.
Jenna- I think Cyd said it very well. Best of luck to you and your husband. You seem to enter into marriage with more thought then many people and knows what it takes to be successful.
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August 11th, 2009 on 10:46 am
I never got a jerk vibe from your posts about your husband.
Talking about weight in our relationship is very important because we both want to live to watch our future children/grandchildren grow and to do that, we have to lose weight.
Great post.
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August 11th, 2009 on 10:48 am
Thanks for sharing, Jenna! I understand the concerns that people have — reading just those one or two posts might give people the wrong impression about the two of you — but I don’t know how anyone could read here regularly and not know you for the strong, smart woman that you are and see for themselves how much you two love each other and bring out the best in each other.
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August 11th, 2009 on 10:57 am
thanks for writing this- I admit I have had a hard time with the way you’ve represented your husband and your relationship at times, but your explanation of keeping his foibles, troubles, problems private makes a lot of sense to me- my husband is introverted and very private and he would have a very hard time compromising on the blog issue even in the way that TH has.
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August 11th, 2009 on 10:58 am
I also never thought you husband was a jerk. We’ve talked about weight gain (on my part) and I want to be healthy with a happy/long/fruitful life.
I think you shouldn’t have to prove his love for you on your blog! I’ve had a co-worker say that my H was a jerk but she wasn’t fully aware of the situation (and she was unappreciative of his kindness towards her).
It’s great that you can share these stories!
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August 11th, 2009 on 11:01 am
adorable photo of an adorable couple.
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August 11th, 2009 on 11:03 am
Good post. I didn’t really question That Husband’s motives about the debt thing, because that REALLY is a problem that has to be got under control, and I know as someone who has never been in debt (no student loans, no store cards, nothing) that I couldn’t live with someone who kept digging themselves into the debt pit. The weight thing…it’s a hard line, because you want to be able to say, “I love you no matter what you lok like”, while still saying, “You need to lose weight both for health reasons and for self-esteem reasons”. So I didn’t really have an issue with what That Husband said about your weight.
HOWever, for me, I’m afraid I would have to draw the line at someone telling me what tv shows or entertainment in general I could watch. That would be my dealbreaker. You want me to get rid of my dvd boxsets of my favourite shows? I choose them over you, because if you’re controlling that, who knows what else you’re going to try and control in the future? Goodbye.
However, that said, it all depends what importance you place on said entertainment. I don’t feel that watching Friends, Grey’s, House etc have any kind of negative impact on me. I admire the writing and the witty dialogue and enjoy the “dun-dun-dun” cliffhangers. When you say your thoughts are “cleaner” without them, why is that? Is it because of the lack of sexual morals in some of those shows (Grey’s is especially guilty here!)? Or something else? At any rate, watching those people do things I would never dream of doing doesn’t make me want to do them, and it doesn’t make me feel dirty or unclean either. I know we all view these things differently, so I won’t say TH is a jerk here either. But I wouldn’t be able to be with him if he made me give up on some of my favourite things that I don’t believe are bad for me.
One other thing: I’m quite happy to tell our future possible children that they can’t watch certain shows. Shows with themes of sex and violence are not meant for little ones, but that doesn’t mean *I* can’t watch them. When I think they are emotionally ready to deal with that sort of thing, I’ll let them. I started watching soaps when I was ten or eleven, and I think I turned out okay, because my parents made a point of telling me that it was just a story, and people had to do all that crazy stuff to make the story, but it wasn’t something I should ever consider doing.
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Turtle Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 11:13 am
I think you raise a great point about what children can watch and what adults can watch. The news is a perfect example of what is appropraite and even necessary for adults but not for children- they don’t need to know about prisoners being tortured (certainly at least not in detail) but all voters and informed adult should know.
In a similar way, some works of art and entertainment in all its myriad forms can only be understood and properly processed by adults. But I know this is a point i just diverge from Jenna on- I’m rabidly anti-censorship- nevertheless (in keeping with my love for free expression), I truly appreciate reading about views different from my own.
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Meghan Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
Everytime Jenna makes a comment about their stance on not watching movies they wouldn’t let their kids watch I think “Well that would not for me”. I wouldn’t watch the shows or movies in front of my children, or banish them to other rooms, because that would be wrong. But I’d hate to subject myself to only kids programing for five plus years, it wouldn’t be stimulating enough.
What if Timmy is old enough to watch a Harry Potter movie (as an example) without having nightmares but his little brother isn’t? In this setting no one watches it as it’s hypocritical to allow one child to but not the other. Personally I think life isn’t fair, and letting your kids know there are certain things they can’t watch just because of their emotional immaturity is one safe way to teach that.
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TH Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
Let me clarify the media limits at our house a little bit, since that’s where the hang-up is for most readers. I strongly believe in having the same standard for our children as we do for ourselves, while understanding that 3 year old cannot handle the life of a 25 year old. So while we wouldn’t want our 3-year-olds to watch a scary PG action movie we own, we also wouldn’t want to set a double standard for our pre-teen/teen children. Part of the reason comes from our own upbringing. Those limits in our youth only made us want to see “forbidden” media more, and the system put a strain on our relationships with our parents. When we do have children, I hope we can both lead by example and say: “You shouldn’t watch that because it has negative effects on you, and that’s why we don’t watch it either.” If our kids are free-spirited like Jenna and I, this system will help us a great deal as our kids grow up.
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Turtle Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
Thanks for the reply, TH. Just to clarify- does this mean that you wouldn’t read/watch news that you wouldn’t let any member of your family watch? Do you imagine that as your children age that you will expand the kinds of things you will all view?
I understand the forbidden fruit concept- and commend you for learning from your own experiences, but I do find it hard to imagine that the family watching only Disney movies that the 4 year can watch will smother the curiosities of the 13 year old.
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TH Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
No, when our kids are very small of course we will shield them from potentially harmful media. So if we are watching, for example, a PG action movie with a 13-year-old we’d put our 5-year-old to bed. We’ve never discussed it with TW, but I hope that by the time our kids reach 8 or 9 they’ll be able to watch all the stuff we watch.
As for the news, the only newspapers I consider worth reading are the Wall Street Journal, Financial Times, and to a much lesser extent, the New York Times (which I don’t read). I’d be happy to have my kids read the first two starting at age 0. As for TV news, I haven’t found one really worth watching, but NPR radio is pretty good, and I’d be happy to pass it on to my kids as soon as they can understand it.
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Meghan Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 11:07 am
TH: To clarify, what you really mean is that you won’t watch movies that you would never want your children to watch. But you will watch movies or tv programming that eventually you will be comfortable with them watching?
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TH Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
To add one thing, our religious beliefs play a big part in our choice of media and why we don’t watch “Friends.” I’m not a Friends buff, but the couple of episodes I’ve seen really trivialize sex, including one of the characters participating in a porn movie and everyone enjoying watching it at dinner. My sample size here is ~3 episodes, so I have no idea what else they do.
The point is that Friends trivializes, or encourages, exactly the kinds of behaviors we would avoid ourselves and we would hope our kids to avoid.
I do believe that media consumption has a very big effect on young people, going off of my own experience, and we don’t want the TV to steer them in the wrong direction.
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Erin Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
Your sample size is really small; you’ve probably seen some of the only sex-related episodes. In couples therapy (I’m a psyc) we talk about the Friends phenomenon and how people start having unrealistic expectations for their relationships because sitcoms show lots of happiness and conflicts being wrapped up in 22-minutes. Though we are all wise enough to know that it is just a TV show, it is still projecting a constant example of a relationship - expectations subconsciously shift. Life is not a sitcom - but we watch so much, expectations start to blend. I think that is a better reason not to watch Friends. In a separate post, I’d like to hear your family’s opinion on the pros AND the cons of sheltering your children (sheltering was said without a negative connotation - but as Jenna can likely attest too, there are probably very few women in her peer group who’ve never seen a Friends episode).
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August 11th, 2009 on 11:06 am
Well said. A good marriage is all about give and take and following the same set of values you have laid out together.
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August 11th, 2009 on 11:12 am
Jenna, I started reading you on Weddingbee and then I followed you here. I can’t say how much I admire you. I don’t have to agree with everything you say but there are lots of things that make me think about my own relationship and the kind of marriage I want for me and my guy. Thank you.
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August 11th, 2009 on 11:15 am
Just a quick note to say, that while I believe you and I are so very very different on so many levels, I am continually captivated by your honesty, your insight and your willingness to open your heart up to others and to share. I truly admire that quality and love that you can so intelligently respond to naysayers, without defensiveness or apparent frustration. It’s so very refreshing and undeniably admirable. (AKA I love an intelligent woman who can take the high road while still standing her ground - it’s not always an easy act to juggle!)
xo
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Teresa S. Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
I just wanted to say, I could have totally wrote the same response Cyd! I agree with you 100%.
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Shell Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
I picked up on that too, but didn’t voice it. You said it so well Cyd!
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Julia Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
I agree with you too, Cyd. While I don’t agree with you 100% Jenna (different backgrounds, religious views, etc), it’s very hard to be SO honest on the internet without having criticism come spewing at you. If the shoe fits, wear it and if YOU are happy in your relationship with each other, then it works. Here’s to many years of joy for both you and TH.
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August 11th, 2009 on 11:19 am
Jenna- this is great. I can see how reading some of what you have been honest about can make some people concerned. but you cleared it up perfectly. i also think that those types of compromises are part of what make a marriage a successful one. it seems when we arent willing to make those sacrifices and compromises, it would in fact fail- or at least struggle. maybe thats why the divorce rate is so high- because people arent willing to sacrifice things for the one thing that should matter most- our marriage. i love that picture of the two of you!
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August 11th, 2009 on 11:31 am
I don’t think your husband is a jerk. I assure you if I was overweight or had a debt problem it would be an issue. In fact, the fact that I drank red bull was an issue for us. I no longer do that because when you are in a relationship you are running a marathon and not a mile.
I think the shows are a patriarchal but who cares what I think because it’s not my relationship. I am a total feminist and people think that I might be extreme with somethings I do in my life. Everyone does what works for them and if a person is not emotional/physically/economically abusive then it’s no one’s business but yours and TH.
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August 11th, 2009 on 11:33 am
Well said, Jenna. As always, you write with strength, honesty and heart.
I hear a lot of people say “s/he makes me want to be a better person” but it’s just words - they don’t follow it up with action.
To me, this is something that defines marriage. We’re in it together not just to create something new and powerful but to help each other become better individuals. That’s a real relationship and that’s what love’s all about.
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August 11th, 2009 on 11:42 am
Jenna, I applaud your honesty and candor and my opinion is that as long as you are independently making decisions that benefit you and as long as you are happy there is no reason for anyone to judge you or That Husband.
I hope that at some point we get to a world where no one is judged for their personal beliefs or values, whatever those may be.
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August 11th, 2009 on 11:44 am
Your husband being a jerk never really entered my mind. He was honest with you because he cares about your well being. Being over-weight is unhealthy and a battle for millions of Americans every day. Many people ignore the warning signs until it is too late and then losing weight becomes an uphill battle. We all need the love, support, and sometime brutal honesty from people that love us. I screen what my niece and nephew watches so I can totally understand why you chose to stay away from those shows. Great Post!!!
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August 11th, 2009 on 11:44 am
When you said, “Don’t marry a man expecting to change him,” it also made me think, “Don’t marry a woman expecting to change her.”
But, I think in every relationship at one point or another one person, or the other, has to do a little changing and it is usually because it is for the better of the relationship. Thank you for being open about how you do that for your relationship and I think as long as it goes both ways then no one is a jerk!
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August 11th, 2009 on 11:52 am
Wow. What a brave and well-spoken essay. So beautiful. Sometimes I think other people’s marriages appear to be much easier than my own, but I know that I am becoming the person I need and want to be through my marriage…a painful process many times, but I wouldn’t have it any other way.
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August 11th, 2009 on 12:02 pm
I didn’t read through your post very well, mostly skimmed, but I’ll definately read it later
But I didn’t need to read it - TH isn’t a jerk and you don’t have to defend your choice in him to anyone anyway (expect maybe your parents and family). All that I have read of him is that he is a very conscientious person and takes great care in every aspect of his life - most girls should be so lucky to have a guy that CARES about finances, what he watches and spends his time doing, etc. It’s obvious (to me at least) that he loves and cares for you very deeply. But he doesn’t just love you (because at the end of the day, that doesn’t get you very far in life) - - he also feels RESPONSIBILIY towards you and your future little family life. He wants to take care of you and then whatever kids come along in the best way he knows how. That’s something you can’t say about a lot of guys out there.
Most gals these days are tad different from us - brought up to think that men are oppressive and any intentions they have are obviously from a place of control and overbearing, old-fashioned masculinity. We know that good men ARE leaders and express their desires. They don’t cow-tow to women, but work *WITH* their wives as equals to make family life best for all involved.
Wow, I said a lot. In a nutshell, you and TH are awesome.
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Christiana Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
While I agree with much of your comment, I think the last part is a bit assumptive. While I understand that many people place assumptions on your LDS upbringing, faith and patriarchal structure please extend the same courtesy to other’s up bringings that you would prefer be applied to yours.
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Katy Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
I don’t think the ‘men are inherently bad’ idea is exclusive to those that just aren’t in my religion. Those LDS or not, those religious or not, can fall into this mindset and that is what I’m referring to. I’m not contrasting myself against those that aren’t LDS (or elevating myself against either), but rather just those of any upbringing regardless of religion/creed that devalues and belittles men.
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Erin Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 6:59 pm
I think it was the “Most gals these days are tad different from us” that didn’t sit right with Christiana or with me.
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TJ Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 11:02 pm
Or me. And it’s “kowtow.”
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August 11th, 2009 on 12:03 pm
Great post! I read every word, which doesn’t happen very often when I see a bunch of lengthy paragraphs.
I have to applaud you on giving up watching Friends…that’s the biggest sacrifice EVER.
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August 11th, 2009 on 12:05 pm
well said. i am not going to lie - there have been things you have said about TH that i know would make me unhappy if it was my relationship. but it’s not - it’s yours - and i’ve never doubted for a moment that you went into your marriage prepared to live by certain standards. to each there own, and i’m sure they will make you both stronger over time. and i know that many of those standards are much easier for you than they would be for me because you are a strong person who places much value in in living your life to a high standard
it’s a good thing.
i completely agree that you shouldn’t have to justify anything to anyone! i barely speak of my personal relationship with my husband on my blog - i don’t talk about our plans. i don’t talk about our finances. i certainly don’t talk about our disagreements. that’s private. other than pictures and the “i love my husband” comments, there’s not much to be learned about him - because my blog is about me.
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August 11th, 2009 on 12:08 pm
Okay, I read it through, I was going to do it later because I needed to get cleaning, but I couldn’t help myself.
Just wanted to say…that last. paragraph. rocked. EXACTLY what I was thinking and how I was hoping you would respond!
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August 11th, 2009 on 12:10 pm
thank you for this.
I can tell you love your husband dearly and respect him, and he loves you just as much and cares for you! It’s wonderfully inspiring and heartening to see the commitment you two have to each other to compromise, sacrifice and have a joyful marriage!
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August 11th, 2009 on 12:17 pm
Wonderful post, Jenna. Your honesty is always inspiring. I think the standards and accountability you hold for each other are very important in a marriage, and sadly we live in a world where “standards” are not often upheld. It is refreshing to know there are other young couples out there making everyday decisions for the betterment of their relationship and future family. Keep it up, girl!
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August 11th, 2009 on 12:18 pm
As much as people change as individuals over the course of a marriage, it makes some sense that both parties are willing to be flexible for each other when they’re going in to the marriage.
As my DH and I say all the time: every marriage is different, every couple navigates it their own way, and the picture of happiness looks different for everyone. Your choices are different from my choices, but DH and I have both changed and sacrificed for each other. That’s something that any married person should be able to understand.
As another extrovert married to an “introverted hermit”, I’ve had to explain how my DH isn’t a jerk to people, and it just never sounds convincing, even though he is the sweetest, most supportive person in my life. So I think I understand a little where you’re coming from.
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August 11th, 2009 on 12:23 pm
Thanks for sharing Jenna. While I don’t think you have to explain yourself to anyone, I admit that I raise an eyebrow sometimes regarding the things TH says. :X I understand his reasons for keeping your weight and debt in check, but there are a lot worse things you could be watching than “Friends!” I guess it’s just about where you two agree to draw the line together.
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August 11th, 2009 on 12:24 pm
You know, most of my friends think MY husband is a jerk, for a lot of the same reasons. But really, giving up things that the prophet himself has couseled against (questionable media, debt, and then there is healthy living) isn’t bad at all. I think telling a guy “Well, you can’t change ME!” over things that really are weaknesses just consigns a gal to unhappy singlehood (there is such a thing as happy singlehood, but staying single because you refuse to stop spending cash like a fiend won’t end up happy methinks) or an unhappy marriage - I’ve seen those too. My husband insists we not fill our mind or house with crap, and I realized he was right. What’s wrong with admiting we’re wrong?! The hard one for our relationship is the Sabbath day thing - as a professional musician, I’ve had to bend the rules many a time and he doesn’t understand that sometimes a recital is not the same as a soccer game - but nevertheless, we could be broke and have issues with our church membership, so I’ll take the smaller quibbles
This essay is to say, yes, my friends and collegues think my husband is a jerk too, but I’m a better person for chosing to live this way, so I just smile and nod
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August 11th, 2009 on 12:27 pm
Wow Jenna, what a loving post. I have to admit, I consciously have to try not to judge you…and others for that matter. Judgement is one of my faults and I work daily to overcome it. Who am I to judge you and your choices. Your life is one that you alone live.
I also have to admit that I was really confused about the whole “I don’t watch Friends anymore, but I used to love the show” thing. I can understand that it isn’t the most “pure” show - but it’s a comedy for goodness sakes alive! And a hilarious one at that. I also can’t say that I wouldn’t allow my kids to watch it. But I disagree about the statement of not allowing your children to watch what you do. You are an adult, you get to make your own choices and have a greater understanding of what you see on TV or the big screen. Children are still learning. When they are adults they can make their own choices on what to watch….ok that was kinda a tangent, but I had to add my thoughts on that.
I’m also glad that you made the statement that you consciously do not discuss your husband’s faults. Otherwise it really does seem that you put him on a pedestal. And although that is sweet in theory, I just worried that you were doing so falsely in some respects. But, I will respect your decision to keep your husband’s faults separate from this blog
Although I don’t believe you can truly make someone change - as those changes must come from their own free will…it does appear that your hubby has/is changing you though. I guess the important thing is that you feel he is changing you for the better…
I enjoy reading what you do have to share even if I don’t always agree with you - I think it is actually what keeps me coming back for more…although I still avoid your Sunday posts like the plague :O
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August 11th, 2009 on 12:32 pm
I sometimes think that when I talk about my husband people get the idea that he is also domineering over me, specifically over money. This is especially when I say things like, “DH let me buy this…” or “DH won’t let me get something like that.” But he is not controlling over our finances, it is just that he works for our money and I do not feel justified in spending money the way I would if I worked. So, I understand your wanting to clear things up for your readers.
But, after studying domestic violence for over a year, I also know that signs like the controlling of finances and controlling of activities such as your TV time are the sometimes the first signs of an abusive relationship. I’m totally not accusing him or you of being in one, but just be aware that resources exist for you (or for any reader who is in a violent relationship!) if it ever comes to that.
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August 11th, 2009 on 12:40 pm
I completely disagree with these comments. I DO think TH is a jerk to you, and I have thought that through all of your posts. I don’t care how “one-sided” you are choosing to present your facts, it is ridiculous to believe that he says he wants you to “live longer” than him, and that is why the weight bothers him. That is a load of crap, and a manipulating tactic on his part. I keep reading this blog in hope that things will change, but it seems the only thing changing is YOU. Never him. To me, that is ridiculous. But, live your life, and I appreciate the rest of the stories you tell. But, I just had to admit, that his lies aren’t fooling this reader. You are a brilliant author, but you are forced to live some very strict guidelines.
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TH Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
Reader, no need to conceal your identity - I can handle criticism pretty well. I don’t really know how to respond to your comment other than to note: it seems you are projecting your own problems and frustrations on That Wife. To which I can say, genuinely, that I am sorry, because you must have been treated very poorly not to be able to conceive how I could care about anything more than TW’s looks. That said, I think this is a good opportunity to say where I stand for all readers who are wondering.
I love TW and I would love her still if she gained 100 pounds. True, if she had been 100 pounds heavier, we probably would have never dated or got married. Now the shocker: if I had been 100 pounds heavier, we probably would have never dated or got married either.
This is because extra weight is a big detriment to one’s attractiveness, and That Wife wanted an attractive husband just as I wanted an attractive wife. The physical attraction was part of what sparked the love between us, but we both expect it to be an ever-diminishing part of what bonds us together, as we both age and our looks ride off into the sunset. But just because our looks will diminish doesn’t mean we should let ourselves go, and I will always support That Wife in getting to a healthy weight as part of wanting to look more attractive.
For the long term, I did make TW promise that she would outlive me, as I really never want to be on this Earth without her. I make her re-promise this about once a week. I also want to be able to do things with her as we get old, and good health is one of the key prerequisites. The amount of scientific research that shows the increased risks of being overweight is overwhelming, and we both need to stay at a healthy weight. This is a challenge for both of us, as I know my metabolism will slow down one day.
But alas, as fate would have it, we have a much bigger problem on our heads. TW has a bad back and it is barely able to support her current weight, and now we are “Expecting to Expect”™. If TW becomes bedridden while pregnant, or permanently injures her back, I would frankly never forgive myself for sitting on the sidelines and not saying anything. And that’s why I will keep supporting her and motivating her when she feels down and helping her in any way I can to lose weight.
So in the end, while I don’t mind what you believe about my motives, I hope that you can see how caring about your loved one’s weight doesn’t have to objectify them or have an evil motive. Even in cases where it really only comes down to looks, it can be positive. You should care about how you and your spouse look, and you should motivate your spouse to be the most attractive they can to you. I do it to TW, TW does it to me, and we both love it about our relationship.
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Kristin Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 9:04 am
Haha TH! You put a little trademark next to ETE. I smiled at that.
)
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Krystal Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Haha the trademark was a nice touch! I wanted to thank TH for writing so well what his viewpoints are.
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Marissa Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
The fact that TH responded in such a loving way makes me smile
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Kate Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
Amen, Reader. I’m glad that SOME of Jenna’s readers are picking up on what is obvious
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TH Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 10:43 pm
Ashley, even though some of your comments are unconstructive or insultive, there’s no need to hide behind a different name. Your IP address gives you away even if you change it, so there’s no point, and it’s not like TW is going to moderate you unless your comments move from mildly insluting to obscene.
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Kathryn Speyer Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
She’s not being “forced” to do anything. She has expressed that she has given her permission many times over. She has also indicated that they have made mutual ‘limits’ on each other. This mutuality is something a lot of people also seem to be missing. That’s not to say that their decisions might not be controversial, but they are adults, and everything indicates that they have carefully thought about and consented to their respective roles in their relationship.
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August 11th, 2009 on 12:46 pm
My take on situations like this has always, always been that as long as the couple expecting the changes exhibits that same behavior themselves, then they are merely trying to better the other person, and it is not ‘patronizing’ or ‘controlling.’ Of course, the other individual has the choice to choose or reject — I certainly would not think any less of you if you decided that you didn’t want to give up your favorite TV shows to date him, because each person should choose what makes him or her happiest. I also get a lot of accusations that my husband is a jerk, though I do vent about him on my blog, but he has never once asked me to do something which he will not do himself. He never wants me to spend money, but he is also super frugal (though it does get exhausting working hard myself and not getting to spend any of my money since it all goes to pay off his medical school debt!). He would never ask me to give up my career to be a SAHM, because he would never give up his own career so why should he ask me to do something that he himself wouldn’t consider? Would I give up my favorite TV show for my husband? If he had a legitimate reason that made sense, then absolutely — just like I expect him to make certain sacrifices in his life for me.
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August 11th, 2009 on 12:50 pm
Jenna, as always you convey your viewpoint and emotions in such a classy and well thought out manner. I am in awe and have always had the uttmost respect for individuals who can convery their emotions in such a way.
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August 11th, 2009 on 12:59 pm
An interesting post, I will admit that sometimes the way you write about TH does seem to imply he is quite domineering-portraying the relationship as more of a father-child than husband-wife. However, everybody’s relationship is different and if it works for you, then you should be all set, regardless of what other people think. I learned a long time ago that I couldn’t live my life based on what other people thought, in the beginning that included my husband (before he was my husband-his thoughts carry just a bit more weight now
). In the end, it comes down to me and God, that is the most important relationship and if I focus on getting that one right-all others will fall into place. Any faults that my husband has ever mentioned have always been faults/issues that I was already quite aware of and already working to correct so we’ve never had deal breakers in the many years we’ve been together.
I will admit, I do disagree with you (at least partially) on the entertainment issue. While I admire your personal stance on removing tv shows from your life, I do not believe that children and adults are emotionally ready nor mature enough to handle the same content. Just as I would not discuss sexual topics with a five year old the same like I might with a 25 year old, I would not expose a five year old to the same viewing content (tv/news/movies/music/books) that I would to a teenager/young adult/mature adult.
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August 11th, 2009 on 1:08 pm
It’s all about your own beliefs - for me, I would look at my husband as completely controlling if he spoke about what I watched on television. HOWEVER, I do not have the same religious beliefs as you. It is your judgement call to make and your marriage is much different than mine, or that one’s or that one’s. We will all differ on things but if you are happy in your marriage and you don’t think he is a jerk than he is not. You can judge him much better than the rest.
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August 11th, 2009 on 1:10 pm
I find your post so very interesting. I saw a lot of myself in your husband, though I have to admit that I also wondered if he was a bit domineering. Of course I began to wonder, “well, how do I sound when I make these requests in my house?”
Once I read he was Polish, I changed my mind a bit. I know Germans to be very straight forward with no BS and maybe his culture is very much the same.
I told my husband I would not enter our marriage with credit card debt. We ended up paying his card completely off 6 months after our wedding (we had a shotgun wedding for no reason except I didn’t want showers and the frills that have nothing to do with matrimony). Good enough for me.
I just recently asked my husband if we could get rid of cable until we move at the end of this year. We found ourselves watching incredibly trashy TV to pass the time. I love to read but getting sucked into TV is far too easy. He is going to sacrifice this for me.
My husband also told me that if I was overweight he didn’t know if we would have started dating in the first place. When him and I started dating, I always thought he was cute but could lose 10 pounds.
I think these are issues almost all couples struggle with. I like that your husband knows what he wants (like me) but I do think the perception of him is that he requires you do these things not a “give take relationship”. Maybe he doesn’t. I haven’t been following you for very long.
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August 11th, 2009 on 1:24 pm
I love this post. I think you hit the nail on the head. The blogs I love to read are not the blogs that complain about their husbands, but rather, are candid about themselves. I think you did a great job explaining the boundary I had unconsciencly placed for my own blog/marriage. I also believe anyone who has read your blog(S) for any length of time would know you well enough to know you wouldn’t marry a jerk.
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August 11th, 2009 on 1:47 pm
Jenna, you are strong, independent-thinking woman (NOT one to be pitied). No wonder I like you so much!
Frankly, what I follow in life is that people that do not know me personally I do not value their opinion or criticism. No one knows what goes on behind closed doors anyone’s marriage. I am also a woman (believe it or not) that does not care what anyone thinks about her. If you like me, great. If not, I’m still living my life.
Like TH, I also have high standards. He was being true to his values and principles when he stated these issues. Then you agreed to them and see that it has made not only you better, but your relationship better as well.
Andrew and I knew each other for nine years solely as friends before we started a relationship. Having that foundation helped us do some of the same processes you and TH did. We were true to ourselves and made a list of things that would either have to change or stay the same or it wouldn’t work. Now that we are married (soon to be one year!) we also are very thankful for each other (and more in love with each passing day).
Sorry for the long-winded response.
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August 11th, 2009 on 1:48 pm
Jenna, you are a strong, independent-thinking woman (NOT one to be pitied). No wonder I like you so much!
Frankly, what I follow in life is that people that do not know me personally I do not value their opinion or criticism. No one knows what goes on behind closed doors anyone’s marriage. I am also a woman (believe it or not) that does not care what anyone thinks about her. If you like me, great. If not, I’m still living my life.
Like TH, I also have high standards. He was being true to his values and principles when he stated these issues. Then you agreed to them and see that it has made not only you better, but your relationship better as well.
Andrew and I knew each other for nine years solely as friends before we started a relationship. Having that foundation helped us do some of the same processes you and TH did. We were true to ourselves and made a list of things that would either have to change or stay the same or it wouldn’t work. Now that we are married (soon to be one year!) we also are very thankful for each other (and more in love with each passing day).
Sorry for the long-winded response.
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August 11th, 2009 on 2:04 pm
I really liked this post. I thought it was great. I think it is 100% admirable that you respect TH privacy as he wishes, and he respects your need for blogging. It’s all about working together! There are definitely things I’ve given up because my husband doesn’t feel it is appropriate, but I don’t just follow blindly. I decide for myself that I want it that way. Loved the post Jenna!
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August 11th, 2009 on 2:07 pm
I admire the fact that you write this blog about “you and your life” and are able to respect your husband’s wishes to keep him out of it, but I sort of wonder how it is you are able to do that. I have often asked my husband’s permission to blog, and he has continually asked me not to because he is very private, like TH. And I recognize that our lives are so bound up together that it would be incredibly difficult for me to blog without including him (eg “So today Mr. W and I did this/made that decision/cooked this dinner/watched this movie”). I guess it is the lack of TH’s presence in what you choose to represent on this blog that leads to the assumption on some people’s parts that he is a jerk — not that I think this myself, but I can understand how a reader could come away seeing him as just some random cute Polish guy who shows up every once and a while to tell you what to do and underwrites your living expenses.
One thing that I really, really admire in this post though — you don’t bend to the pressure. Many people would rationalize to themselves that it was better for people to know more about their husband so they would understand how not-jerky he is. You stick to your guns in respecting his wishes, even though some will stubbornly distrust you (as if 1. we can magically know better than you what your home life is like and 2. our opinions on whether or not your husband is a jerk ultimately matter to you, him, or God). I think you are a brave, excellent wife to do this. Kudos to you.
But if TH ever does authorize more information being shared about him, I would love to hear about what an awesome guy he is. Husband bragging is one of my favorite things to hear and to do.
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August 11th, 2009 on 2:11 pm
This is interesting because you and TH have covered such a wide range of topics that make him appear a bit domineering. Finances is DEFINITELY something that EVERY couple should discuss before marrying. Weight, for health reasons, is also a topic I can understand. But TV and entertainment…well, I’d draw a different line there in my own life. But these kinds of decisions are affected by background, beliefs, cultures, etc, so it shouldn’t surprise anyone that what works for you is different than what works for them!
At the end of the day, your marriage is YOUR marriage, and no matter how much we think we know from reading your blog, we are not in your relationship. Only you and TH know what makes it work!
And I have to echo some of the other commenters — even though I don’t share many of your beliefs, the candid and honest way you write about your life is really inspiring!
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August 11th, 2009 on 2:14 pm
Great post Jenna! I can’t say anything that any of the other posters haven’t already said. But I did want to say how much I <3 your blog.
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August 11th, 2009 on 2:18 pm
Wow, someone sure stirred the pot.
Anyways, I just want to say that I had the same concerns as many. The blogging only showed the changes you made in the relationship. But you cleared up that point very nicely.
I think personal change in a relationship, when it makes a better peron and partner, is a positive step. I’ve really had to work on “letting go” and trying not to be “controlling.”
It’s a struggle, let me tell you, but my relationship with my FI is improving because of it. But while I am making this change, he has changed for me. He quit smoking after 12 years of being a heavy smoker. It was done for him, for us, for his health and for our future kids - I didn’t want them growing up with smoke around.
I guess what I’m saying is that as long as BOTH of you are working on being better people in this relationship, where can you go wrong?
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August 11th, 2009 on 2:46 pm
Jenna thank you for your honest posts. I’ve never thought that your husband was a jerk. You both are very devout and I think that both of you are working to create a marriage that is sacred and joyous, and pleasing in God’s sight. And I think the things that TH has asked you to change, or to work on, are fair if you agree that they need work — same with him. Thanks again, I love your blog!!!
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August 11th, 2009 on 2:57 pm
Well said! I didn’t really get that vibe from TH. My husband had certain expectations for me too, and while if I don’t think about it, they may seem petty or domineering, but when I do think about what those requests really mean, they are definitely for our greater good. He is not trying to take advantage of my “submission,” just trying to smooth things out for the future.
Thanks for sharing this. And I love your openness. I only wish I felt free to be more open on my blog.
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August 11th, 2009 on 2:58 pm
I already said this via Twitter, but I never thought that. I think it’s pretty rad that you’re that open to making positive steps in your life and that TH inspires you to do so. TH strikes me as the kind of guy I’d like to hang out with {with or without condensed milk
}
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August 11th, 2009 on 3:03 pm
I’ve always thought yours and TH’s relationship (at least, the way you publicly portray it) was one of gives and takes. Healthy and compromising, as it should be. People can and do change, and can be changed, if they allow themselves to be. It’s up to each individual and couple to decide which changes are worth implementing. Cleaner living, solid finances, and healthy lifestyle seem like great changes to me! It seems like you two are choosing your changes wisely to me. I definitely believe that attitude of “Too Bad For You; I Will Do What I Please” doesn’t get anyone far in a marriage. There’s a big difference between independance and greed/arrogance/ego, and you seem to be aware of that difference. Good for you two!
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August 11th, 2009 on 3:46 pm
I saw the potential of people thinking that your husband was controlling. Realistically I think that the boundaries that you guys have set are healthy boundaries. I’m getting married in just over a month and we have very similar guidelines. We are by far, not a traditional couple. We’ve lived together for 3 years before we decided to get married. With that, those guidelines decided had nothing to do with beliefs or religions.
No debt, specific financial rules, agreed views on how we will raise children. These are things that couples fight over when not figured out before marriage. If you set these guidelines before marriage then you’ll have a lot smoother ride.
As far as weight is concerned, I would approach my soon-to-be husband if his weight was an issue. It is a health issue overall that will effect a person’s mind and physical health.
Marriage is a team effort and these things are grounds for a healthy marriage.
As far as the television issue, to each his/her own.
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August 11th, 2009 on 3:46 pm
While you and are definitely very different people, like others I definitely admire your honesty and candor.
I would NOT be in a relationship in which I was told what I shouldn’t watch, but it’s not MY relationship. If you are happy in it, that’s all that matters.
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August 11th, 2009 on 3:51 pm
i’m surprised at how people have reacted to this whole tv show thing…
isn’t changing what tv shows you watch a lot smaller of an issue than debt and weight gain? people are willing to change their spending habits and diets…but if you don’t like this show and i do, it’s over? that seems a little out of whack.
i used to really like crime type shows…csi and criminal minds and stuff like that. however, one morning (after having watched one of these shows the night before) my husband told me he had a hard time sleeping because he was worried about being able to keep me safe or if he would be able to protect our family if anyone tried to harm us. it might sound silly, but he was really bothered by those thoughts.
and it really bothered me to see my husband experiencing such negative feelings because of a tv show. so…we don’t watch those shows anymore. my husband’s peace of mind is more important to me than anything-especially a tv show.
but we also don’t watch things that bother me…like ultimate fighting or movies where people get punched in the face a lot.
when you’re married, you make changes to keep each other feeling positive. i choose a happy spouse over a television series any day!!!
(and-gasp!-we don’t watch friends either.)
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Kat Forsyth Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 4:51 am
Kacey, I think it’s the fact that the TV show thing IS a smaller issue that makes it the problem! We can all see that weight, health and money are important issues and if our partner wants us to change our habits in those cases, it’s because health and being debt-free are very, very important. A TV show is not important in the grand scheme of things. It doesn’t impact on me negatively, in my opinion. Therefore having someone tell me, “You will not watch this” would be very upsetting and I would find it very controlling. Because it shouldn’t matter to my partner if I love that show or not! HE doesn’t have to like it, but he shouldn’t be able to prevent me from watching it.
That’s just me, though. I realise TH and Jenna’s relationship works differently, as well as yours with the crime show issues. But it would be a dealbreaker for me. I asked my husband after I first commented, and he said that if I had tried to tell him what he should or shouldn’t watch earlier on in our relationship, he would have broken up with me too.
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August 11th, 2009 on 3:54 pm
Well said, Jenna! TH sounds very disciplined and prinicpled. My mother also told me that “you can’t change a man” and while I did get him to finally put the toilet seat down and quit smoking I know there are certain things about my hubby that I won’t be able to change. Although we’ve only been married one short month, I undertand that marriage is about working together and I think it’s wonderful that you and TH work together to make both of your lives better.
I really appreciate you being so honest and eloquent with your writing.
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Ashley Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Why is it not okay to change a man, but it’s okay for her to change herself to suit him?
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TH Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
Ashley, I think this is less about sexist onesidedness, and more about how we can’t make people change, but we ourselves can change for others.
TW and I both motivate each other to change for the better, and I changed many of my habits because of TW’s feedback. But in almost every case we don’t change to suit each other, we change because it improves us and our relationship.
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Ashley Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
Okay, what I meant was “How come TW has decided she can’t change a man, but you can change her?”
You can rationalize your controlling demeanor all you want. But that is what abusive partners do- constantly rationalize their actions. “It’s for their own good!” is a very common excuse heard by men who beat their wives, or emotionally abuse them.
And in these cases, TW has NOT said “I’m losing weight to feel better about myself!” or “I changed my spending habits to make myself a better person!” or “I stopped watching Friends because I decided it was crap!” NO. She said “My HUSBAND has encouraged me to do this.” She’s made it pretty clear that you are the reason she is doing this and you are the driving force behind her changing.
I’m not saying her changing is a bad thing, I think many people should be better with their spending, and should exercise more. But when the reason you’re doing it is because your controlling, domineering, possibly abusive husband is coercing you into it… THAT IS A VERY BIG PROBLEM.
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TH Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
Ashley, even though I’m never going to be able to convice you, you are agonizing over something that is really not there. I have actually never coerced TW into anything, and she can always say “I’m not doing this” or “I AM doing this” as she sometimes does. The only thing I do then is reason with her and let her know why I feel a certain way. But sometimes she doesn’t change and I learn to live with whatever I don’t like.
Now, part of your stance I do disagree with because of my own experience: change can be a great thing even if the main motivation is the other person. I really find it to personal to discuss, but before we got married TW put her foot down about certain aspects of having and raising children. She literally said she wouldn’t marry me if I held the views I had. So I changed, even if it initially was for her. And now I am really grateful that I did, because TW was right, and the change made me happier.
There is such a thing as an abusive relationship, but there is great danger in overdiagnosing as you are doing. You essentially trivialize the experiences of women who really are abused, both physically and emotionally. If you look at the other comments in this forum, many of them talk about changes that people made for their spouses. And if we call all their relationships abusive, the one or two people who really are abused may think they are the same as everyone else. So I think you have good intentions, but you may be doing more damage than good.
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Kathryn Speyer Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
It’s not abusive. Jenna has explicitly explained that she has given consent. There are many different types of relationships in this world, and some much more extreme than their chosen roles. Where there is mutual consent within the confines of the law, it is not abuse. Please do some research.
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August 11th, 2009 on 4:01 pm
for me the issue is not that it’s bad to compromise on things like tv shows (obviously a trivial part of anyone’s life)- my husband HATES reality tv and anything that glorifies the “awkward” for the same of humor- think Ben Stiller and The Office. So when he’s around, sure, i change the channel and I don’t suggest we go see Meet the Parents in the theatre. Of course. that is just getting along with someone.
The difference, for me, is having what I consume from a media perspective being limited or controlled by my husbands (and not my) personal beliefs. I think Jenna has shown that she listened to TH’s reasons and found them convincing and made them her own beliefs. I think what others are saying is that they would not be convinced by these reasons. For me, I devour books (I’m a graduate student in English) and all forms of journalistic media- NPR, NYTimes, other countries newspapers, etc-, I read about other religions, philosophies, political structures- and I also love trashy TV and I LOVE all kinds of theatre. I couldn’t be in a relationship with someone who curtailed these interests.
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Turtle Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
I meant my reply to be in response to Kacey.
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August 11th, 2009 on 4:08 pm
Your latest post really hit home with me. Some of the concerns that, TH has are similar to what my Fi has voiced as concerns. I’m glad that you felt that you could share this with us reader. Keep writing Jenna!
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August 11th, 2009 on 4:11 pm
I’ve never disagreed with your key principles and I didn’t think TH was a jerk about debt, etc. However, when he said “X & Y are the only newspapers worth reading” and so on I heard a different tone. My father and mother have a weakened relationship (yes, after 60 years) because he tends to pass judgment on her use of time, even when it is church work, and criticizes instead of building her. There is a very, very fine line and it can cause a rift that is so hurtful.
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TH Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
To be clear, Jenna can read whatever newspapers she wants, and listen/watch whatever news shows she wants. Really the only rule we have set, is we wont watch that which our kids (say over 9 y.o.) couldn’t watch. I just find that most news outlets are so hopelessly biased and don’t offer a sufficient analysis of events, that they really aren’t worth reading to me.
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August 11th, 2009 on 4:22 pm
I can see the love & respect that you and TH have for each other. Not to mention the MATURITY! As much as they are about love, marriages are also about mutal sacrifice and compromise. I heart you even more after reading this, and I’ve never met you. Is that weird?
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August 11th, 2009 on 4:30 pm
Like previous posters above, I enjoy your honesty Jenna. I don’t always agree with you, but I keep reading for your honesty and openness!
I see spending habits, and weight, as very different things from entertainment. Spending highly concerns you both as a couple - it’s both of your money! And there is nothing wrong with your husband wanting you to be healthy, as I’m sure you want for him.
But I honestly have a lot of difficulty wrapping my head around the concept of ‘standardised’ tv for you to watch. Does this tranfer to other areas of entertainment? books? music? Especially since you say you love to watch Friends, and your husband has only seen it a few times, to me it seems an odd request.
However, there is a huge difference between your husband refusing to let shows be watched by you, and voicing an opinion that he thinks Friends/Grey’s/House or whichever show is garbage.
And last, but not least - your husband is not my husband, he’s yours. These things seem odd to me, and wouldn’t have worked for me. But they do for you. If he thinks there are areas where your lives can be improved, and you agree, then great for you both!
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Ellie Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
I was all set to totally agree here. Then I started thinking about it more.
I think if my FI watched shows like The Man Show or shows that degrade women in a way I find offensive, I think it would really upset me. I think I would plead with him to stop watching those shows, because even if he found them funny, I believe it would change how he thought about women, and consequently, me. I think that maybe this is TH’s way of thinking - he doesn’t like certain shows because they portrey something he doesn’t like (but what’s the beef with Bones? its so good!) and finds upsetting or offensive. I think maybe it is okay to ask somebody who is important to you to not do things that upset you. I think it’s equally okay to not agree with that person, but if you realize that they are right, maybe that’s okay too.
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TH Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
Ellie, thank you for articulating my thoughts : ) We agreed with Jenna not to watch the shows for exactly the reason you mentioned - because of the effect we believe it has on us, and also the effect it would have on our children if they were permitted to watch.
As for Bones, we both actually really liked it, but I just couldn’t handle the gruesome episodes - girls imprisoned, raped, tied down, burned then eaten by dogs… some of them are just deeply disturbing and I think in part desensitizing. TW and I talked about it, and it really came down to whether we’d let our kids watch it, and the answer was no.
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Erin Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
I’m really going to stop commenting soon - but these are so great. My husband actually stopped watching CSI, Law and Order, etc. “for me” because I have horrible nightmares after every single one. I completely agree about the desensitizing, but I never got to that place and would wake up crying - way too sensitive. Since TV is something we rarely watch alone - we’ve eliminated anything violent, and the evening news for that matter - must be in the morning, too depressing.
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Allison Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
I’m confused, Ellie - it sounds like you do agree with me?
“I think maybe it is okay to ask somebody who is important to you to not do things that upset you. I think it’s equally okay to not agree with that person,”
sounds a lot like
“there is a huge difference between your husband refusing to let shows be watched by you, and voicing an opinion that he thinks Friends/Grey’s/House or whichever show is garbage.
… if he thinks there are areas where your lives can be improved, and you agree, then great for you both!”
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Ellie Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 9:19 pm
I only meant that I was all set to agree that standardizing TV seemed like an odd request, esp. since it was something he didn’t watch. Then I realized I’ve only seen two partial episodes of The Man Show, and it wouldn’t matter how much my FI loved it, I still would be upset if he watched it and would ask him not to, no matter how controlling it made me seem to other people.
Totally agreed with the rest of your comment (i.e. the part you pasted.)
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Kelli Nicole Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 11:38 pm
I completely agree about being desensitized by certain shows. I saw GI Joe the other day and I actually missed one of the ‘death scenes’ because I was so fascinated with watching the kid 2 seats over. He was only about 5, but he watched the whole movie with the exact same non-expression, the violence and gore didn’t affect him at all (I noticed as I repeatedly dug my face into the BF’s shoulder during fight scenes). That’s not how I want to be and that’s not how I want my children to be.
I watched Friends and other shows growing up and I can say that they were NOT good for me. I didn’t need to learn about sex from Friends. I shouldn’t have watched it. Even though it’s extremely entertaining and enjoyable to watch, it does not make me feel good, even as an adult, and it doesn’t enlighten or uplift. It makes light of things that we view as sacred. It’s not like TH is asking Jenna to stop watching Care Bears because he thinks it’s a stupid show.
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Ellie Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 5:51 am
See, watching Friends and Bones is how I unwind after a long day at work. I work with victims of domestic violence helping them with their divorce, custody, and protection order cases and some days it gets incredibly depressing. I love my job, but I went to law school to help people and some days I just can’t and it seriously upsets me. So I come home and watch TV because I get to laugh or I get to live somebody else’s life for a little while and it helps me cope with my day. Friends is just funny (and hasn’t made me into somebody promiscuous who thinks casual sex is a good thing.) Bones, while it depicts violent horrors, doesn’t actually show very much violence compared to a lot of cop shows or movies, and I definitely don’t think that I’m desensitized to violence - but like I said, some days my days are depressing and we can’t get any kind of resolution or justice for our clients. So it’s nice for me to escape into a TV world where there is justice, and resolution, and completion.
I’m not trying to say that everybody should feel or does feel this way - I totally understand your point of view that these shows aren’t enlightening and that they make light of things like sex or violence. I just wanted to point out that for some people, shows like this are uplifting, and they do make people feel good (or at least better.) (I’m also going to say that 25% of lawyers are alcoholics so I think watching Friends is a better way to cope with stress.)
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Kelli Nicole Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 10:12 am
Ellie, you have a very commendable job and I think Friends is a much better way to deal with the stress than alcohol
. I was mostly referring to when I watched it as a child and how I think there are definitely things that are inappropriate for children. I have never watched Bones, so I don’t even know what it is so I can’t comment on that one. And while I don’t have a casual attitude about sex from Friends, there are things that I personally can do to fill my time that are better. For ME it’s not good, but that’s not for anyone to judge except for me, just like for Jenna and TH. Only THEY can decide what is and what isn’t appropriate for them or their future children to watch.
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Rachael Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 7:50 am
Thank you for this, Ellie, about the desensitizing viewpoint. Our household doesn’t watch anything violent often at all, also most of the over-sexualized shows in nature on TV are trashy. We really don’t like the feeling it gives us afterwards.
As for shows like The Man Show that put down women, my husband doesn’t watch them and never has. Consciously, though, I never thought about it. If he watched them, I would have the same issue with it.
This really speaks for TH’s character.
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August 11th, 2009 on 4:33 pm
I know it’s a little off topic, but I’ve often wondered: Have you ever inadvertently insulted your parents by noting over and over again how your husband raised your standards? At least to me, it has seem to imply that you felt your upbringing was not up to snuff and that you needed someone else to make you “better”.
In the end, I think you and TH are very skilled at having those difficult conversations all couples need to be having. And, well, as far as your blog being one-sided, all blogs are bit like fiction, right? One never gets the full story (just the buffed up published parts) and therefore passing judgement seems entirely useless.
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HamiHarri Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 9:08 pm
Good quesion Helena! Now I’m sure TW and TH don’t mean to so high and mighty about their lives and what they believe in…although their statements seem to be filled a little too much with pride. I often wonder what her parents think of all this. Obviously they are very supportive of Jenna and her hubby…as they appear to be a very close family…but they have been a little blatant on how their way of life is a bit more “pure” and possibly even a “better” way of living then their parents raised them and live their lives.
I’m sure we’ve all said things about how our parents raised us that we would “never” do to our children…but usually not so publicly on a blog :O
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HamiHarri Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
Hey…I just wanted to add that I don’t like how this sounds - too harsh:
although their statements seem to be filled a little too much with pride.
what I mean is SOMETIMES your statements seem like this
Thanks.
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TH Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 10:58 pm
Maybe it’s our because of my personality, but I’m trying to put myself in their shoes. Would I want my kids to criticize my parenting methods and try to improve on them? That would be one of the biggest complements to me, and one of the best indicators that I raised them well.
Both mine and Jenna’s parents did a remarkable job raising us, and I will forever be grateful for that. Now we are trying to take what they gave us and improve upon it.
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August 11th, 2009 on 4:34 pm
You are describing an abusive relationship. Your husband is controlling you, and this is NOT OKAY.
http://www.stanford.edu/group/svab/relationships.shtml
http://www.stoprelationshipabuse.org/signs.html
There is help available.
I think it is very wrong that you are using this very public platform to advocate that it is OKAY TO BE ABUSED. Women read this, Jenna, and they see how you rationalize your husband’s controlling behavior, and then it becomes internalized- “he only controls what I eat because he loves me” “I gave up what makes me happy [your tv shows] because they weren’t good anyways…” Please think about how your actions are affecting others.
Love means loving the other person’s flaws, as well. If your husband does not love you THE WAY YOU ARE, then HE DOES NOT LOVE YOU. He absolutely does not love you. He may say he does, you may think he does, but if he is insisting that you change in order to be with him, that IS NOT LOVE.
Quite frankly, I’m very, very glad that you are getting emails from women saying that your husband is a jerk. I’m glad that other women are capable and intelligent enough to read between the lines of your blog. You try to paint your husband in the best possible light, and STILL his controlling tendencies come through. People reading this: Please think, if Jenna tries so hard to make her husband seem lovable, what on earth must he REALLY be like?
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TH Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Wow. I normally would just disregard this comment, but it is so misinformative that I just have to say something.
If what you are saying is true Ashley, then almost all relationships are abusive *both ways*. Let me be the first person to speak up for abused husbands, who have to stop smoking or drinking, give up basketball to spend more time with their wives, and who knows what else? I know that I’ve been so abused - I’ve had to sacrifice a big part of my earnings to start supporting a family, and my wife makes me take off socks when I wear shorts because it looks ugly.
On a more serious note, a relationship in which you can’t fathom changing for the person you love is a sad relationship. I won’t tell you all the changes I have made for TW, but there were some very signficant ones. Not only that, but I actually feel happier having made those changes, even if that’s now labeled “abuse.”
I understand where those articles come from, and it is true that many people, mostly women, cannot perceive they are in an abusive relationship. But if any relationship where spouses change for each other is abusive, then we have really lost touch with reality.
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Kathryn Speyer Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Again, Ashley, you are incorrect. While I would say that Jenna and TH’s roles are “not for me,” it is NOT abuse with consent.
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Kathryn Speyer Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
EDIT: I’d like to add that I don’t think that what Jenna and TH’s behaviors are actually abusive, either. Last comment made me sound like I’d think it was if there wasn’t consent. I don’t.
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August 11th, 2009 on 4:47 pm
I don’t think your husband is a jerk, but it does break my heart when I read that he tells you you can’t wear your cute red shoes. Clearly this is not a standard you both agree on. There is no harm in a cute shoe and they make you so happy. I can’t imagine why he would deny you that tiny joy other than to assert his control, and that just breaks my heart. The debt and weight I agree are issues that concern both of you…but really, your shoes?
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TH Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
Yeah, maybe (just maybe) I’m over the line with the red shoes. Maybe it’s my Polish upbringing, but I just really don’t like them. It’s like they convey the wrong message, although I can’t quite articulate what that message is.
Anway, TW made me throw away some slacks she didn’t like, so the clothing vetos run in the family. Let’s just say we both have some ugly clothes, and neither is willing to admit it.
Maybe I’ll have to rethink the red shoes…
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Katy Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
It’s a sad double standard - - had Jenna told the story that she made you through away ugly slacks, most women would be chuckling and “you go girl!” or “yep, those husbands of ours! They need our help to know what to do and what to wear!” YET when you express preference on an item of clothing you’d rather her not wear (whether or not she listens to you), suddenly you are an abusive, controlling person.
The modern women is made to feel that she can control everything, including their husband - and that they (the men in their life) are the better for it. Yet, should a man show an inkling of the slightest desire to see things happen a certain way, he’s the big Neandrathal.
I do agree with what you said before - that this notion of resisting any change precipitated by a man/husband/spouse trivializes what true abuse is and those that have gone through it.
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Katy Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 7:20 pm
did I just spell “throw” as “through”??
It’s been a long day….
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Ellie Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Agreed. Rethink the red shoes please! Red shoes are awesome (and if you’re lucky enough to have a cute pair that fits?? flaunt em!)
And I made my fiance get rid of all of his jeans, and I don’t like his short sleeved button downs. He doesn’t like my green shoes. Or my flip flops. I still wear them. He still wears the short sleeved button downs. Clothing vetoes run both ways, but so does acceptance of clothing you don’t like.
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Jenna Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 10:33 pm
Haha, we have a “automatic veto” on clothing. It allows me to throw out everything I don’t like of his, but it also allows him to do the same thing for me. I like it better that way, because it means if he brings something home I don’t like, I know he won’t ever be able to wear it because of our agreement.
And he does let me wear the red shoes, just not to church. He just doesn’t think they are appropriate for a time when we are worshiping God.
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Erin Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 7:29 pm
Red is provocative, red is sexy - that’s the message that our culture tells us about red shoes, lipstick, etc. (Red light district, Simply Irresistible video). But that is all a bit 80′s and now red (and color) is sassy, and fun. Un-veto the red shoes
And by the way, my husband would prefer I wear red lipstick and red shoes every single day over me blogging - which is why I’m just a commenter (currently wearing brown sandals). We all pick and choose our battles, I don’t think red shoes is the best pick
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TH Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
Yeah, I think I’m still stuck in the 80′s on the red shoes, which is the general trend in my fashion acceptance. Provocative and sexy is what comes to my mind, and that’s why I ask TW not to wear them to church. Maybe for regular outings they would be OK…
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Turtle Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 10:26 pm
Right on, TH! The red shoes prohibition is connected with super dated ideas about fashion- red shoes are spunky- like Jenna!
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August 11th, 2009 on 5:01 pm
I love what your dad said about TH. Right on. Andrew (my hubby) also has exactly the same feeling as TH about debt (credit card debt, to be precise). When we were dating and I disclosed to him that I had bad credit, I think he nearly fainted. He made certain that I regularly paid off all my CC bills every month in full before marrying me and we only use CCs for points and rewards. He made a budget and makes me stick to it, for the good of our future, not because he’s a tyrant. Hubby is always encouraging me, asking me to work out with him, because he wants us both to be healthy, not because he thinks I’m fat.
TH has always seemed like a principled man with integrity from what you’ve written about him, and you guys seem to balance each other out well, from what I read. Kudos to you for finding a good man who obviously loves you to pieces and is invested in the security of your future and stability of your relationship.
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August 11th, 2009 on 5:24 pm
Maybe people feel this way about him because of the way you present the compromises. Both examples you gave sounded like “TH Told me i need to do …” i truly believe these things were compromises between you two and maybe if you shared the change in the light of we decided as a couple and not he told me and then i agreed you would be able to portray him and the great relationship advice you are giving in a more effective way plus you could also share some of the techniques you use in the process of making these changes together.
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August 11th, 2009 on 5:33 pm
There is no doubt in my mind that your husband is “not a jerk.” I’m sure he’s polite and kind and sophisticated and everything you ever dreamed of when you were a little girl and thought about marriage. But the fact is, even men who are “not jerks” can be abusive. I know because I grew up with a father who was mentally and emotionally abusive to my mother, and to a much lesser degree, my sisters, brother and I. People he met on the street, at work, at church, at Boy Scout meetings, etc. etc. were impressed. They were charmed. He was as far from a jerk as you could get. People said I was lucky, lucky! to have a father like him.
But the fact is, I never went a day of my childhood, adolescence and much of my adulthood without worrying what he would think. Was I living up to his expectations? Was I good enough? Was I following all his rules just so? There’s a point where a healthy respect for your parents and their wishes turns into something damaging, crippling.
After nearly a year of therapy, I am finally beginning to feel liberated from that abuse. But I’ve also realized that it’s something that my own mother will probably never be able to break free from. And that breaks my heart in ways you cannot imagine.
This might sound completely off topic, but I’m telling this to you because I know you’re starting your own family and I don’t want your children, or anyone’s children for that matter, to go through the things my siblings and I went through.
I know you think a statement like “There isn’t anyone out there who could make me happier” is supposed to warm all our hearts, but in all honesty, it sickens me. There IS someone who CAN make you happier - and that person is YOU. YOU can be responsible for your happiness. You should be responsible for your own happiness, not leave it up to some man, any man, whether it be your husband, father, church leader, etc.
My husband wants to make me happy, sure, but he wants me to make me happier. He wants my happiness to come from within, from a sense of peace with myself that I’ve lacked most of my life. I feel very lucky (and my therapist is constantly marveling at the fact) that in the end, I didn’t continue the cycle of abuse. i didn’t marry someone like my father. And my children will never go through what I went through.
Good luck Jenna, I mean that from the bottom of my heart.
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Ashley (not the OP) Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
Thank you for saying this, Ashley.
It terrifies me that these two are planning on having children. They are going to grow up thinking that a relationship like their parents have is normal. I wish their children the luck of having a good therapist.
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Jenna Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
Actually our relationship isn’t that normal isn’t it? Because we communicate. And compromise. And you know what? Less divorce would happen if people would do that. Maybe “normal”, i.e. never giving in to any of your significant others requests, isn’t the best way to do things, is it?
Check back with us in 50 years Ashley. We can have this conversation, about how awful our marriage is then. I’d like to hear all about yours as well at that time!
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TH Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 10:36 pm
And again Ashley (not the OP), listen to yourself. If you read your comments, you will become more terrified for your own children.
They will grow up thinking that if you have a difference of opinion you should not listen to any of the other party’s arguments, assume they are liars, and start shouting insults to ensure you come out on top in the end.
Please Ashley, calm down and comment more when you can say something constructive.
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Kathryn Speyer Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
There are many types of relationships that are not “normal.” That doesn’t mean that they’re wrong. Listen to yourself.
Many relationships that ARE “normal” put children through years and years of therapy, too. Thanks “normal!”
If you ask me, “normal” can suck it.
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MrsW Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 8:51 am
You know, I disagree with both you, Ashley, and Jenna, about who can MAKE you happy. My husband and I have had many, many “discussions” (they started off as fights, have gotten better since
) about how we use the word make.
“You make me sad”
“You make me angry”
Whenever you say that, you are not taking responsibility for your own emotions and the consequent actions. Nobody can MAKE you do anything short of drug or hypnosis induced coercion or by killing you — neither of which TH has done.
So with that in mind, Jenna has never been truly MADE to do anything by TH. She decides, no matter what sort of pressure may be on her (and I think we can safely say that whatever pressure there is healthy and appropriate).
And honestly, according to both my beliefs and the ThatHousehold’s (though they are different in many respects), God is the one who is responsible for giving us the blessings in our life — He gave Jenna and TH to each other, so God is the one who makes both of them happy through the blessing of their spouse. And yes, God is exempt to the “can’t make me” rule — He’s God, He gets to do that.
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Hayley Marie Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 10:29 am
Are you serious with this comment? “It terrifies me that these two are planning on having children”?? You are worried about Jenna and TH sending their kids to therapy because they have chosen to build a home that will be a haven for their children and because they are trying to BOTH help each other to become better people? Heaven forbid a couple would do such a thing! TH isn’t asking Jenna to change her personality, her core beliefs etc etc, THEY are asking each other to change habits, unhealthy lifestyles or (gasp) shoes! AND as they have both said over and over, they can both say no! I’ve spent the last few years studying and working with women who are abused (emotionally and physically) and I couldn’t agree more with TH on the idea that calling this an abusive relationship trivializes those experiences of women who truly are abused!
I also have to say that although the entertainment point seems to be a sticking point out there, I whole heatedly agree! I want to be able to sit down on the couch with my husband at the end of the day and watch something we BOTH enjoy! To me it is about finding things you can do together. I want to be able to enjoy things with my children as well. I have always felt that I don’t want to have certain forms of entertainment (especially things that trivialize things important to me) in my home because I don’t want my children watching it.
Lastly (sorry this is getting long) but I do know TH and have become rather frustrated at the way he is being judged by those who do not know him. I knew him through church but he was also in my apartment complex and was part of a group I was lucky to call my friends. I saw the way he treated women who were around him, not only Jenna, but any girl he came in contact with. He was always the most kind and carrying person. I do not think TH could ever be an abusive person because he was the one standing up for girls who were treated poorly. More importantly though, I saw the way he treated his mother. I’ve always felt that if you want to know how a man will treat his wife, you should carefully watch how he treats his mother. There is no doubt in my mind that the relationship Jenna and TH share is a healthy one of give and take, but more importantly one of love and respect. It is quiet amazing to me how there are those of you who are seemingly quick to pass judgment on two people you don’t know.
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August 11th, 2009 on 5:37 pm
For me the weight issues and finance issues made sense in a partnership of marriage,and even the entertainment choices as well due to Jenna and TH being LDS. But the other random things- like not being able to wear a bright dress to church, or wear tights, or wear red lipstick, or red heels, or wear your hair a certain way- sometime make me stop and think “huh, that’s… disconcerting”. I don’t know how to describe it, other than those things, taken with the other things that don’t raise my suspicions, make me think “meh, I dunno- it could go one of two ways”. But, in the end, whichever way it goes for *me* doesn’t have to go for you.
I’m in a polyamorous relationship with three people. A lot of people think the male in our triad is using both of us girls, but all of us are free to come and go as we please, and date others as we like. A lot of people simply don’t understand that we have a non-traditional relationship style- they hear one guy and two girls and think “player!” while I’m thinking “this is the most honest, loving, open, satisfying relationship I’ve ever had!”. You and TH have a non-traditional (in terms of the mainstream) relationship style. To each his own. I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again- love has many, many different definitions, and as long as all parties are happy and healthy, not coerced, and willingly participating in that relationships it’s all good
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August 11th, 2009 on 6:03 pm
I have never thought TH came off as a jerk. I grew up in a very traditional household and saw how my parents worked together and sometimes changed certain things about themselves for one another and for the sake of our family. Now that I am married, I also understand this. My mother talks to me about it ALL of the time, reminding me marriage takes work and it’s two different people trying to build one united family. While dating I asked my husband to slow down on his smoking, when we became engaged and started talking about having a family I asked that he stop smoking and drinking-and he did, not because I asked, but because we both knew we didn’t want to raise our children in that type of a househould. If there is something I know he does not like or agree with, I tend to avoid doing it as well, out of respect and love for my husband, because I know he will do the same for me.
I’m glad TH responded to some of the comments about your weight. My husband has lost over 100 pounds in the last year. Some weeks he gains some, some weeks he loses some. When it comes down to it, like I’ve told him a million times, I would love him 100 pounds heavier just as much-but I want him by my side FOREVER…and therefore, we both are working on living a healthier lifestyle, so that we can run after our kids and hopefully someday our grandkids and whatever else our future may hold. I understand what TH means when he says he never wants to be on this Earth without you.
TH’s views on entertainment are also understandable. I don’t know how much I would be able to handle someone telling me not to watch certain tv shows, but at the same time his points are very valid. In fact, this morning my husband made a comment about the amount of tv I have been watching lately and asked that tonight when he came home we do something else instead.
Sorry for the long rant, I hope TH comes around and does let you wear red shoes every once in a while!
And thanks for sharing bits and pieces of your life with us and being such a classy and inspirational lady.
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August 11th, 2009 on 7:19 pm
I think that there is a lot going on this post (it has made me think all day!) First off, I agree with a lot of commenters in that I applaud you for you openness on this and other topics. I freely admit that I look forward to your new post every day (you are a blog crush of mine
)
That being said, you and I have incredibly different belief systems. I am a strong Massachusetts liberal who has deep, deep roots in feminism. I have no strong religious affiliations. I have volunteered women specific organizations that educate on women’s issues, violence, etc. That background being said, in reading your posts, I never came to the conclusion that TH was mentally abusive (which some other commentors appear to have gotten).
However, I will admit that I can see why people may think TH is a jerk when they read posts about him. It’s not that he is but may be the language you use when you talk about some issues (like the statement, he allows me…) To me it sounds reminiscent of a father chastising or controlling a child and not a marital partnership. In a blog, which is typically written colloquially, your own intonation is lost and a reader asserts their own tone into the piece which is where I think the meaning is confused. When there is a discrepancy in the words we are reading and the voice we have assigned to them, indignation sets in and we get all riled up.
Everyone who has been in a long-term relationship has had to change in some way shape or form. Setting guidelines, budgets, and common goals is essential to the success of a relationship. Now I am asserting my own thought here, but I would imagine that you and TH talked extensively about all of these guidelines not only before you got married but even now. I know I do with my own boyfriend. I also know that if we thought that one person was being unreasonable with those guidelines that the other person would not be afraid to speak up and assert why they thought something was unreasonable (TV choices, clothing budget, the need for Nintendo Wii, etc). I think that is what it really boils down to: is TH willing to listen to you when you find something unreasonable to live up to? In reading his comments to other posters, he doesn’t seem to be a relationship dictator. If he didn’t care what you thought or what the backlash would be, he wouldn’t have posted such detailed answers. That, to me, is a mark of someone who not only cares for you but someone who respects your creative outlet and thereby you. Congratulations!
(sorry this is so ridiculously long, I told you: All day! <3)
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August 11th, 2009 on 7:38 pm
I don’t see why it would bother TH for you to share some of the things he gave up for you. Not only would it help his case with a majority of your readers, but it would show TRUE compromise in a marriage & give strength to other marriages. Right now, you’re not really demonstrating compromise in a marriage because everything is so one-sided. Do you see what I mean? It *looks* a certain way so it IS a certain way in the online world. If I constantly talk about politics on my blog, I’m going to look like a political person. If I constantly talk about babies on my blog, people are going to assume I love babies. So if I constantly talk about all the things I’ve given up for B, people are going to think I’m overly submissive and dependent.
If these things are okay with you, then there is no reason to defend yourself with posts like this. It seems like the criticism is getting to you, and I highly doubt it’s going to end due to this post or any other explanation post. It’s only going to end if you start posting like you want to be perceived - which is that you have a two-way marriage full of compromise on both sides.
It really doesn’t say that much about TH’s private life to say, “He gave up _____ for me.” It basically just says he kicks ass, and not much more.
I guess what I’m saying in a roundabout way is that posts like these aren’t going to clarify nearly as much as if you just post how you live or otherwise accept all the negativity you’re going to get.
I hope TH lets you post a little more positively about him in the future, because so far you have said that all you’ve done is posted about him in praising type ways, and I have to strongly disagree.
PS) I think the media thing is kind of neat. I dated a guy who didn’t grow up watching TV at all and he was one of the smartest, most wholesome, funniest guys I’ve ever known (no where close to my husband - but you know ;D).
PPS) Some of the people who commented on this were pretty harsh :\ I’m so sorry that this is an unfortunate part of blogging.
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TH Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
From the comments it seems the post was clarifying to some commenters, and inflammatory to others, but I think overall it got a very positive response.
And you’re right, if TW gave you some details of my life and how I changed that would really help bring things to life. I alluded to one example in an earlier comment, but really the truth is that I’m not comfortable sharing the private areas of my life with people I don’t really know, and I would feel violated if TW did that. So she doesn’t do it because she respects me and knows how important it is to me. And I treat her in the same way, not doing things which would hurt her or upset her.
So, for better or for worse, you’re not going to get a lot more insight into me, but reading about TW is probably a lot more enjoyable unless you like management consulting.
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kay Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 11:17 pm
Yes, but we’re learning about you by reading between the lines, which was my exact point - she is telling all KINDS of personal (albeit not directly) information about you on here & people are making a lot of negative assumptions, unfairly. She doesn’t have to say “TH did this & that,” because she’s saying it in lots of other ways, without intending it to sound bad.
For example - I adore Jenna & her work, and she’s taught me a lot about photography & her religion. However, I will openly admit that you sound like a complete ass to me based on what she posts about you. And I’m fairly traditional in my marital views/gender roles.
Now I know those things aren’t true, but it doesn’t mean I don’t think them when I read some of her stuff.
I’m just trying to help her out in the sense that she’s going to get a lot of grief about this continuously, because people are basically making you up, since they don’t know anything about you. If people were accusing my husband of being abusive, I’m pretty sure he’d say I could post a few of the nice things he’d done for me / given up for me just so I could kind of clear the air. My husband is very private too, so I can understand kinda where you’re coming from.
All that being said - it’s really quite none of my business & I try not to get involved with marital type things
Marriage is too precious. I’ve really said too much to begin with. Blah.
I wish you & Jenna the best, really. <3
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Ashley Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 10:14 pm
Kay,
I’m pretty sure that TH from now on will probably be monitoring what TW is posting more closely, and “requesting” that she only post wonderful things about him. It seems to be the dynamic of their relationship- he says, she does.
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TH Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 10:29 pm
Again Ashley, it is fine to disagree and have strong opinions, but you’re moving to insults. In fact, you have become what you are accusing me of being - a jerk.
You are insulting me and my wife and you should really listen to what you’re saying. If that’s how you act in your relationships, I’m sorry to be the one breaking it to you, but you could be legitimately labeled as an abuser. The pattern is simple: when your arguments are not enough, you move to offenses to ensure you come out on top. It really sounds like it’s your way or the high way.
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MrsW Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 8:58 am
Ashley,
Or Jenna could decide that she really doesn’t care what faceless strangers on the internet think about her life and her husband, and choose to cater to the needs and respect the wishes of the man that she’s going to live with for the rest of this life, and in their beliefs, forever, over the whims of the internet public.
When did we decide that we have a RIGHT to know more about people’s lives than they choose to share? Grow up.
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Shell Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 12:00 am
I completely understand what Jenna is doing here. I don’t blog about my husband much, and I certainly try not to write about his faults or some conflict we are having. That seems incredibly disrespectful to my husband and our relationship. I wouldn’t want him writing about my flaws for the world to read.
That being said, I completely respect Jenna’s decision not to divulge details about TH. Leave it be.
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August 11th, 2009 on 7:41 pm
I did it - I read all of the comments! So my question - for a future blog post of yours - is how does all of this (making compromises for each other, talking about serious issues before you got engaged about things you’d like the other to work on/change) - how does that line up with your previous post about how many mormons only date for a few months and then are only engaged for a few months before they are married? It seems as though your dating and engagement period really helped the two of you ensure you were compatible and ensure you two a strong foundation - so what are your thoughts on others in your culture that seem to be moving at warp speed? Yeah - culture post!
And to comment on this post. If anyone is being honest with themselves, no partner wants their significant other to be overweight/out-of-shape. For no other reason than it is not attractive. Factor in Jenna’s health concerns - I really don’t see why people are surprised that TH is helping to provide some motivation/support for something you clearly wanted to do yourself - lose weight. The no-debt, seems like a no brainer. The entertainment, how you dress - you are the expert on your relationship, no one knows it as well as you do. If that’s what works for you, that’s great. (Though it sounds like you enjoy being fun and sassy - red shoes, colorful dresses - and it seems he doesn’t like it because it IS fun and sassy - which he may read as sexy - maybe that’s something for you two to keep discussing). Anyways, keep doing what works for you two. However, I’m not super curious about what TH has changed for you - my mind is going everywhere! - so if TH retires, becomes more extroverted, goes blind, really ticks you off, feel free to satisfy my curiosity! You procrastinated yesterday - and now I’m doing it! Back to work!
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Erin Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
Huge typo - I am “NOW” super curious about what TH has changed…
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August 11th, 2009 on 7:47 pm
WOW! I had read this post earlier and agreed with Jenna and didn’t feel the need to comment. However, when I had seen later that someone had said her husband didn’t love her, well, I had to check that out. Frankly, are people blind?! Are you so self-centered that you think commenting and sending e-mails to someone giving negative feedback, is really going to motivate a person to withdrawal to your opinion? Good grief!
Here’s my two whole cents. I’ve never met TH, nor do I really need to, in order to know the kind of man he is. I know Jenna well enough to know she would NEVER let someone just boss her around. I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say that the changes TH expected for Jenna, were ones that she already saw a need for in herself. I don’t know about you people, but debt isn’t exactly desirable to me. The fact that TH wanted as far away from it as he could (so to speak) is honorable and understandable. I’m sure that if the circumstances were different and there were things that were going to take time. I think (and this is utter speculation), TH would have taken the time to endure them. For instance (hypothetical), what if Jenna had been previously married to a complete loser who spent all her money and put her in debt. (Happened to my sister-in-law). I believe TH would have taken it for what it was and worked with the circumstances BECAUSE HE LOVES HER!!!!!!!! Maybe it would have taken longer to get married, but I think in the end it would have worked out. Again, all speculation. Please, Jenna and TH, correct me where I err.
When it came to the subject of weight, I was a little bit thrown off, but you know I get where he’s coming from. Especially, when Jenna said, “I want a attractive husband, why shouldn’t he want an attractive wife.” And please people. Try and tell me when you were in the dating stage you didn’t try and loose a few pounds to impress. MMmmmhhhmmmm. I thought so. I think that it was mostly, good motivation for Jenna. She wanted something and was given a limitation on it and she fulfilled her end of the bargain.
As far as the media goes, Way To Go TH! I’m not even close to being as strong as you are in that regard, though I definitely strive to be. There really is too much in the media all together that down plays the importance of a marriage and all that should only take place within it. Your values are commendable.
Personally, I think Jenna is better because of TH. That’s why they were asked to be able to work inside the temple. A place that they could only go, if they set for themselves those standards they choose to live by.
The End.
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August 11th, 2009 on 7:58 pm
I don’t want to quibble with the macro of this post, but I want to point out one way you phrased this that sort of gets my hackles up — but I think it’s probably in the phrasing rather than in the substance.
You say (with excerpts and caps lock in lieu of bold added): “[My father] spent a lot of time drilling into our minds the phrase “Don’t marry a man expecting to CHANGE him.” . . . When he popped the question I said yes because I believed that every CHANGE he had asked me to make so far had been for my own good, and/or the good of our relationship.”
As you describe it here, therefore, you believe that you can’t expect to change a man, but you CAN expect a man to change you. I, and I think a few commenters above, think that’s crazytown. I’m not sure, however, that it’s what you actually mean. I don’t have a problem with your statement that look, you’re comfortable talking about changes you’ve made, and don’t want to discuss changes he’s made since that’s his business, but trust me guys it’s very much a two-way street. That’s fine-my partner and I have absolutely made changes and sacrifices for each other. But the juxtaposition of “I can’t change him” and “I changed for him” is jarring, and I hope not what you mean.
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Ashley Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 10:11 pm
I’m sure that either TH or TW will come up with some rationalization for their double-talk.
You’re exactly on the mark here, TJ.
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TH Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 10:17 pm
Alright Ashley, it is fine to disagree and have strong opinions, but you’re moving to insults, and frankly your comments are moving from unconstructive to appaling. “They will come up with some rationalization for their double-talk”? Come on.
I certainly hope you have someone in your life who can tell you to change because you are in dire need of a reprimand.
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(a different) Ashley Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 10:52 pm
“in dire need of a reprimand”?
Thank you for proving Ashley’s point for her.
As an adult, as a WOMAN, I am SO offended on behalf of Jenna that her husband would even suggest that another woman would be “in dire need of a reprimand.” Frankly, it’s disgusting.
I hope you learn to respect women before you ever have a daughter.
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TJ Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 11:04 pm
“Reprimand” also put me off, but I am trying to give TH the benefit of the doubt and assume that it is because english is his second language, and he may not grasp the connotations of “reprimand.”
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TH Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 11:10 pm
I thought reprimand is to censure as in “The deputy reprimanded the Prime Minister.” That’s what the dictionary says anyway.
And it’s actually not a sexist issue for me. If I were acting like Ashley (apparently another Ashley, but I’m not sure anymore because she tried to hide her identity and now you’re replying as if you’re her), I would expect TW to reprimand me as well. Her comments have moved to insulting and in no way constructive, so someone needed to stop the abuse.
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Lillindy Reply:
August 11th, 2009 at 11:13 pm
I don’t want to jump into the argument or anything, but Ashley, no one is forcing you to read this blog and if you are so disgusted by what you are reading here, then why do you stick around?
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August 11th, 2009 on 8:11 pm
I am married to a very “principaled” Mormon man. It is a challenge and one of those things I don’t entirely think anyone can truly grasp unless you know one yourself! And one of those things that was hard for me to understand about him was that he lived his life according to the gospel, in all times, all places and all ways. Granted, he is human but his faith and his beliefs guide his entire life, give him a foundation, are his compass.
He has a lot of pateince and understanding towards me, someone who did not grow up in the gospel, and it took me years to understand this side of him.
Before we got married, he told me that if I was going to drink alcohol, this was never going to work. He wouldn’t marry me if that was a part of my life. Wouldn’t even date me if I drank. And to break that all down, it was never going to work if I didn’t understand his values. If what was truly important to him, was unimportant to me. And isn’t that true for all of us?
And instead of “Don’t marry a man expecting him to change”… one of my relationship mantras is “The only person I can change is myself”. My husband constantly makes me a better person by challenging me to live a better life. And I do the same. I can’t make him lose weight but, I can make healthy meals and exercise and be a good example.
And I’m proud that you’re living the don’t air your dirty laundry lifestyle- it is the healthiest thing anyone can do for a marriage. I try my best and only once in a while ever grumble about my marriage but, it does a whole lot better when I keep it to myself.
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Katy Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 1:47 am
I love that “the only person I can change is myself.” That is a great quote! I’m going to write that down…
We tend to expect the other person to change first and THEN we’ll change when there is a problem or issue in a relationship. But if we want success in a relationship, we can choose it by changing the aspects that we have control over - ourselves and our treatment of our spouse/SO.
Thanks for sharing that quote.
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August 11th, 2009 on 8:25 pm
I’m honestly confused as to why readers are so angry or made so many assumptions about TH. Jenna, I encourage you and support you for honesty about you and areas of your marriage.
I’m a city girl from NYC, liberal, Buddhist, and as independent as can be. A no debt policy is a beautiful thing! Anyone who has ever had to work hard, had debt or grew up with very little can value that. If the divorce rate is 60% and they are often attributed to money issues, then why is a no debt policy considered abusive? My husband and I have been really disciplined with our finances as well. WE have spreadsheets, etc.
As for tv shows, I will (although we don’t have cable anymore) watch almost everything under the sun, but I think Jenna has valid examples. I think it was Oprah who once said that she doesn’t watch tv because most of it, in some way or another, puts women down and I can’t agree more. The attitudes on tv regarding women, their physical appearance, their attitudes, the roles women take on in the home and at work are always skewed! I feel like when ppl watch those shows, including children, often pick up those attitudes and I don’t think it’s right, so there’s nothing wrong with sweeping those in the trash where they belong.
For us, health is a concern. My husband was born with cerebral palsy. Working out is a way of life and weight gain can hinder his daily acitivities. On the other hand, dh has told me he probably wouldn’t have dated me if I were heavy and vice versa. What’s wrong with that? It’s part of dating and choosing a mate.
Anyway..I could go on and on.
From our experience, we both have very high expectations of ourselves and therefore each other. Everything I do, I take it to the max, so I expect that from my husband as well. My husband also expects things of me. The truth is, we can’t always meet each others expectations if you will. Your expectations will be different. You will have differing opinions. So although you have things you won’t let slide, also remember to allow yourselves to have faults and be forgiving in those areas as well.
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August 11th, 2009 on 8:35 pm
A truly healthy and enriching partnership is one in which the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. I disagree with the Mr. Rogers philosophy that some have touted, because the idea of what Jenna and TH have isn’t forcing someone to change so they could be loved. Its encouraging them to be better people, based on the standards and criteria of their culture (whether that’s the Polish-American, Seattle, Provo, Mormon, or another cultural influence).
This post so reminded me of Ephesians 5, in particular verse 21, which is one of my favorites. If people who are new to the Scripture start to read it, I beg you not to read it literally and start shouting feminism at me. But there is something so beautiful about two people submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ and recognizing the greater power of a relationship over individual desires.
Love your posts Jenna. Are you still looking to book shoots in NYC in September?
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August 11th, 2009 on 8:39 pm
I am constantly amazed at your ability to articulate yourself so clearly. It is truly a gift Jenna! I think it’s a fabulous trait in a partner and in a relationship to be honest and truthful, even if sometimes hearing things are difficult. Having someone who will stand up for you and also stand up to you are good things in a give and take relationship.
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August 11th, 2009 on 11:40 pm
Jenna,
I think your post is very honest and true, and I’m so glad that you and TH stand up for what you believe and even allow free discussion on your blog to discuss your points. Every marriage is so different and the belief system that each will adhere will also be so different. I think the beauty of your marriage is not any particular *rules or regulation - give ups or what not*. Rather that your marriage is based on real committment and honest discussion of how it’s going to work out, prior to making the big leap. While attraction and lust should be some part of a healthy relationship, it’s honestly should not be the ultimate base of a marriage. It’s about building a lifetime together with one other person, a partner. In order to do that, you should have a firm understanding or tolerance of your partners’ belief. If not, a lifetime can easily turn into just a “two year time” or however long it takes for you to realize that you can’t live with this other person and divorce is the next door down. TH, it seems, really meditated on the desires of his heart of what good marriage looked like for him, and Jenna in her own desire to have a good marriage aligned herself to those things. I think that is AWESOME and take more strength than you can imagine to give up these truly trivial aspects in sacrifice of a beautiful strong marriage. I see it as no different than TH asking her to give up porn, swearing, or smoking, if those were what vices. Anyways, in my own marriage, I truly hope my husband and I can continue to be dynamic with each other, that we can continuously egg each other on to be better people, instead of just “loving each other just the way we are”… Thanks Jenna,for a brave post.
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August 11th, 2009 on 11:52 pm
On a tangential different note, I’d like to push back on the idea of not watching any media that you don’t think is appropriate for children. I agree that there are things that are appropriate for children and for adults, but I don’t think the solution is to reduce your whole world down to a level appropriate for the lowest common denominator of a relatively young age for children. In conversation with a 10-year old child, I wouldn’t routinely use words that I use in conversation with friends my own age (I don’t mean swear words; just that I wouldn’t throw out relatively sophisticated words with the frequency that I use them in conversation with adults). That doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t use words that a 10-year old wouldn’t understand at all when I was at home.
I would argue, moreover, that I think my approach comes from as protective an intention as yours. My parents didn’t listen to music on the radio or let me watch much TV at home when I was a young child (it was Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers for us), and I come from an extremely socially liberal household. I plan on replicating that experience with my own children. But I think there is something of value to acknowledging the border between children and adult worlds, rather than trying to move the adults into the child’s world. There are things that children shouldn’t be exposed to when they’re young, and that’s good. But I think it is also valuable for children to know the adult world is out there — not in a “forbidden fruit” sense, but because it can teach them how to interrogate the adult world as they start to move into it. When I finally saw television stations other than PBS, I was aware, for example, of what advertising was, what it was meant to do, and had enough of a critical eye to ask why commercials wanted to sell me things and how they were trying to do it. When I finally saw an R-rated movie, I had a long history of discussing treatment of women and sexuality and violence with my parents. I understand that there are borders that you probably wouldn’t ever cross, but I would think there are movies or television shows that you would find unobjectionable for adults that wouldn’t be appropriate for children, and I think that it is important for children to understand the process of maturing as well as being shielded from inappropriate things.
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TH Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 12:19 am
TJ, I think you bring up some really valid points, and I actually don’t know what research says about the best methods. I won’t speak for my wife here, but my stance comes from two sources: my religious beliefs and personal experiences.
First, my religious beliefs guide my choices in what I consider “good.” Growing up I wasn’t religious, and “good” was equivalent to entertaining, so I watched whatever I liked. Now, I’m careful to eliminate things that I believe are offensive to God. In the LDS faith we have fairly clear guidelines as to avoiding R-rated movies, sexual innuendo, swearing, violence, etc. So that’s the guide for me.
Second, the question is how to raise my kids to help them follow that guide and even more importantly prepare them to choose a guide for themselves. I don’t know the fullness of your parents’ method, but I don’t think it would work on me, and my best guess is that my kids are going to be a personality mix of me and my wife. So if I were born as your brother, I would probably see an R-rated move a couple of days after being told to avoid it. In my mind, if my parents were doing something and I wasn’t allowed, it was a sure sign of conspiracy, and I was almost never disappointed in what I discovered behind their backs. And even if I could do whatever I wanted behind their backs, it still really frustrated me when they told me I couldn’t watch something when they could. So my guide is really based on my knowledge of what would work for me personally as a child, and what would have an adverse effect.
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Turtle Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 8:24 am
Just to add fodder for thought, TH. My husband’s parents pretty much follow your rule of thought- they don’t watch anything that a child (of a certain age) couldn’t watch. And I’ll be honest, my husband who is a curious stubborn intelligent person (much like I think you are saying you are) rejected them and many of their beliefs (not LDS) because he felt like they were constricting his world view all the time and denying him the information he so craved to make the choice to believe as they believed. I am not saying it’s hopeless- I know many parents who raise their children successfully in their belief system, but I just throw out that the top commenter might have a point.
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TH Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 9:34 am
In the end, kids will always have their choice. I was just saying that in my childhood the double standard really added a flame to the fire, and from my talks with TW it was a similar case with her, so we are just trying to remove that factor and not steer them in a direction we don’t wan them to go. Whatever our kids will end up following will be their choice.
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August 12th, 2009 on 12:23 am
This is an interesting post! And it is drawing quite a number of responses - wow. I viewed the post as a very honest account of the relationship between TH and TW. In the end, I see them as a couple who are trying to better themselves and each other. Sometimes that “bettering” process is not easy nor is it nice. Honesty can sometimes be harsh. But I think Jenna is a smart enough woman to know what she was getting herself into when she married TH. And vice versa. It seems you are both comfortable with your relationship. I don’t see anything wrong with how you approach things - as long as it works for both of you. We all make compromises to be with the person we are with. TH and TW are being very honest, maybe even more honest than I am willing to be about my own relationship/marriage at times. Wow - did I just admit that?! I may live my life differently than Jenna and TH. I may or may not have been raised differently. But, ultimately, I am glad I read this thread. I learned a few things. Thank you!!
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August 12th, 2009 on 12:53 am
Jenna and TH - at the end of the day, no one knows what goes on in your home besides the two of you. I don’t know either of you besides what you have put forth in this blog. As a divorced single mother (from an abusive relationship), reading about your adventures as a newly married couple has been very informative and educational to me.
I greatly admire that you are both very committed to improving and furthering your relationship. The fact that you both discuss what’s bothering you or what you’d like to improve about your lives? That’s amazing! It’s what was missing in my marriage, and I hope one day to find a man who is willing to be an equal partner in a marriage, as it sounds like the two of you are.
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August 12th, 2009 on 1:05 am
One more comment - as a second-generation American raised by immigrant parents, I can see that a lot of TH’s views may definitely be because he wasn’t raised an American … if anything, he’s what we’d consider “old school”. Nothing wrong with that, just a different way of thinking than we’re used to.
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August 12th, 2009 on 1:20 am
Jenna, as always I love your honesty. I also want to say that I can relate. FH is a great guy who, if I had to describe in one word, that word would be honest. Honest to a fault… I’ve learned that I can’t love him for his honest but also fault him for it. I also struggle with a weight problem and we had a HUGE fight before we were engaged about my weight. FH also doesn’t like when I wear dresses, we get in fight over this all the time too. I am by no means the type of girl who lets someone tell her what to do or live her life, but I’ve made compromises b/c I love FH and I wanted to be with him and make him happy. I watch my weight and exercise b/c it makes ME healthier and I like the way I look, but also b/c FH likes the way I look. I wouldn’t want him to gain 50 lbs, so I can’t get mad at him for not wanting me too. I have a few ppl in my life that get mad at him for not liking me in dresses and not wanting me to wear them. To be honest, I look at the relationships they have w/ their SO and that isn’t a relationship I would want to have… they fight more often and the women are very controlling and usually quit mean.
I think ppl that don’t understand (think TH or FH are jerks) have never been in a healthy relationship or are/have been in pretty one-sided relationships.
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August 12th, 2009 on 1:22 am
I’d like to point out one very big thing that just occurred to me- if TH was really a crazy controlling dude, would he let Jenna have a “manmaid”? Would he be ok with her seeing Trevor- is that his name?- when she went to SLC, and having her say that after TH he was her favorite boy, and that every girl needs a little Trevor in her life? Yeah, doesn’t sound very controlling to me
To me, the openness of the love Jenna has for Trevor- haha, I’ve named him that even if it isn’t his name, sorry!
- speaks *volumes* as to the true nature of Jenna and TH. I have totally liberal, atheist friends who requested that their husbands/wives, girlfriends/boyfriends give up their opposite sex friendships because it was “inappropriate” now that they were married. When I read about her manmaid, and saw the lunch post they had, I thought of what a lucky girl she was to be able to continue in that closeness with her friend.
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August 12th, 2009 on 2:55 am
Jenna,
What an interesting post with an overwhelming response. I will admit there have been some things you have posted that have raised my eyebrows a bit. However, there is a huge difference between “I am not allowed to” and “my husband prefers I don’t”. People have accused me of being in a controlling relationship in the past because when I was apathetic towards something, I would go where my FH was flowing; given how much we have changed since we got together 6 years ago, I know he had a huge influence on me, but he has not been the only factor in who I am today. Yet, I also know a girl who used the word “allowed” and I saw completely change her lifestyle, and struggle with the expectations her partner had within their relationship (she is now starting the divorce process).
I think what some people may be struggling with in reading your blog is the one-sided-ness; we read in detail all the changes or sacrifices you have made, but we will never hear TH’s side of the story. I respect you for writing about whatever you want, and having faith that your readers will either accept that fact, or stop reading. I know in my personal relationship, I have asked FH how he feels about me blogging about issues we have dealt with, or even discussing things with close friends; he says that he prefers that I discuss anything that is bothering me with him first, and the rest of the world after it has been resolved-oh, sweet communication in a relationship.
Jenna, I applaud for taking on such a serious and personal topic so directly. The fact that you have the communication in your relationship to say, “Honey, some people think you’re a jerk,” is something that many couples may never achieve.
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August 12th, 2009 on 4:57 am
Jenna, I think you have handled this really well. I also think that some well-meaning people have obviously not thought to contextualise a lot of what you say. I come from a completely different background to you and many of your decisions contrast starkly with those that I will make in my life, I don’t for one second judge them or think they are unhealthy.
I actually went back and read some of your old That Girl and That Bride posts (I tend to like to get ‘history’ with all blogs I read regularly so I ‘get’ their context). In those you had a tendency to be more candid about TH so I have always interpreted a lot of what you say about him with that CONTEXT in mind.
I also think that people forget that your perspective on a lot of things is heavily shaped by your religion. You consciously married someone with your religious views and who, from what I can gather, adhered to some principles more strictly than you necessarily have in past. It seems natural to me that you would want to follow his lead as common interests and beliefs are an integral part of a lasting union.
On the finances issue, I think the key issue here is that TH is the breadwinner. That alone made me put aside any feeling that he was domineering financially. I know that M has sat me down and told me that learning to save, learning to budget and getting my (admittedly small) debts in order and my credit rating improved are very important to him as we look to take the next step in our relationship. For us, that next step is living together and then marriage in 1-2 years. The point is, he wants to marry me but he has expectations from me financially and feels it is important to discuss that now and not down the track when it has become a point of contention between us. I think TH had nothing more than good sense in mind when approaching issues of finance with you.
I agree with both you and TH about weight. Weight impacts on one’s physical attractiveness, mental well being as well as one’s health. M used to be very overweight in his teens worked hard to lose the weight. If I had met him when he was very large, I would not have been attracted to him physically. He said if he met me at a very large size, he would not have been physically attracted to me either and he is honest that this would have impacted on whether we would have ended up together. The other issue is health. We are both happier people when we are at our optimal weights and fitness levels. I have always thought your honesty about weight is great, Jenna. I think the fact that you and TH are honest with each other about weight from a physical attractiveness perspective AS WELL as a health perspective says a lot about the honesty in your relationship.
As for the entertainment issue, while it would not be my personal choice. I see this very much as a function of your religious beliefs and therefore makes sense to me. I always got the impression from the outset that your decision not to watch certain programs was about striving towards TH’s standards rather than him enforcing them on you.
I have written a freakin’ essay here, but I guess my point is that people seem to avoid reading between the lines when reading your blog and don’t contextualise a lot of what you say about TH. I can admit that without employing some depth of thinking one might feel that you put him on a pedestal but your references on TG, TB and TW blogs make clear that he is a private person and that airing the entirety of him online would put a strain on your marriage and make him uncomfortable. I don’t think that you need to do that to make some readers happy, when all they really need to do is read between the lines. It is pretty obvious that TH adores you and is supportive (hello, photography career?) and that use of one’s brain and some contextualising skills would go far in making them realise that your relationship, from the outside, does not look abusive at all.
I also want to agree 100% with TH that ranting about the so-called abusive nature of your relationship really trivialises the experience of women who are emotionally, physically and sexually abused in their marriages. I have experienced emotionally abusive control in a relationship and it sure isn’t evident here in my opinion.
Sorry for the essay, I just feel quite strongly about this obviously!
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August 12th, 2009 on 7:50 am
OK, I didn’t read all the comments, so i don’t know what people said, BUT I know how amazingly cool your husband is. He is one of the nicest guys at a certain company that starts with B. When Forrest and I first met him we thought “that guy is super cool - if only he were married so we could hang out” haha. And he reminds me a lot of Forrest. He has high standards and I find that in our marriage he has lifted me up at times and I have lifted him up with my high standards in other things. We think TH is awesome!
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August 12th, 2009 on 7:50 am
So, your dad gave you the advice not to marry a man expecting to change him, but it’s fine if the MAN changes YOU?
Get out of there. Your husband IS a jerk.
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Kathryn Speyer Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 1:14 pm
She’s already explained that she accepts TH making some limits for her and that she, in turn, makes limits for him. It’s obvious that this is something they have mutually agreed upon: a consensual decision between adults.
It might make you uncomfortable, but your opinion is only an opinion and you cannot state for a fact that TH is a jerk or that their relationship is somehow “wrong.”
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August 12th, 2009 on 9:14 am
There are so many red flags and triggers over your whole past with your husband, I sincerely hope that you take a look back at them all and re-consider your stance, because he is a jerk and a controlling one at that.
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August 12th, 2009 on 9:21 am
TH- I love how you jump in here and add your thoughts and show us the other side. I may not be the same religion as you.But I believe in so many aspects of your relationship. I love how you support TW with her weight and you are honest. I think honesty has gone out the window in this world and people can no longer hear the truths about ourselves even if it isn’t positive. Do you have standards that you want TW to reach yes, but you don’t seem to throw them in her face you support her and make her feel better and able to reach the goals. I commend you both for the comments you have made to each other. I can tell that there is also things TW has asked of you and you have in turn changed or working on them. I love the way you believe “garbage in garbage out” in your viewing habits. I believe that 100%. Just because society doesn’t agree it makes people attack. Just like they always do to things that are different to what they believe are normal. I have been in a very abusive relationship/marriage it was horrible. This seems so far from one. You guys seem like a Godly loving couple that wants to hold yourself to a higher standard. Keep up being a great roll model to the rest of the world. TH-Great job at being honest and supporting to your wife even on the hard subjects. Same goes to TW. I know that I am just a reader on her blog but I admire you beliefs and you comment to each other and your future.
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August 12th, 2009 on 9:27 am
Hey, Jenna-
I just wanted to let you know that I think your husband sounds like a great guy!
When I read about his want for you to get out of debt and maintain a healthy weight, I thought, “Wow, I wish I had someone pushing me to be a better version of myself.”
Isn’t being debt-free and in good shape a goal for everyone? I don’t know a single person who wants to be overweight or burdened with crazy bills every month.
And further, I’m not LDS, and I don’t even go to church. But I was raised by Christian parents and have seen my parents’ love for each other, and I believe that a healthy marriage is based on a wife submitting to her husband.
For everyone who thinks that goes against women’s rights, God also clearly intends for a husband to do what’s best for his wife.
Sounds to me like TH is a smart guy, and anyone, including me, would be lucky to have someone in their life who supports them and encourages them to better themselves.
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August 12th, 2009 on 9:44 am
I think that both TW and TH are very very honest in their relationship with each other. Why is it that so many couples are divorcing these days? Lack of honesty and communication! It seems as though TW knew before they got married that this is how TH was…so that’s not abusive…she knew what she was getting into and she’s happy with that. TH is right…attractiveness is a pretty big part of a relationship. Without physical chemistry, it just won’t work and you’re naive if you think otherwise. I guess it sounds rude, but it’s the truth. He wants her at her healthiest…what’s so wrong with that? I love your posts and I love your blog and try not to pay too much attention to naysayers…it’s your marriage and as long as you’re truly happy with it, that’s all that matters.
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August 12th, 2009 on 10:16 am
I havne’t read all of these comments, yet, but wanted to say that no one can make another person change. The person has to decide to change. There could be ultimatums, threats, or gentle encouraging and support. Either way, no one changes except by deciding to and making the effort to do so.
Live and let live as much as possible. For me, this includes knowing that there’s no way I can understand someone else’s relationship dynamic.
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August 12th, 2009 on 10:35 am
So you’re not forcing him to change but he’s forcing you to change? How is that okay?
I don’t care if his reasons can be explain away by your religion, forcing you to change stupid little meaningless habits is controlling. I expect him to make rude comments about your weight if Heaven forbid you should get pregnant.
Your husband IS a jerk.
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August 12th, 2009 on 10:48 am
Don’t let negative comments bring you down! What is important is that YOU are happy, YOU are secure in you relationship, and YOU understand and are ok with the changes that your husband is asking you to make.
Your choices are personal and only in a perfect world would everyone agree with everything you have to say.
Continue to be strong and hold your head high!
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August 12th, 2009 on 10:50 am
Why are you expected to change and bend to your husband’s will and ways, and yet you assert that you shouldn’t marry a man expecting *him* to change for you? Are women the ones who must accommodate to the man? Hellloooo, 19th-century gender dichotomy.
Your husband implicitly (and rather explicitly) picks on you for your weight. This is certainly NOT healthy, and, trust me, his concern for your physical appearance has nothing to do with his concern for your health. Mental health is also important. Being told to “lose weight” serves only to lower one’s self-esteem and self-worth. What if you can’t lose the weight? What then? What if you just gain more? To make you feel loved, all he needs to say is “I love you,” NOT “You’re a lard-ass. Hit the stairmaster, darlin’.”
If he were honestly concerned about your weight, your husband should probably say something more along the lines of “Hey, let’s go to the gym together!” See? By agreeing to improve his own body as well, he’s putting himself in his wife’s shoes too - and it becomes something that they can do together and BOTH become healthy.
The fact that you see nothing wrong with this and are perfectly content and *happy as can be!* is alarming and, quite frankly, frustrating.
But whatever works for you, I guess.
-Nick J.
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August 12th, 2009 on 11:25 am
Jenna -
I have always gotten the impression that you and TH have a very strong, loving, god-centered relationship. The end of this post is absolutely sweet. Thanks for being so honest and open.
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August 12th, 2009 on 11:32 am
I apologize for not commenting sooner, but I really enjoyed this post. I never once thought TH was a jerk or anything that other people are saying. From the very little we know about him, he has also given up a lot in the relationship. That’s what relationships are about. The things that he has asked TW to change or improve on, are for her benefit as well.
Thanks Jenna, for again, putting yourself out there! It irritates me that there are always a few people who ruin it for everyone else. This time they are ruining the part of my day when I read your new posts, which are always a bright part of my day!
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August 12th, 2009 on 11:40 am
I just wanted to throw this in, after all these comments: as hard as it is, please try to ignore the haters.
I’ve been in a couple of situations where people have tried to convince me that I’m not happy in my marriage because we don’t make a lot of money, or we like music that’s not “cool” (um, we listen to a lot of bluegrass. I promise we’re not 80), or our hopes for the future (we want to move to the country!)are drastically different from what is “normal” for the urban twentysomething set.
And sometimes it’s worked.
I have found myself looking at my life, and wondering, “don’t I deserve piles of money, and a condo with a lake view, and a designer dog, and tropical vacations? Is he holding me back from what I really want?”
And the answer is no, I don’t deserve those things. I don’t even want them. OTHER PEOPLE think that I SHOULD want them, and they’re weirded out that I don’t. He’s not holding me back from anything. He’s helping me realize my/our unusual dreams.
But that’s really hard to explain to other people, so I’ve generally stopped trying.
You are brave for trying to explain. But people either get it (lots of friendly comments above, worth re-reading, especially from the folks who know TH in real life) or they don’t. I’m sorry that those who don’t are spiteful.
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August 12th, 2009 on 11:41 am
I find it amazing that people think they can pass judgement on your marriage. While I may not agree with the presentation from TH (and honestly, what do I know of the presentation but what TW has told me, which is one-sided) he has every right to make “deal-breakers.” I told my now-husband on our third date that if he had no interest in getting married and having children there was no point in us dating. That was a deal breaker for me. Does that make me domineering? I don’t think so. It makes my expectations clear to both parties. Weight (especially for women) and finances (especially for men) are often big deals in marriage. Have I been offended the few times my husband has said something about my weight? Yes. But mostly embarrassed. Because he was right and he knew I was unhappy and unhealthy and he was concerned for me. Did it make me mad when he questioned my spending habits? Yes, but he wants to purchase a home and he wants me by his side as his partner to assist in that. Do I drive him nuts when I tell him to get off the couch and do something productive on his day off? Absolutely, but he knows I’m right because if he doesn’t all he does is complain about how bored he is and what a wasted day it was. Marriage is about compromise. It’s about the give and take. Somedays on somethings you will give more than your husband, on other days he returns the favor. But I defy anyone who would dare to judge my marriage based on the few glimpses they get of it through my blog. Because quite frankly if I’m happy and I’m healthy and I’m not getting the crap beat out of me it’s none of your business. TW and TH you have found partners in each other that WORKS for you. You are both happy in your situation. What the rest of the world thinks doesn’t matter because at the end of the day, it’s just the two of you.
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August 12th, 2009 on 11:52 am
I think a few of your commenters might be missing a crucial point. It’s is one thing to TELL someone to change something. It is QUITE ANOTHER to have your own set of standards and communicate those standards to your partner, to take or leave. I actually think this is a good example of having healthy boundaries. For example, I’d never date a man who smoked. I also wouldn’t want to date a man who didn’t make an effort to be healthy and stay in shape. I don’t want to date a man who watches porn. Etc. Etc. Too many people don’t talk about those sorts of things, and I think this is a great example of two people communicate about their standards/boundaries and work together in a partnership. And the standards each of you have for each other are HEALTHY, or things that help you grow in your faith or as a human being. I don’t see anything wrong with that at all! In fact, I think it means you guys each have a strong sense of self and are willing to talk to each other about it.
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Marissa Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
I totally agree
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August 12th, 2009 on 11:59 am
First, I have to say that I think that Jenna changing her spending and weight are wonderful, no matter what the motivation was. It sounds like she had some serious issues in both of those areas and I agree with TH that she really needed to change her ways and I am glad he convinced her to do so. Overall, from what Jenna has said on her site, she seems like a very immature girl who depended on her parents and had no real responsibilities until she was married and therefore now depends on her husband. She did not seem to have an idea of what real life was like until she was married and therefore I am glad she has a strong, responsible husband that recognizes how to build a financially stable marriage. Without him, they would probably be in thousands of dollars of debt! I think Jenna is truly happy in her marriage and feels safe and secure to still have someone else taking care of her and handling the important responsibilities like a full time job and being the breadwinner - that is a lot of pressure on TH. I think Jenna is happy in the wife/mother role, husband makes all the decisions, and another type of relationship where she has to make serious decisions and be responsible for her own life would not work for her. I think this statement from her “about us” sums up her goals pretty well, “I am finishing up my degree in English through the distance learning program at BYU a prove to my husband that I will actually finish I plan on getting the one thing I want most, a baby.”
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MrsW Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Lindsey — tried to give you the benefit of the doubt on the other post, but repeating yourself verbatim on two different posts proves that you are out for the attention you can get off of being petty and passive-aggressive. Go troll elsewhere.
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TH Reply:
August 12th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
This type of marriage would be a nightmare for me. I wanted a strong independent wife because that’s my upbringing and I loved it growing up, and TW is just that. There are a couple of years in between us, but we both wear the pants in this family, and I wouldn’t have it any other way.
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August 12th, 2009 on 12:58 pm
I didn’t see anything wrong in your post, especially in the context of your religion.
At first glance, the viewing habit issue may seem controlling, but I really don’t think it is. It is a standard your husband set to make himself a more holy person, and obviously you agree with that.
As Catholics, my fiance and I have set standards for ourselves that would seem crazy to other people, but they are deeply ingrained in our beliefs. One of these is using NFP and no artificial birth control. Some commenters probably think it is shocking and unhealthy that we are doing this, but for us it is a integral part of our religion that has already made us stronger as a couple. As long as you are both on the same page about these things, I really don’t see a problem.
As a Catholic, I firmly believe that the purpose of marriage is to help get your spouse to heaven-I’m going to do everything loving I can to do that, even if it is hard.
As for the weight issue (I’m probably about as overweight as Jenna), my fiance has told me I will be beautiful to him no matter what, but I would kill for the committed support Jenna has. My fiance makes an effort to work out with me, but he’ll eat chocolate with me too!
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August 12th, 2009 on 1:09 pm
Jenna, I really appreciate this post. And, I have to say, I do not find it offensive that TH actively discusses your weight with you. A lot of commenters have mentioned the health/aging benefits of staying at a healthy weight, but I’m going to go ahead and mention another aspect.
I have gleaned from some of your posts (like the one on pornography, for example) that one of your dealbreaker requirements for marriage is total sexual fidelity from TH, both in mind and in body. I think that’s a perfectly reasonable requirement for marriage, but I also think it is completely within bounds for TH to expect that you will make all your best efforts to be physically appealing to him. I’m sure you would have the same expectations for him. I don’t think it’s wrong for either of you to acknowledge that in order to have an active, healthy, totally monogamous sexual relationship, maintaining sexual attraction is a key point. I think people tend to react to such things by thinking, “he should love you just the way you are!”, but loving someone is not the only factor in a sexual relationship. It’s reasonable to want the only person you’ll ever think of sexually again to be appealing to you.
I could be totally wrong about all this, of course, and I hope you don’t find it rude that I’ve presumed some things about a very personal part of you life-I just wanted to say that I think you and TH have a beautiful, communicative, strong, and healthy marriage, with normal expectations of each other.
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August 12th, 2009 on 1:56 pm
Wanting you to maintain a budget and be healthy and fit makes TH a jerk? That is ridiculous. From where I stand, it looks like TH keeps a household budget so he can take his wife to fancy dinners at expensive restaurants every month, go on Christmas vacations to Poland, and make sure they can afford to buy a beautiful home some day. From where I stand, it looks like TH wants TW to be physically fit so she doesn’t further injure her back and so she can always be energetic enough to play with or chase future children (or him!),
No worries Jenna. While both “Ashley” and TH are opinionated, they is an immense difference between them. TH takes a look at things and examines the value they add to his life. If he determines better info can be sought elsewhere, he moves on (like with particular newspapers). Ashley on the other hand, finds a blog she disagrees with and spends 6 months reading and making hateful comments. Who is the jerk in that comparison? (And by the way….6 months!! Seriously chick, get a life)
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August 12th, 2009 on 2:12 pm
I have huge problems with mormonism, and I lot of times I get really upset with and/or offended by the things you post, but that’s my personal opinion. Frankly, who cares what I think about your life or relationship, if you are both happy and make it work that’s great.
I know you’re really hurt by what some people have said, but I think that when you put yourself out there as you have done, you’re going to get negative response. You talk about sensitive topics, and people have really strong opinions about those topics. The only way to prevent that is to censor comments or censor the content of your posts.
People will disagree with you and the way you live your life, sometimes vehemently. Part of growing up (not saying you’re not grown up at all, I think it takes a lifetime) is being able to accept that other people may think you suck, and that’s ok. Let them have their opinions, you won’t change them, and they don’t have to change you.
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August 12th, 2009 on 2:19 pm
Jenna, I think you are fantastic. You do not have to justify your marriage to anyone. You share your life and experiences with us, but you owe us nothing, so don’t let anyone get you down. You and TH are adorable! Keep up the posting! <3
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August 12th, 2009 on 2:26 pm
I’m in the same situation with you, except swapped. I am TH and Rob is TW. I have very strict standards, rules, and am insane crazy about the details of those rules. People say that Rob is whipped, he does everything I ask without batting an eye. Rob says that for him, he doesn’t see what’s wrong with doing things for me when I ask or changing his habits. I’m not asking him to change who he is at the core or his beliefs. I think TH would be controlling if he was changing who you are as a person, but he seems to be supportive of the things that make you happy at the core, fulfilled. Cutting out TV shows takes no effort at all, and if it makes him happy, then why not? It isn’t changing who you are, you still love the shows and admit it, he’s not asking you to hate them.
We end up together for a reason. I know I couldn’t be with anyone else because I am so demanding. I asked him last night while we were walking home together if he regretted it at all, being married to someone who asks so much of him, and he said not for a second.
He says he wishes I didn’t tell the world about his airplane diaper rash, but that he loves me anyway.
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August 12th, 2009 on 2:43 pm
Jenna & TH - much love to both of you. I have read most of the comments and so many frustrate me to no end, while others I just want to send hugs to for ‘getting it’. A marriage is a team, a partnership. In any partnership both parties make changes and compromises to benefit each other. My FI doesn’t go to strip clubs/bars even when his buddies do, doesn’t make extreme purchases without talking them over with me first and is trying to lose weight to be healthier for himself, me and our future children. I do all of the following and also have learned to control my emotions (particularly my temper), learned to be a better cook and housekeeper and curbed my online shopping. We both do these things because it makes our overall relationship better.
I commend Jenna & TH on the tv thing. Kudos to you both
We don’t have children yet, but not partaking in media that is uncomfortable for you and that you deem inappropriate for your children is respectable. My dad is in law enforcement and he enjoyed watching COPs and America’s Most Wanted. However, as a child being in the living room while he watched these shows gave me nightmares and to this day I’m overly wary of being home alone overnight, walking in dark parking lots and well crime in general. It makes me think about our future family and I just find it so admirable that these are issues that you talked about, compromise about and resolve to suit your life and your family. You will be truly amazing parents
And just in dealing with the haters - my FI and I are dealing with personal issues with family right now who are hating on us and our relationship and a good friend told me last night she thinks God brought us together to help show the family members a better way and teach them. God is always watching and loving and doors open for reasons unknown to us sometimes. Maybe these comments and posts will open the eyes of someone else.
Just my thoughts. *love and hugs to you both*
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August 12th, 2009 on 3:00 pm
I agree with Kathyrn that each person has to decide for themselves what they can and can’t tolerate in their own relationship. For someone who’s highest calling is to be a wife and a mother, they may be willing to tolerate a different level of domineering than another individual. I’m not one to judge that.
However, I also think it important that if people are bringing up an issue and expressing concerns about information shared in public, that the individual involved take a good look at themself and make sure they are not missing any salient points. Self-examination leads to a more aware life, while sticking one’s fingers in one’s ears saying “There’s nothing wrong here”, could eventually lead to problems that might have been nipped in the bud early on.
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August 12th, 2009 on 3:22 pm
Wow. Personally, I love this post. I love that you don’t belittle your husband on your blog or talk about his faults. My mom told me that once. That as a wife, you are to be his biggest cheerleader. That doesn’t mean not standing up to him when he’s wrong. That means not berating him to others, or complaining about him, or joining in the “woe is me, my husband is a jerk” camp. Obviously you don’t mind these principles he has - in fact, many of them are likely reasons you wanted to marry him! My fiance feels the same way about my weight - but never neglects to tell me I’m beautiful. I agree with not watching trash - and encourage him not to. And debt - totally something we work on together. I respect your relationship, and I’m sorry that many of your readers have taken it so out of context. I am an attorney, and a very headstrong one at that. Yet, I believe in what the Scripture says, about wives being submissive to our husbands. Not in an abused way (I would never stand for that), but I believe that God has placed the man as the head of his family. And as hard as it is for me sometimes, I try to submit myself to my husband’s leadership - but I do not hesitate to give him my opinion many times.
All that to say, thank you for writing this. I personally find it refreshing.
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August 12th, 2009 on 3:53 pm
Typical Mor[m]on doormat wifey. Makes me glad to be single.
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August 12th, 2009 on 3:57 pm
Jenna,
I, too, have been following you since Weddingbee (LOVED your wedding), but this is my first time commenting. I’m not sure what to say other than I wish more people would follow the rule my parents drummed into me as a kid: “If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all.” I admire you for sharing so much about your life online, and I don’t think that bravery/confidence should be rewarded with malicious and hurtful comments. You are happy with your life (it shows!) and TH seems like a FANTASTIC husband - maybe not for someone else, but perfect for you. Keep on being fabulous
p.s. The first reason I came to comment was because I saw your tweet about cookies/cupcakes/7-layer bars, and my response is more than 140 characters — but couldn’t find any of those comments to reply to, so here it is: it seems like you are trying very hard to lose weight (good for you), and those types of sweets might be counterproductive. Two of my favorite Minimally Destructive to Diet sweets are fudgsicles and weight watchers brand peanut butter cookies. Not sure if/how those fit in with your faith or eating practices, just wanted to share.
Cheer up, we love you!
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August 12th, 2009 on 4:49 pm
These are the sorts of changes women expect to make to their husbands all the time, with very little accusations of being “domineering.” I wouldn’t marry a guy if I couldn’t trust him financially. I might not marry him if he wouldn’t give up smoking, or drugs, or porn, or strip clubs or gambling. I might not marry him if he insisted on regular “Boys Nights.”
It’s not because I’m bad, or nagging, or domineering. It’s because I want our hypothetical marriage to work. Some things you can’t “change” about a person, but their habits are not necessarily part of the essence you love.
I admit to feeling concerned about some aspects of this post, but that’s only because what is important to TH is not what’s important to me. And I don’t get to decide what’s important for you, so I won’t.
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August 12th, 2009 on 5:50 pm
To the Ashleys and those saying TH is abusive. As a survivor of an abusive relationship, and an actual friend of Jenna’s I can honestly say that in no way do I think TH is abusive at all.
Is Jenna restricted by who she can or cannot talk to? Does she walk with her eyes cast down for fear of being accused of some irrational thought? Does she isolate herself from her friends and family, for fear they might see what she doesn’t want to admit to herself?
No, I don’t think so. Nor do I think the things I mentioned are the only signs of abuse, but typically victims isolate themselves (or are isolated) and Jenna isn’t doing that. Heck, she’s flying across the country to hang out at my wedding…ALONE! Gasp! Without TH or a chaperon! Why? Because she is independent and is free to make her own choices.
Stop projecting your own experiences onto her.
Why must so many of you be so downright rude when you comment? Didn’t your parents ever teach you manners? Respectfully disagreeing is one thing, but some of these comments seem over the line.
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August 12th, 2009 on 6:40 pm
Wow. You are the saddest, most manipulated wife I have ever come in contact with.
Is your husband bitter about the whole Holocaust thing…and that’s the reason he is being a dictator in your marriage?
So. So. So. Bleak.
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August 12th, 2009 on 11:22 pm
“Elizabeth says:
August 11, 2009 at 1:08 pm
It’s all about your own beliefs - for me, I would look at my husband as completely controlling if he spoke about what I watched on television. HOWEVER, I do not have the same religious beliefs as you.”
While I won’t comment on Jenna’s post because it’s too late in the day for me to write something that makes sense (
), I will say that I do worry sometimes that people take what is said on Jenna’s blog and apply it to the majority of the LDS population. I’m LDS, and I disagree with many of the things Jenna says (while, of course, wholeheartedly supporting other things she says). I don’t like the idea of people generalizing Mormons any more than the idea of people generalizing non-Mormons. Just something to think about!
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August 13th, 2009 on 12:46 am
Hey Jenna, LLauRRa here. I just wanted to say that I think you are awesome for standing up for what you believe in. Sometimes certain values may not be agreed with or understood by others but I applaud you for having the strength to do what you feel is right. Be proud of who you are as a woman and who you are as a wife. Only two people can create the flow of their household that works for them, and only those two and God matter. So I am happy for you.
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August 13th, 2009 on 3:01 am
This blog has set women back a 100 years.
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August 13th, 2009 on 9:53 am
Well I normally wouldn’t chime in on this, but given the week I’ve had, I feel compelled to… I personally support people doing whatever makes them happy, so reading your blog has never thrown up any red flags for me. However, in the overall debate of changing for another person, I do have a comment. In high school I would have railed on the idea of changing for a husband. I would have mocked the idea in college. I would have had feministic ideals to spew all over the place. But then, on the magical day last October (same as Jenna and TH’s) I married the only man, only person, in my life, who has ever inspired me to change. He didn’t tell me to, or force me to, although sometimes I accuse him of it (when I’m mad!). He inspired change in me by showing me a better way to live, or a better way for us to get along, or a better idea in how to do something I normally do…and I’ve changed. It’s hard for me to even type that without wanting to hate myself for it…but in practice (rather than in writing) it is a beautiful thing. I enjoy the organized house I now live in, and I’m happier when I take the extra time in the morning to clean before leaving for work. I love that he has inspired me to find a workout plan that I enjoy and follow through with. He leads by example, and this is so much different than forcing me to do anything. I follow some of these things because I recognize the value they would add to my life. It IS all about consent and personal happiness. He has changed as well, but I highly doubt he’d “change back” if we were not together. We always comment that it seems we were chosen for each other for our differences. He is different from me in areas that I had always wished to improve upon, and vice versa, and together, we round each other into better people than we would be apart. It’s hard to explain-suffice to say that he fills in the necessary gaps in my life, and I fill his. He impresses upon me in positive ways, and I do the same to him. I have brought him calm, order, and integrity. He has brought me forgiveness, neatness, and unfailing kindness. We are better versions of ourselves together. We love each other for who we are, but things that make our relationship easier are merely an improvement, not a violation. It’s so hard to accept someone for who they are, but that is love. That said, change can also be a strong sign of love when inspired by your partner. He makes me want to be a better person. I find independence in self-improvement. Could anything be better?
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August 13th, 2009 on 2:30 pm
Some of these comments make me wonder if I’m “abused” or my husband is controlling because he hates it when I sleep until noon, and when he comes home from working all day and I have done NOTHING other than waste the day on the ‘net, or because he pushes me to keep working out so I can lose the weight I’ve put on since meeting him (Which I complain about constantly, but I’m a lazy bones and would prefer to sit around all day).. or even because I hated that he was smoking pot/partying before we were even dating exclusively. (And you know what? He gave that stuff up willingly when he was considering having a serious relationship with me. He hasn’t touched the stuff since then, and he doesn’t regret it for a second.)
Or maybe I’m controlling him because I tell him he is NEVER allowed to talk about me in a negative or even seemingly negative way to another female. (his mom would be an exception.) Oh, and I’ve picked out his clothes for him several times.. or told him to change his shirt because another one would look better. (I kinda married a slob - lol)
Shoot, maybe my mother-in-law is controlling us because she told us we’re not allowed to have any more pets.. or that we need to mow our lawn more often.. or that we need to have certain things paid off/fixed up before we have kids. (And no, we do not live with her. She does live 2 houses from us though.)
(No offense to all of you out there yelling “ABUSE!” I’m not shrugging off the seriousness of *real* abusive relationships AT ALL.)
I have to agree that sometimes the way you put things out there makes it sound like your husband may be controlling.. and these days, it seems that a lot of woman take serious offense to *any* man telling them what they can and can’t do.
But a person has to have standards. It sounds like you both knew what the other wanted and didn’t want in their lives before you married, so it wasn’t exactly sprung on either of you. Obviously these are things that are accepted between the two of you and are done out of love. That’s just my opinion.
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August 13th, 2009 on 3:22 pm
Holy comments batman!
Well, I’m obviously a little late to this post’s comments!
Anyway, I think that everyone needs a healthy dose of “if you can’t say anything nice…” Its shocking to me how appalled some people are trying to seem. While some of the limits in your home would never fly in mine… none of them come off as abusive or controlling. You did a good job explaining the sentiment behind each potentially controversial statement.
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August 13th, 2009 on 3:23 pm
Oh, and I love that photo. its just too cute.
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August 13th, 2009 on 4:36 pm
I think the confusion comes in when it “sounds” like the TH’s decision over Jenna’s choice.I think this might be purposeful on Jenna’s part as she demonstrates submission in marriage (a major part of her religion). What someone might see as abuse is actually her demonstrating faithfulness to god. TH was clear with her before marriage. Do I sometimes cringe at the way it is phrased (as if she doesn’t have a choice)? Yes. Does it seem like less of a partnership than what I have? Yes. But I’m not married to TH. Jenna is. I have the marriage I want, and Jenna has the marriage she wants. At the most this could be considered a controlling husband, not abusive. I think that’s really harsh and unfair to say about him.
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August 25th, 2009 on 6:10 pm
Well, first of all, I’ve never commented, but I followed you here post weddingbee and I like reading your blog.
Your life is much different than mine, the main difference being religion. While your household functions differently than mine, and I don’t know if I could walk in your shoes, I’ve never thought, oh my goodness, that husband is such a jerk Never! He seems like a caring man. There are plenty of things every husband/wife needs in a relationship, and if these things are discussed before marriage, I do not see a problem. You know who you are marrying.
I was not okay with my husband doing any sort of illegal drug (which he had in the past) and I made that known before we even started dating. Does that make me controlling? No, it’s just something I don’t want in my life. I am also not okay with debt, and want someone who is responsible and will pay their bills on time, and I made this known to him. He didn’t have much debt, but is very careful now about bills because he knows it is important to me that we be financially responsible.
Anyway, I just wanted to add my two cents. If you are happy and he is happy, that is what is most important.
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August 28th, 2009 on 10:33 am
Wow, I love your this post Jenna. It is great that your husband has high standards (as I am sure you do too) and neither settled for less. My husband and I also believe in being debt-free (aside from a mortgage payment). I think these because you have these standards in your life you will have a great marraige. I used to watch those Tv shows as well, and I’d love for our family to have such standards in tv/movies as you do. Your submission to your husband is admirable, God will bless your relationship because of it. Thank you for this post.
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September 4th, 2009 on 2:10 pm
Dear dear Jenna,
It’s taken me so long to respond to all of this. But I really wanted to and I just really wanted to take the time to read carefully. I have not read all the other comments, man, there are so many by now. Jenna, I understand completely why and how your write about your relationship with your husband. Maybe because I am a christian and we do share some of the same standards. I have never thought of you or your husband as being weird, over the top, unhealthy or anything. It just speaks love. As a matter of fact, I have been wanting to take a course with you….. really. The fact that I am 36 will not make me an easy fit for a husband. I am so set in my own ways, yet I do long to have a husband who I will lead me, who I will let myself be led by. There can only be one captain, and a captain can be captain when the people around him let him. I think it was very honorable and honest of your husband to let his wishes and concerns out before marriage, and frankly, if one reads well, it speaks of love. Your weight is not about just being attractive, we are talking health issues here that he is also concerned about. Your spending habits, man, better a good talk now than too late. And also, he never made you marry him. He asked you some questions about you and you were willing to change, there is no force there. If anything at all, it was a loving wake up call. Your husband is very strong and courageous to bring these things up. I know you both needed to change to make this marriage work. Of course there are things like the things you watch on tv that might be taken as “over the top”, on the other hand, there is some truth to it. Watching tv often isn’t a healthy thing, we could do many other things that are way better. Yes, some things seem excessive (the tv part would be hard for me) or when you write “TH will let me” but I don’t think your husband says anything out of domination, ruling, being bossy, controlling or anything. Truly, you are a great example to me!
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October 6th, 2009 on 3:22 pm
Reading this has left me wondering something. As you’ve said your husband has standards and you try to meet them. Would he give you the same courtesy? If you had some standard that could make or break your relationship, would your husband have made the same changes as you have?
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December 16th, 2009 on 10:53 pm
Great post. It sounds like you might be interested in checking out our blog - husbandveruswife.com. We’re letting readers decide who’s right and wrong in our marital disagreements
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